Better Conn Smythe performance: 2017 Sidney Crosby or 2018 Alex Ovechkin?

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Did you even read the rest of the post?

Yes I did. Absolutely nothing similar about their runs.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

In fairness, the thing people keep talking about with regards to Kessel/Crosby in 2016 is "he finished behind Kessel in points". Well, the gap was 3 points. Ovechkin/Kuznetsov had a bigger gap in points.

Goals don't seem to matter when it comes to Crosby if it favors him. Nobody was clamoring for Crosby to win the Conn Smythe in 2009 over Malkin when Crosby lead the playoffs in goal scoring because of the 5 point gap in points.

I thought Letang and Murray had better arguments than Kessel over Crosby. Credit to Kessel for his performances, but he was obviously freed up on the 3rd line.

I wouldn't have had a problem if Crosby won in 09. Malkin won because Crosby was obviously Detroit's main target, so on paper he had a "bad" SCF. As a result, Malkin's raw totals were too much to ignore.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I thought Letang and Murray had better arguments than Kessel over Crosby. Credit to Kessel for his performances, but he was obviously freed up on the 3rd line.

I wouldn't have had a problem if Crosby won in 09. Malkin won because Crosby was obviously Detroit's main target, so on paper he had a "bad" SCF. As a result, Malkin's raw totals were too much to ignore.

The bolded is my biggest issue whenever people say Kessel was robbed. It ignores the fact that Kessel had cushy minutes while Crosby had to go against the other team's best every night. And even then, Kessel only scored 3 more points than Crosby.

The gap in offensive production between the two didn't vastly offset the fact one was also utilized in defensive situations and in key faceoffs, while the other's job was literally to go out and produce and nothing else.

In the end, I would have been fine with any one of Crosby, Kessel, Letang, or Murray winning. Each had good arguments for, plus some arguments against. None of them were clear cut Smythe favorites. So it just looks like sour grapes when people make it sound like Crosby had no business winning over a guy who only scored 3 more points than him while having less defensive responsibility.

 

[bobholly39]

Yes I did. Absolutely nothing similar about their runs.

Good thing i didn't say their runs were similar then?

I said similar situations. And I said Ovis run was better.

 

[socko]

I saw a Pens team in 2016 that was choking. I saw a Pens team in 2017 that didn't have any of the pressure of 2016 on them. I say Phil helped prevent the 2016 choke job. I say he led the team in scoring. I say its rare for the leading scorer to come from the 3rd line. I say both the Pittsburgh and Toronto media voted for Crosby for very different reasons. Steve Simmons voted for Crosby because Phil Kessel made him look like a fool. I think the trophy was Phils. But that's like my opinion.

 

[CanadienShark]

Ovechkin. Crosby's Smythe wins were pretty weak at best.

 

[Gurglesons]

I saw a Pens team in 2016 that was choking. I saw a Pens team in 2017 that didn't have any of the pressure of 2016 on them. I say Phil helped prevent the 2016 choke job. I say he led the team in scoring. I say its rare for the leading scorer to come from the 3rd line. I say both the Pittsburgh and Toronto media voted for Crosby for very different reasons. Steve Simmons voted for Crosby because Phil Kessel made him look like a fool. I think the trophy was Phils. But that's like my opinion.

When in 2016 were the Pens choking?

 

[Gurglesons]

Crosby and Malkin were choking in round 2 vs the Caps, which they were starting to develop a reputation for. They had 4 points between them in the entire 6 game series. The HBK line is the only reason they weren't eliminated in Round 2. Say what you want about Kessel, but he doesn't choke.

I suggest rewatching that series. Crosby and Malkin produced in G2 and G4 to ice the 3-1 advantage after a questionable OT winner in G1.

HBK was huge in G6. But tbh, saying Sid and Malkin were choking that series away is kind of an overstatement.

 

[socko]

When in 2016 were the Pens choking?

2nd round - 6 games against Washington - 2 points each for Crosby and Malkin. It was a rare time I was rooting for Pittsburgh and they stunk.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby 2016: 6 goals (8 behind 1st), 19pts (11 behind 1st), 0.25 GPG, 0.79 PPG, -2.

