Better D: Oilers vs. Canucks

[strattonius]

Nurse was so good he made Ceci relevant again

I think Nurse is a good defenseman.

But you're saying Hughes is bad defensively pretending like you have a clue what you're talking about and trying to prop up Nurse.

Hughes isn't bad defensively and Nurse is a good defenseman. They can co-exist.

 

[McPoyle]

Nurse again being severely underrated in this thread. Article just put out by the Athletic by analytics writer Dom Luszczyszyn has him in the top 100 NHL players for next season.

"While Darnell Nurse did not replicate his offensive output from 2020-21, he is still a true top-flight defender. It’s rare to find a big defenseman who can skate the way he can, who is as physical as he is, and who also provides some offense."

Nurse was placed in tier 4A, along with other players such as Rielly and Weegar.

But yeah a #4 on most teams right guys??

 

[Three On Zero]

As an oilers fan pointed out while
complimenting the better team the Canucks have yesterday. After coaching
Change the oilers allowed the 11th least goals while the Canucks allowed the 3rd least.

I know which group I would take

 

[McPoyle]

As an oilers fan pointed out while
complimenting the better team the Canucks have yesterday. After coaching
Change the oilers allowed the 11th least goals while the Canucks allowed the 3rd least.

I know which group I would take

11th least with the ghost of Keith plying big minutes. Look for that number to continue down this year.

That Canucks have to rely of Demko bailing them out on the huge number of chances they give up. May he can continue to, but his defense doesn't do him any favours.

At 5v5 last year the canucks were a sub 50% corsi team. They have an expected GA at 5v5 of 179, an actual GA at 5v5 of 143. That defense bled chances like crazy, thank god for Demko.

 

[Three On Zero]

11th least with the ghost of Keith plying big minutes. Look for that number to continue down this year.

That Canucks have to rely of Demko bailing them out on the huge number of chances they give up. May he can continue to, but his defense doesn't do him any favours.

At 5v5 last year the canucks were a sub 50% corsi team. They have an expected GA at 5v5 of 179, an actual GA at 5v5 of 143. That defense bled chances like crazy, thank god for Demko.

Oh they were terrible outside of the sample size with Bruce

 

[McPoyle]

Oh they were terrible outside of the sample size with Bruce

It did continue under him after the new coach bump. That team still bled chances but had good goaltending to cover it up. Maybe Demko can continue to bail them out, or the team system improves in front of him. We will see.

 

[Three On Zero]

It did continue under him after the new coach bump. That team still bled chances but had good goaltending to cover it up. Maybe Demko can continue to bail them out, or the team system improves in front of him. We will see.

All metrics improved, it wasn’t solely Demko being as good as he is

But really I hate using small sample sizes like coaching changes for Tippet / Green

 

[McPoyle]

All metrics improved, it wasn’t solely Demko being as good as he is

But really I hate using small sample sizes like coaching changes for Tippet / Green

Metrics improved but the problems still existed as they have for years. Canucks give up lots of chances, thankfully for them they have a good goalie to bail them out.

 

[AvStock]

Horrible take. HFBoards Nurse slander has gone too far. He is so much better than OEL, as is Bouchard

Again, I wonder why HF boards hates him so much. Does it have to do with the way he looks?....

 

[Three On Zero]

Again, I wonder why HF boards hates him so much. Does it have to do with the way he looks?....

He’s just not that good for the contract he got

 

[Lavar Ball]

Again, I wonder why HF boards hates him so much. Does it have to do with the way he looks?....

Beats me. His contract is terrible for what he is and he is overrated by some in the mainstream hockey media but he is underrated on HFBoards.

He is a very solid defenseman. Way the hell better than current day OEL

 

[bossram]

As a Vancouverite, it's probably the Oilers.

Hughes is the best player here, but there really is not much behind him. Nurse is way overpaid, but a top-four of him, Ceci (who is underrated defensively), Bouchard, and Kulak (again, very underrated) is serviceable for a playoff team. I think they can also expect Broberg to help out the group.

 

[Three On Zero]

As a Vancouverite, it's probably the Oilers.

Hughes is the best player here, but there really is not much behind him. Nurse is way overpaid, but a top-four of him, Ceci (who is underrated defensively), Bouchard, and Kulak (again, very underrated) is serviceable for a playoff team. I think they can also expect Broberg to help out the group.

I mentioned earlier that the decision really depends on how Bouchard and Broberg perform this yes

Bouchard takes another step forward and Broberg is serviceable, Edmonton wins based on better depth

 

[belair]

Theoretically claiming “few years” both teams have equally won the same number of playoff series

They have had a better D for the past few seasons. And with Broberg and Bouchard cementing themselves as full-time players over the next few seasons on a team likely to be among the league's elite, odds are they'll continue to have the better defense.

