Better Conn Smythe performance: 2017 Sidney Crosby or 2018 Alex Ovechkin?

[Sidney the Kidney]

It's a 3 round trophy now, eh?

Fleury had nice numbers in the playoffs - the ENTIRE playoffs. .927 is very nice. But it isn't all-time great.

There is no rational basis for excluding the SCF from the equation for evaluating a Conn Smythe candidate. You did it, not because it's rational, but because you knew you NEEDED to in order to get your desired result - which is to say I am somehow inconsistent. Which I am not.

I mean, you're essentially awarding Couture the CS for what he did in the first 3 rounds. He had 6 points in 6 games in the final, with 3 of those points (a goal and 2 assists) coming in one game. So eh had 3 points in the 5 other games in the finals.

He had 24 points coming into the finals. That's where his production came from, what he did in Rounds 1, 2 and 3. The Pens kept him in check other than Game 5.

So why wouldn't I focus on what Fleury did in the first 3 rounds when that's where Couture also put up the vast majority of his points? He certainly didn't do it against the Pens in the finals.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I just checked the game logs, Crosby was only involved in the GWG in 3/8 of the Pens final 8 games (and 3/10, and 5/13).

I also don't know why you are lumping me in with the Kessel argument (that I never brought up or mentioned on here). I straight up said that I don't agree with the statement that Couture deserved the Smythe. But you can't deny that he wasn't better than Crosby in that post-season. He lead the SCF in points and goals (Crosby was in a 5-way tie for 3rd, and 22nd in goals), and also had a much better post-season as a whole.

I'm pretty sure he meant involved in 6 of the Pens final 8 games that the Pens *won* that year. Obviously he's not going to be involved in the GWG in a loss.

Crosby had 3 game winners versus Tampa, so the only win he didn't have a point on the GWG was Rust's goal in Game 7. Then versus San Jose in the finals, he had an assist on the Game 1 winner, the Game 2 winner, and the Game 6 winner. The only one he didn't have a point on was the Game 4 winner.

So out of the Pens final 8 wins (4 versus Tampa, 4 versus San Jose) Crosby had a point on 6 out of those 8 winning goals. Which is what he said.

 

[Bouboumaster]

2021 Carey Price ftw

 

[Marmoset]

I thought multiple players on the Penguins could easily and probably should have won over Crosby that season. There was no obvious candidate on the Caps beyond OV.

 

[daver]

I thought multiple players on the Penguins could easily and probably should have won over Crosby that season. There was no obvious candidate on the Caps beyond OV.

In 2017? Like who?

OV's linemate had five more points and scored one of the biggest goals in franchise history to knock off the Pens.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I thought multiple players on the Penguins could easily and probably should have won over Crosby that season. There was no obvious candidate on the Caps beyond OV.

Talk about ridiculous bias. Who on the Pens should have won it over Crosby in 2017? *Maybe* Malkin for finishing a whopping 1 point ahead? So one is now "multiple"?

Meanwhile, Kuznetsov finished 5 points ahead of Ovechkin, Holtby went 16-7 with a 2.16 GAA and .922 save percentage, yet there were no other obvious candidates on the Caps?

The ridiculous downplaying of Crosby's achievements on this site are laughable.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I mean, you're essentially awarding Couture the CS for what he did in the first 3 rounds. He had 6 points in 6 games in the final, with 3 of those points (a goal and 2 assists) coming in one game. So eh had 3 points in the 5 other games in the finals.

He had 24 points coming into the finals. That's where his production came from, what he did in Rounds 1, 2 and 3. The Pens kept him in check other than Game 5.

So why wouldn't I focus on what Fleury did in the first 3 rounds when that's where Couture also put up the vast majority of his points? He certainly didn't do it against the Pens in the finals.

Couture had 1.00 PPG and .33 GPG in the finals, which is pretty good. That pace alone was significantly better than Crosby's 2016 postseason pace. Crosby was well under a PPG that year - .67 PPG and 0.00 GPG in the finals and .79 PPG and .25 GPG in totality.

