Better All-Time: Jaromir Jagr Or Dominik Hasek?

[tarheelhockey]

I do not like polls comparing a skaters value vs a goalie it makes no sense

One could say the same about forwards vs defensemen. Or wingers vs centers.

At the end of the day it’s just a fun conversation, the arguments don’t have to hold up in a court of law.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Hasek could've possibly had a better career if he'd started earlier. As it stands, I can't rank them anything but equal. They both had a six-seven-ish year period where they were the at the top of the league.

 

[Hippasus]

Jagr had that best player in the league aura in the latter-half of the 90s that Hasek didn't, in my opinion, as amazing as the latter was. Jagr had it all: puck protection, speed, passing, shot. The longevity or career aspect should really count for something too.

 

[bucks_oil]

Hasek: Hart, Hart, Vezina, Vezina, Vezina, Vezina, Vezina, Vezina
* Most Harts of any goalie ever. In 100 years, only 4 other goalies have ever won a Hart
* 2nd most Vezina of any goalie AND he played in an era with Hall of Famer's Brodeur and Roy, so the competition was high

Jagr: Hart, Ross, Ross, Ross, Ross, Ross
* Only one Hart trophy (does not rank)
* Five Art Ross, 4th most

Hasek changed the entire conversation about (philosophically) how to play goalie... his particular moves were unorthodox, but what he was doing (seeing the net as the puck does, and then blocking that space) has been highly influential for any goalie who relies on anything other than "standard blocking style".

With much due respect to Jagr, I don't see this one as particularly close.

Jagr had that best player in the league aura in the latter-half of the 90s that Hasek didn't, in my opinion, as amazing as the latter was. Jagr had it all: puck protection, speed, passing, shot. The longevity or career aspect should really count for something too.

Umm...???? Hasek actually won the league MVP TWICE in the latter half of the nineties.

Hasek also played at a high level until retiring at 43. Jagr also played at a high level until 43 and retired at 45. The only difference was geopolitics, Eddie Belfour and innovative style which made Hasek have to wait his turn.

 

[JackSlater]

I think Hasek but I wouldn't fault someone for picking Jagr. Around their peaks people generally preferred Hasek, which is notable but doesn't necessarily make it true.

 

[hamzarocks]

My expected rankings 10 years from now

1. Gretzky
2. Mcdavid
3. Lemieux
4. Orr
5. Howe

6. Hasek
7. Crosby/Bobby Hull
8. Bobby Hull/Crosby

9 to 15 all interchangable and neck and neck are;

OV
Jagr
Bourque
Beliveau
Roy
Messier
Esposito

 

[wetcoast]

Sure, but Hasek was better than Lindros and Forsberg even when those guys were healthy and in their primes. That is a lot less clear cut when it involves Jagr.

I think the term better is in part because it was a really low scoring era for position players.

Hasek and Lemieux is an interesting comparable.

Sure I guess but like I stated above Hasek has some, for lack of a better phrase, red flags when comparing the 99.9 percentile of NHL players or even hockey players all time.

 

[Hippasus]

Hasek: Hart, Hart, Vezina, Vezina, Vezina, Vezina, Vezina, Vezina
* Most Harts of any goalie ever. In 100 years, only 4 other goalies have ever won a Hart
* 2nd most Vezina of any goalie AND he played in an era with Hall of Famer's Brodeur and Roy, so the competition was high

Jagr: Hart, Ross, Ross, Ross, Ross, Ross
* Only one Hart trophy (does not rank)
* Five Art Ross, 4th most

Hasek changed the entire conversation about (philosophically) how to play goalie... his particular moves were unorthodox, but what he was doing (seeing the net as the puck does, and then blocking that space) has been highly influential for any goalie who relies on anything other than "standard blocking style".

With much due respect to Jagr, I don't see this one as particularly close.



Umm...???? Hasek actually won the league MVP TWICE in the latter half of the nineties.

Hasek also played at a high level until retiring at 43. Jagr also played at a high level until 43 and retired at 45. The only difference was geopolitics, Eddie Belfour and innovative style which made Hasek have to wait his turn.

I was talking NHL only. Besides, how noteworthy could Hasek have been behind the Iron Curtain if he had a lot of trouble wresting the number one slot from Belfour in Chicago?

I see Hasek as an instinctual goaltender. Grant Fuhr was instinctual in his style too. Yes, Hasek was unorthodox in his style, but the results are what matters more in this sort of discussion. Did he change the game? I contend 'no'. Jagr changed the game a bit more by being both a skill player and having the attributes of a power forward more in the vein like we see today. Hasek rode the wave of the emerging Dead Puck Era. Jagr was like a beacon from a nigh-past golden age, yet showing a way for the future of offense despite stifling defense.

Also, Harts are hard to compare sometimes when they happen to be voted more in terms of 'team value'.

When playing, Lemieux was actually still the best in the late 90s, but he didn't play as much as Jagr did. Jagr absolutely has the 'career-value' advantage over Hasek.