Vancouver isn't improving. Their prospects are of minimal impact and they don't have a lot of cap flexibility moving forward. It's in their best interest for their defense to get worse.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I mentioned earlier that the decision really depends on how Bouchard and Broberg perform this yes

Bouchard takes another step forward and Broberg is serviceable, Edmonton wins based on better depth

I think that’s fair although I’m not as bullish on Broberg as some.
The Oilers lost Keith who a lot of Oiler fans said played well last year in the top 4. I don’t see anyone who replaces him this year at least.

 

[Three On Zero]

They have had a better D for the past few seasons. And with Broberg and Bouchard cementing themselves as full-time players over the next few seasons on a team likely to be among the league's elite, odds are they'll continue to have the better defense.

Vancouver isn't improving. Their prospects are of minimal impact and they don't have a lot of cap flexibility.

Edmonton is entering cap hell while, Vancouver is slowly getting out of it.

Canucks don’t need high impact prospects, what this rendition of the team needs is more middling players. Vancouver can rely less on prospects and more on UFA signings due to being an attractive market

I think that’s fair although I’m not as bullish on Broberg as some.
The Oilers lost Keith who a lot of Oiler fans said played well last year in the top 4. I don’t see anyone who replaces him this year at least.

Keith far exceeded what I thought he would do. Guy still had some gas in the tank

 

[belair]

Edmonton is entering cap hell while, Vancouver is slowly getting out of it.

Canucks don’t need high impact prospects, what this rendition of the team needs is more middling players. Vancouver can rely less on prospects and more on UFA signings due to being an attractive market.

You're the second person who has said that and I'm not sure you've looked at the payroll.

They've got $14m opening up next summer with Bouchard and a handful of depth guys to lock up. By the time McDavid and Draisaitl are up for new deals, things will likely be very different with a number of the prospects ready to step in and the cap being significantly higher than it is today.

The majority of Edmonton's competitive core already has a contract for the short-term future. Guys like Puljujarvi, Yamamoto, Foegele, etc can easily be moved and replaced internally of via the UFA market considering Edmonton has been a prime spot for FAs looking to boost their stock.

Vancouver? They won't be in the free agent market next summer because Bo Horvat likely ties up all of their flexibility. Two years from now they might have a little bit of money to throw around, but Pettersson probably takes a pretty penny to lock up. Vancouver is in limbo.

 

[Three On Zero]

You're the second person who has said that and I'm not sure you've looked at the payroll.

They've got $14m opening up next summer with Bouchard and a handful of depth guys to lock up. By the time McDavid and Draisaitl are up for new deals, things will likely be very different with a number of the prospects ready to step in. The majority of Edmonton's competitive core already has a contract.

Vancouver? They won't be in the free agent market next summer because Bo Horvat likely ties up all of their flexibility. Two years from now they might have a little bit of money to throw around, but Pettersson probably takes a pretty penny to lock up. Vancouver is in limbo.

13 million with only 13 forwards signed, Bouchard is going to take a big chunk of that ( and they still can’t afford to sign McLeod this year)

Next season the Canucks have 15 million with 14 signed, Horvat isn’t really scheduled for a big raise over his current pay if he’s even with the team

 

[belair]

13 million with only 13 forwards signed, Bouchard is going to take a big chunk of that ( and they still can’t afford to sign McLeod this year)

Next season the Canucks have 15 million with 14 signed, Horvat isn’t really scheduled for a big raise over his current pay if he’s even with the team

They've got 7 forwards signed. But you're talking about bottom six forwards. Bourgault, Holloway, McLeod are all around $1m a piece. Like I said, the $2-3m guys are easily movable and signings like Ryan, Janmark, Archibald, Chiasson, etc will continue to be available to us.

Teams with cap issues have vital players they can't afford to keep. That's not a concern in Edmonton moving forward. They'll probably be in the buyer's market for the next few deadlines.

My point is that Edmonton's depth specifically on defense is good and getting better. I don't see Vancouver's getting deeper. They're desperate to shed guys like Myers and OEL. It's in their best interest to trade them. They're two teams going in different directions.

 

[Three On Zero]

They've got 7 forwards signed. But you're talking about bottom six forwards. Bourgault, Holloway, McLeod are all around $1m a piece. Like I said, the $2-3m guys are easily movable and signings like Ryan, Janmark, Archibald, Chiasson, etc will continue to be available to us.

Teams with cap issues have vital players they can't afford to keep. That's not a concern in Edmonton moving forward. They'll probably be in the buyer's market for the next few deadlines.

My point is that Edmonton's depth specifically on defense is good and getting better. I don't see Vancouver's getting deeper. They're desperate to shed guys like Myers and OEL. It's in their best interest to trade them. They're two teams going in different directions.