So no, I'm not just basing it on the first 3 rounds.

Logan Couture had more goals, more points, and more primary points than Sidney Crosby in the finals. He also had more goals, more points, and more primary points than Sidney Crosby in the first 3 rounds. He also played a larger defensive role (PK over a minute per game vs 10 seconds for Sid), took a higher percentage of defensive zone starts, was scored on less, while scoring 58% more points than Sid.

Any which way you slice it, Couture was the better individual player that year in the playoffs. It's really not debatable.

Crosby's pace:
65 points, 21 goals, GF% of 47%

Couture's pace:
103 points, 34 goals, GF% of 56.6%.

The difference between them is as stark as the difference between Hart winning Sidney Crosby (104 points, 36 goals) and Bryan Little (64 points, 23 goals) in 2014. You are taking the side of Little winning the Hart over Sid.

The only case for Crosby in 2016 is that his teammates were better with Sid off the ice than Couture's teammates were when Couture was off the ice. That is arbitrary.

I've read enough of your posts to see you make some pretty rational and decent arguments. You have to know you are stretching here, or at least you can see my point.

 

[Gurglesons]

Even though I am in the camp that thinks Couture had a better playoffs than Crosby that year, I do think Letang should have won the Conn Smythe that year. Letang was amazing in the SCF that year, and one of the three reasons the Penguins were absolutely dominate, the other two were the third-line mismatch made worse due to Hertl's injury and DeBoer's insistence on running Roman Polak over Dylan DeMelo. The only reason the series went six games was Martin Jones.

I’m not sure how any honest fan of the game that is not trying to discredit the Penguins takes anyone on the Sharks. I was at multiple games in the tank and their fans were apologetic about their performance.

But don’t worry, @Midnight Judges has got you covered on the basics of skewing statistics and graph data. He is a regular Don Draper.

 

[Voight]

Vegas walked through the entire conference and it wasn't because Fleury was channeling 2015 Lundqvist, the team was awesome. Fleury was too but his play wasn't some massive disparity to make this remotely a conversation.

This + that entire team pretty much had career years.

No goalie has done what Fleury did in 2018 in regards to GA and SV% through the first three rounds. So yes. It was.

Fleury was better than Giguere. Then he turned into the real Fleury.

LOL no he wasn't. Not even close.

Giguere 2003 - 1.62GAA, .945SV%, 5 SO, 38 GA

MAF 2018 - 2.24GAA, .927SV%, 4 SO, 47 GA

 

[J bo Jeans]

Most likely Ovechkin. They both had the exact same amount of points so saying it's not close is just being dishonest. In terms of 2016, if you wanna say that Kessels 3 more points over the course of a whole playoffs while being a winger on the third line go ahead lol. It just doesn't make any sense. Ask any Pens fan if they could only have one of Kessel or Crosby on that roster in 2017 not a single one pick Kessel.

This Couture argument is a moot point. Even if Couture had a better playoffs San Jose lost LMAO. The Smythe never goes to the loser, except in the most exceptional of cases.
Recap:
Voted Ovechkin, but its close.
Crosby was more valuable to his team than Kessel in 2016 and you're a Crosby hater if you can't see that.
Couture lost = No Smythe

 

[Midnight Judges]

In 2017? Like who?

OV's linemate had five more points and scored one of the biggest goals in franchise history to knock off the Pens.

And who had the primary assist due to solid defensive positioning that sprung him for that breakaway? (Hint: Ovechkin).

The backbreaking late third period or OT GWGs in that series were:

Ovie + Vrana

Ovie + Backstrom

Ovie + Kuznetsov

See the pattern?

 

[Midnight Judges]

This + that entire team pretty much had career years.



LOL no he wasn't. Not even close.