 

[Regal]

I was talking NHL only. Besides, how noteworthy could Hasek have been behind the Iron Curtain if he had a lot of trouble wresting the number one slot from Belfour in Chicago?

I see Hasek as an instinctual goaltender. Grant Fuhr was instinctual in his style too. Yes, Hasek was unorthodox in his style, but the results are what matters more in this sort of discussion. Did he change the game? I contend 'no'. Jagr changed the game a bit more by being both a skill player and having the attributes of a power forward more in the vein like we see today. Hasek rode the wave of the emerging Dead Puck Era. Jagr was like a beacon from a nigh-past golden age, yet showing a way for the future of offense despite stifling defense.

Also, Harts are hard to compare sometimes when they happen to be voted more in terms of 'team value'.

When playing, Lemieux was actually still the best in the late 90s, but he didn't play as much as Jagr did. Jagr absolutely has the 'career-value' advantage over Hasek.

I think it’s really hard to know how to gauge Hasek before Buffalo. Belfour was one of the best goalies in the world and I think many in the league and Keenan in particular weren’t a fan of euros at the time, nor would his style endear himself to a lot of coaches. His numbers were also above average before his first Vezina year so he might have been able to do better with more starts/experience. At the same time I’ve heard that pad technology getting lighter also helped him a lot with his style so maybe he couldn’t have done the same earlier

 

[tarheelhockey]

Jagr had that best player in the league aura in the latter-half of the 90s that Hasek didn't

I had a different experience.

Hasek could've possibly had a better career if he'd started earlier.

Hasek was great in his early career as well. It was just not visible to North Americans.

 

[Staniowski]

I think Hasek was the best goalie in the world in the 2nd-half of the 1980s. He was a phenomenon when he was young, and very highly regarded by everybody familiar with him.

He was also probably the best goalie in the world when he was playing in the IHL. His style just threw people off. Some people thought he was great, but some of the people making the decisions thought he was a wacko, flopping around.

There was a semi-famous story of a Detroit sports writer who, in the early '90s, asked Petr Klima, who played with Hasek in Czechoslovakia, who the best goaltender in the world was, and Klima responded: "Dominik Hasek, easily" (or something like that). The sportswriter didn't even know what he was talking about, and he thought about it, and said, wait, you mean that goalie playing in the IHL? The best goalie in the world is playing in the minors? Klima said yeah, just wait, you will see.

People who weren't familiar with Hasek thought he came out of nowhere, but he was probably the biggest goaltending prospect of all-time.

 

[Staniowski]

I'd say Jagr was better than Hasek.

 

[Albatros]

how noteworthy could Hasek have been behind the Iron Curtain

Among other accolades 3x Czechoslovak player of the year. Second most in history, at 25. Hašek was easily the best goalie in Europe for all of the late 80s. Only a grade A moron could have thought good Canadian stand-up boy Jimmy Waite is the bigger prospect.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

I'll go with the best goaltender in hockey history

 

[LandfiII]

This is a disservice to Jagr. And I know what Hasek was.

 

[bobholly39]

Sure, but Hasek was better than Lindros and Forsberg even when those guys were healthy and in their primes. That is a lot less clear cut when it involves Jagr.

Hasek and Lemieux is an interesting comparable.

That still doesn't make sense.

Jagr/Hasek were head to head at same time at their peak. Who was better? It is not clear cut, it's a 1A/1B pick your poison type of comparison.

So if you bring in any of Lemieux, Lindros or Forsberg into the fold - it affects both players in the exact same say.

For what it's worth:

Lemieux - he's better than both
Forsberg - he's not as good as either
Lindros - also not as good, but a bit closer if healthy

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Hasek was great in his early career as well. It was just not visible to North Americans.

Okay, does that mean we have to have a legitimate conversation about Tony Hand?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Okay, does that mean we have to have a legitimate conversation about Tony Hand?

Was he winning gold medals for his country as well.?

 

[KCC]

Hasek. He did way more with less. He was the definition of carrying a team. If he was on one of those super teams of the 90s he probably gets quite a few cups.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Was he winning gold medals for his country as well.?

So if someone has the most WHC medals, they're the best player?

 

[Albatros]

So if someone has the most WHC medals, they're the best player?

Hašek at the World Championships:

1987 Best Goaltender & First All-Star
1988 not held (Olympics)
1989 Best Goaltender & First All-Star
1990 First All-Star

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Hašek at the World Championships:

1987 Best Goaltender & First All-Star
1988 not held (Olympics)
1989 Best Goaltender & First All-Star
1990 First All-Star

 

[Golden_Jet]

So if someone has the most WHC medals, they're the best player?

I was referring to Olympic gold, but ya those count as well.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I was referring to Olympic gold, but ya those count as well.

Yeah

That's why I made my post

 

[tarheelhockey]

Okay, does that mean we have to have a legitimate conversation about Tony Hand?

Yes