With big contracts coming for Draisaitl and McDavid it would be very near sighted for Holland to squander the minimal cap he can save, Skinner also is going to need a raise


We aren’t desperate to shed those players , likely one gets moved but it’s not a dire need, they’ve both performed well (even though overpaid slightly). The only real issue we have is if Kuzmenko plays phenomenal and we need to try and re-sign him. Although dropping Horvat to pay Kuzmenko would be a good move based on team needs

Less depth players to sign with more cap to play with = in a better cap situation

Edmonton’s defensive depth also only gets better better if Broberg and Bouchard progress

 

[WetcoastOrca]

With big contracts coming for Draisaitl and McDavid it would be very near sighted for Holland to squander the minimal cap he can save, Skinner also is going to need a raise


We aren’t desperate to shed those players , likely one gets moved but it’s not a dire need, they’ve both performed well (even though overpaid slightly). The only real issue we have is if Kuzmenko plays phenomenal and we need to try and re-sign him. Although dropping Horvat to pay Kuzmenko would be a good move based on team needs

Less depth players to sign with more cap to play with = in a better cap situation

Edmonton’s defensive depth also only gets better better if Broberg and Bouchard progress

Yeah I’d say Edmonton has slightly better depth but a team that relied on big minutes for Ceci, Keith and Barrie is not deep. Broberg or one of the other young Edmonton prospects may or may not pan out as a top 4 guy. It’s way too early to say. The same with Rathbone or Dermott for Vancouver. I don’t think either team has a strong prospect pool so they would need to be lucky.
Both teams have bad contracts on D with Nurse and OEL which hamper their cap moving forward. Myers has only a couple of years left and should be moveable.
But currently and going forward both teams have a poor D and not a lot of cap space to improve it the next couple of years. I think Vancouver probably moves a forward (where they have very good depth) to address it especially if Kuzmenko pans out.

 

[belair]

With big contracts coming for Draisaitl and McDavid it would be very near sighted for Holland to squander the minimal cap he can save, Skinner also is going to need a raise


We aren’t desperate to shed those players , likely one gets moved but it’s not a dire need, they’ve both performed well (even though overpaid slightly). The only real issue we have is if Kuzmenko plays phenomenal and we need to try and re-sign him. Although dropping Horvat to pay Kuzmenko would be a good move based on team needs

Less depth players to sign with more cap to play with = in a better cap situation

Edmonton’s defensive depth also only gets better better if Broberg and Bouchard progress

If Vancouver is convinced they can compete in this league, the improvement needs to come from somewhere. They're a team that's treading water for the next two seasons.

I'm not suggesting that OEL and Myers aren't performing well. But they're taking up a lot of Vancouver's cap flexibility. And until they're gone, that money isn't coming from anywhere else.

And you suggested that Edmonton is "headed for cap hell". I clearly showed you why they're in the same position as most cap teams, fitting depth player in on league minimum deals. Their prospect depth will ensure there's a consistent influx of cheap depth over the next three or four seasons.

 

[Three On Zero]

If Vancouver is convinced they can compete in this league, the improvement needs to come from somewhere. They're a team that's treading water for the next two seasons.

I'm not suggesting that OEL and Myers aren't performing well. But they're taking up a lot of Vancouver's cap flexibility. And until they're gone, that money isn't coming from anywhere else.

And you suggested that Edmonton is "headed for cap hell". I clearly showed you why they're in the same position as most cap teams, fitting depth player in on league minimum deals. Their prospect depth will ensure there's a consistent influx of cheap depth over the next three or four seasons.

Canucks don’t need to worry about a McDavid/Draisaitl raise which could easily combined be north 7-8 million on top of what they make now. That’s why they are in a better situation

And again, terrible sample size but they were somewhere around a top 10 team under Boudreau, not a cup contender but still strong enough core to be competitive if that continues

 

[McPoyle]

Canucks don’t need to worry about a McDavid/Draisaitl raise which could easily combined be north 7-8 million on top of what they make now. That’s why they are in a better situation

In other words the Canucks don't have top tier players on their roster.

Galaxy brain thinking to try and spin that into a positive.

Those two contracts are up in 3 and 4 years. Cap will be 10+ mil higher by that point. Oilers cap situation if perfectly fine.

 

[Three On Zero]

Yeah I’d say Edmonton has slightly better depth but a team that relied on big minutes for Ceci, Keith and Barrie is not deep. Broberg or one of the other young Edmonton prospects may or may not pan out as a top 4 guy. It’s way too early to say. The same with Rathbone or Dermott for Vancouver. I don’t think either team has a strong prospect pool so they would need to be lucky.
Both teams have bad contracts on D with Nurse and OEL which hamper their cap moving forward. Myers has only a couple of years left and should be moveable.
But currently and going forward both teams have a poor D and not a lot of cap space to improve it the next couple of years. I think Vancouver probably moves a forward (where they have very good depth) to address it especially if Kuzmenko pans out.

Neither team has much coming up for defence, what they ice this year is pretty much it, they both need some good draft hits if they don’t sell off too many picks