Giguere 2003 - 1.62GAA, .945SV%, 5 SO, 38 GA

MAF 2018 - 2.24GAA, .927SV%, 4 SO, 47 GA

Exactly right. If we isolate the 2018 playoffs and surrounding 2 years on either side (total of 5 years), there were 11 goalies with 20 games played or more. Among them, 2018 Fleury had the 4th best save %, and 8th best GAA. Average of 6th place out of 11.

So no, in totality it's not some legendary performance. It's actually quite average for a cup finalist goalie.

NHL Stats

 

[Gurglesons]

LOL no he wasn't. Not even close.

Giguere 2003 - 1.62GAA, .945SV%, 5 SO, 38 GA

MAF 2018 - 2.24GAA, .927SV%, 4 SO, 47 GA

Prior to the Stanley Cup Final which is what I was referencing, MAF put up the best GAA and SV in NHL history through the first three rounds.

 

[Wings4Life]

"Sid avoided contact", lmfao (Malkin had a whopping 4 more hits than Crosby that playoffs).

Besides throwing bigger hits and more hits, Malkin also fought Subban, which was a turning point in the SCF.

When did Sid drop the gloves in the playoffs again?

 

[412 Others]

Besides throwing bigger hits and more hits, Malkin also fought Subban, which was a turning point in the SCF.

When did Sid drop the gloves in the playoffs again?

Players of Sid's caliber only drop the gloves for the post-series handshake. That's if he deems the opposing team/fanbase worthy. Not always the case (2009). I trust Sid's judgement.

 

[bobholly39]

Prior to the Stanley Cup Final which is what I was referencing, MAF put up the best GAA and SV in NHL history through the first three rounds.

lol no. Giguere was absolutely insane through rounds 1-3. It's in the finals he became more human. If you look at only 3 rounds, his edge on MAF is even bigger.

first 3 rounds Giguere in 2003: 14 games, 12 wins 2 losses, 960 sv%, 4 shutouts, 1.22 GAA. 496 shots against
first 3 rounds Fleury in 2018: 15 games, 12 wins 3 losses, 947 sv%, 4 shutouts, 1.68 GAA 505 shots against

Giguere was absolutely better, and he did so on a team that was worst than Vegas

 

[Syrinx]

You want to award the conn smythe based on hits?

Absolutely. Brooks Orpik deserved in in 2009.

 

[nowhereman]

Besides throwing bigger hits and more hits, Malkin also fought Subban, which was a turning point in the SCF.

When did Sid drop the gloves in the playoffs again?

So Malkin's case over Sid is so non-existent that you have to resort to pointing out his nothing wrestling-match with some guy after the whistle? Crosby almost doubled Gino in points that series but that fight is what's MVP-worthy to you?

And, no, it wasn't the series "turning point". The game was already 4-1 Pens, at that point, and Nashville literally won the next two games.

 

[daver]

So Malkin's case over Sid is so non-existent that you have to resort to pointing out his nothing wrestling-match with some guy after the whistle? Crosby almost doubled Gino in points that series but that's MVP-worthy to you?

And, no, it wasn't the series "turning point". The game was already 4-1 Pens, at that point, and Nashville literally won the next two games.

Crosby had an epic Game 5 in the SCF and clinched the Smythe, if he wasn't already the favorite at that point.



at the 15 second mark.

If that goes in, it is up there with Mario's iconic between Bourque's skates goal or his splitting the D goal.

 

[ESH]

I've heard this "argument" often enough and, yet, it seems no one can actually formulate any reasoning why Malkin deserved that Smythe beyond "he had one extra point in one extra game".

Anyone who watched that run knows who the more impactful player was and there's a reason why Malkin was a distant second in voting.

It’s not like you provided any reasoning for your point of view either. Just “watch and you’d see”

 

[Gurglesons]

It’s not like you provided any reasoning for your point of view either. Just “watch and you’d see”

Crosby torched the Predators in a crucial G5?