OV 2018: 15 goals (1st), 27pts (5 behind 1st), 0.63 GPG, 1.13 PPG, +8

"extremely similar"

What's odd is we've had this conversation 10 times, and the same posters are still saying the same falsehoods.

Trying to pretend Crosby's 65 point pace / 21 goal pace as a minus player is the same as Ovie's 92 point / 51 goal pace as a plus player. -It's just plain history revision.

The other lines are "Kessel wasn't better so Crosby deserves the Smythe" and "Crosby played in all situations."

Logan Couture was far superior to Crosby in 2016 - 30 points and 10 goals as a plus player to Crosby's 19/6 as a minus player. It wasn't even close.

Also, Crosby penalty killed for 10 seconds per game. 3 penalties per game - Sid literally hopped over the boards for 3 seconds at the end of penalties after the real Pens penalty killers got a clear. One of the Canadian Conn Smythe voters actually cited Sid's penalty killing for why he deserved it.

I mean, you'd think we could at least get past the history revisions.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

I thought Crosby pretty clearly deserved it in 2017, while Kuznetsov should've won in 2018.

Therefore I voted Crosby

 

[daver]

I saw a Pens team in 2016 that was choking. I saw a Pens team in 2017 that didn't have any of the pressure of 2016 on them. I say Phil helped prevent the 2016 choke job. I say he led the team in scoring. I say its rare for the leading scorer to come from the 3rd line. I say both the Pittsburgh and Toronto media voted for Crosby for very different reasons. Steve Simmons voted for Crosby because Phil Kessel made him look like a fool. I think the trophy was Phils. But that's like my opinion.

The Pens were rolling three #1 lines with Crosby taking on the opponents # 1 line and #1 d-pairing with a 3rd liner on one wing and an AHL callup on the other. The HBK line's role was strictly an offensive one to take advantage of the Pen's depth. That the other team's #1 line didn't score was as important as Crosby's line scoring. This was key for them winning the Cup. Crosby stepped up with offense in key moments in ECF and in the SCF.

Crosby was the cornerstone of the Pens' puck possession game.

 

[socko]

The Pens were rolling three #1 lines with Crosby taking on the opponents # 1 line and #1 d-pairing with a 3rd liner on one wing and an AHL callup on the other. The HBK line's role was strictly an offensive one to take advantage of the Pen's depth. That the other team's #1 line didn't score was as important as Crosby's line scoring. This was key for them winning the Cup. Crosby stepped up with offense in key moments in ECF and in the SCF.

Crosby was the cornerstone of the Pens' puck possession game.

A line with Bonino and Hagelin was pure offense? Alrighty then. According to this Bonino had 50 blocked shots in the 2016 playoffs.

New York Rangers Free Agent Profile: Nick Bonino

 

[Iapyi]

No ifs ands or buts about it, clearly Crosby in 2017.

 

[Brucelenok]

Ovechkin pretty comfortably. He was as complete as ever those playoffs for the player he is. And 15 goals >>> 8 goals.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The Pens were rolling three #1 lines with Crosby taking on the opponents # 1 line and #1 d-pairing with a 3rd liner on one wing and an AHL callup on the other. The HBK line's role was strictly an offensive one to take advantage of the Pen's depth. That the other team's #1 line didn't score was as important as Crosby's line scoring. This was key for them winning the Cup. Crosby stepped up with offense in key moments in ECF and in the SCF.

Crosby was the cornerstone of the Pens' puck possession game.

^^Barely anything in this post is accurate. Crosby did contribute to two OT game winners.

Crosby did not take on opponent's top lines and top defense pairings any more than did Malkin's line.

Patric Hornqvist is not a 3rd line player. He was a 30 goal / 50 point player before going to the Pens.

Connor Sheary has been a productive NHL player - excellent for the Capitals this year. Playing at a 20 goal pace. He has stuck in the NHL for 5 years since then. He's not an AHL'er.

The HBK line wasn't strictly offense. Bonino and Hagelin are both superior defensive players to Sidney Crosby.

Opposing teams had no problem scoring with Crosby on the ice. In fact Crosby's on-ice goals for was a lowly 47% (Ovie's was 67% by comparison). Kessel's was also 67%. Crosby's GF% was 16th best on his own team (excluding irregular players).

