Look, you can't just dismiss any source that disagrees with your notion. Wheeler's list on The Athletic was AWFUL but I'm not going to dismiss that opinion entirely if you want to use it as argument, considering that Brännström was ranked 28th on that list. Of course you then also have to consider that Sanderson was ranked 49th, as the Sens 5th best prospect..
Pronman's mid-season rankings last season had Veleno at #39, just behind Brown (35) and ahead of Pinto (54). Brännström wasn't eligible and Norris was way ahead.
With the point being; rankings vary wildly all over the place. Even from so-called "professionals" who get paid to rank these kids.
It's not that I entirely dismiss it but I find this particular ranking not very good, but like you say it's opinions in the end. I could say it's good because there is 7 Sens prospects in a top-100 list but no, it's just ONE opinion that has some players ranked in weird spots.
Or that other opinion having Sanderson 49th/5th for the Sens, hard for me to take it very seriously. 3 games into his NCAA career, Jake looks absolutely fantastic. We voted him #2 on the Sens board. I mean, we're just random fans but there is a lot of knowledgable posters on the Sens board (probably like on every board) and it gives you some kind of concensus so I'd prefer to rely on it rather than this or that random list from just one person.
Also, pretty normal that Veleno was ranked higher in the past because of his initital pedigree that started in the Q in 2015 (may I remind you I live here, I have followed his career all the way, saw him play in the Q many times)
Joseph Veleno didn't deserve exceptional status
I agree in general, hard to find a concensus for a prospects ranking. I wish there was a source doing something like that :
We looked at 12 sources to come up with EOTP’s Consensus NHL Draft Rankings
They "combine 12 of the most respected draft rankings and used the average" to make their own ranking. Only for pre-draft though
You often get the answer you are looking for if you ask a question the right way. Should I ask if Raymond/Zadina/Veleno are close to Norris/Brännström?
Brown is clearly the weakest prospect of that Sens trio and the one most easily compared to Veleno/Ras. If one is in a tier with Norris/EB, all 3 are..
ok but I was not the one building that "trio", you first suggested that Veleno/Rasmussen were in the same tier as Norris/Brannstrom /Brown...
Reality of how Sens probably see it (based on the way the polls went, new information/performances since, comments, etc)
Stuetzle
Sanderson
Batherson/Norris/Brannstrom
Formenton/Pinto/JBD/Brown
Jarventie/Greig/Kleven
Balcers/Abramov/Daccord
Etc.
Brown/Jarventie/Greig/Kleven then yeah, I could see Veleno/Rasmussen close to that tier, but Batherson/Norris/Brannstrom? Not really close.
I think that's a solid target for Veleno but I see him having more upside. Tierney was a ~20 point player his first few seasons, I think Veleno has potential to do a little better a little faster. After that? Who knows? He needs to keep developing but he has all the tools to become a 2nd line center, ~50-60 points. I watch him most games in SHL and see nothing that is cause for grave concern.
IMO you need some high end skill to score 60 pts in the NHL (unless it's contextual like playing with Crosby for example). As a Center, Veleno will most likely have to be the play driver. I don't see his offensive ability suggesting he can do that at the NHL level. That's why I think he'll be better as the 3rd line Center.
But ok good, we'll see eventually. you just needed to answer that so we can probably end that part of the conversation
His d+1 was fantastic too and he has been ranked high on many prospect lists, even as recently as during his admittedly disappointing first AHL season.
However for a guy adjusting to pro hockey he hasn't been as bad as you imply. His first 10-12 games were ROUGH, then he played at around 0.5PPG which is solid and was a key player for Canada at WJC.
He's also been pretty good overall in SHL but you are ignoring the context that he's on the worst team in that league (which you gladly compare with numbers for players on the best and highest scoring AHL team).
His D+1 was fantastic? ok but you know he turned 19 y/o in January that season? There's plenty of players who did that or close at that age (like Abramov while being younger)
Or Francis Perron? 108 pts in 62 games as a 19 y/o (was 9 little months older than Veleno), plus 33 pts in 18 playoffs game. Plenty more examples.
And I don't think you understand what I have been saying! Where did I say Veleno was bad or where am I ignoring anything? I just don't see ANYTHING that suggests he will be better than Chris Tierney (for example) or that he is in the SAME TIER as a prospect NOW (not last year) as Norris/Brannstom/Brown. There's actually a bigger gap between these and Veleno with Balcers and Abramov who despite being older and later round picks, are more proven in the pros.
Like I said, exceptional status, name recognition, draft position, etc it doesn't last forever. As I said above, pretty normal that he was initially higher on prospects list.
Note : When you say "
highest scoring AHL team", you understand that it's totally the doing of a few pure rookies and sophomores (aka 20-21 y/o)? Like bert and I have demonstrated?
Top prospect is always hugely influential. Lafreniere/Byfield/Stutzle weigh heavier than Raymond.
When the poll was made, we also hadn't seen Berggren break out like he has, Seider dominating SHL and Albert Johansson outperforming much higher rated D like Björnfot and Broberg. I'm not saying those things should catapult Wings ahead of other teams, but I would disagree with their being a massive difference if you look beyond the #1 prospect.
Pronman had Sens system at 12 and Wings at 13 about a year ago. Wheeler had Sens at 7 and Wings at 9 in the spring. Even accounting for the Sens adding more at the draft than Wings, comparing the two pools is not crazy.
I didn't say it was "crazy", but as the results in the current poll clearly show, the Red Wings pool is in a tier under the Kings/Sens/Rangers pools. However I agree with the point about the top prospects. I think Rangers have received a lot of votes because of Lafreniere/Shesterkin (who also turns 25 in 2 weeks so probaby shouldn't even be considered as a prospect)
IMO it should be LA vs Ottawa, then NYR vs Detroit.
So a lot of things are cleared up. Some people might find it crazy, I personally find the discussion quite interesting, that we agree or not, thank you for your participation