 

[daver]

A line with Bonino and Hagelin was pure offense? Alrighty then. According to this Bonino had 50 blocked shots in the 2016 playoffs.

New York Rangers Free Agent Profile: Nick Bonino

They were not relied on to match up against the other team's top two lines, and were given prime O-zone starts (Kessel 79% vs. 66% for Crosby). Do you really think that Kessel was a 3rd line winger? Why do you think the Pens could afford to not have Kessel on one of the top two lines? Because Crosby has proven to be able to carry his line with any quality of wingers.

BTW, Kessel's main impact was on the PP, Bonino (15 ES points) and Hagelin (14 ES points) were carrying the HBK line more than Kessel at ES.

So Kessel got carried somewhat at ES and produced on the PP, while Crosby took on the much tougher matchups and more defensive responsibilities, and produced only three points less, while being notably clutch in the last two rounds.

 

[socko]

It was the HBK line that impressed me the most. I was really impressed with Bonino. He would have been a worthy Conn Smythe candidate. But its largely a reputation award.

 

[daver]

It was the HBK line that impressed me the most. I was really impressed with Bonino. He would have been a worthy Conn Smythe candidate. But its largely a reputation award.

No it's not.

 

[Gurglesons]

^^Barely anything in this post is accurate. Crosby did contribute to two OT game winners.

Crosby did not take on opponent's top lines and top defense pairings any more than did Malkin's line.

Patric Hornqvist is not a 3rd line player. He was a 30 goal / 50 point player before going to the Pens.

Connor Sheary has been a productive NHL player - excellent for the Capitals this year. Playing at a 20 goal pace. He has stuck in the NHL for 5 years since then. He's not an AHL'er.

The HBK line wasn't strictly offense. Bonino and Hagelin are both superior defensive players to Sidney Crosby.

Opposing teams had no problem scoring with Crosby on the ice. In fact Crosby's on-ice goals for was a lowly 47% (Ovie's was 67% by comparison). Kessel's was also 67%. Crosby's GF% was 16th best on his own team (excluding irregular players).

So by this logic Kuznetsov deserved the Smythe over Ovechkin in 2018 so you have Crosby over Ovie in this argument, correct?

 

[Wings4Life]

I've heard this "argument" often enough and, yet, it seems no one can actually formulate any reasoning why Malkin deserved that Smythe beyond "he had one extra point in one extra game".

Anyone who watched that run knows who the more impactful player was and there's a reason why Malkin was a distant second in voting.

Let's see: Malkin scored the most points, scored 2 more goals than Crosby, 3 goals in the SCF to Sid's 1, played way more physical, while Sid avoided contact?

 

[nowhereman]

Let's see: Malkin scored the most points, scored 2 more goals than Crosby, 3 goals in the SCF to Sid's 1, played way more physical, while Sid avoided contact?

I know it's a cliche but I suggest you go back and actually watch that Cup run again, particularly the Finals (where Crosby was the best player on the ice), rather than just looking at the boxscores. If you know what you're looking at, you'll realize why Crosby ran away with the voting. It should mitigate more nonsensical comments like "Sid avoided contact", lmfao (Malkin had a whopping 4 more hits than Crosby that playoffs).

 

[Wings4Life]

2017. Sid wins in a push though due to reputation and captaincy, so whatever.

Pretty much sums it up.

 

[Midnight Judges]

So by this logic Kuznetsov deserved the Smythe over Ovechkin in 2018 so you have Crosby over Ovie in this argument, correct?

By what logic?

The aspect that made Ovechkin the more impactful player than Kuznetsov was physicality. Also Ovechkin's presence opened up tons of space for Kuznetsov - as it does for everyone who plays on a line (or on the power play) with Ovie.

 

[Gurglesons]

By what logic?

The aspect that made Ovechkin the more impactful player than Kuznetsov was physicality. Also Ovechkin's presence opened up tons of space for Kuznetsov - as it does for everyone who plays on a line (or on the power play) with Ovie.

So physicality matters when comparing Crosby and Kessel too in 2016?