Best Player In the World

[bobholly39]

The key word is performances.

What is produced relative to others (top-10 goals, assists) is different than the opinions of voters (Hart, Lindsay).

We live in the age of huge hype for Crosby from before he played a single game and through his rookie season (he did not win the Calder but excuses galore were shouted from the rooftops).


Gretzky
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 5th, 5th, 6th, 9th

Orr
Goals: 6th, 8th, 8th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd

(Note: Orr revolutionized the position, and has one of the greatest peaks, but not one of the best careers.

I am on record many places as saying the gap between Esposito and Orr is too big. Just look at Espo's numbers - hard to discount away most of it due to Orr; Esposito's...
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 6th)

Hull (not including WHA production)
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th
Assists: 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 6th

Howe
Goals: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 7th, 7th, 8th
Assists: 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 9th

Etc.

Crosby's production in terms of seasons pales by comparison. His whole career:
Goals: 1st, 1st, 7th, 7th
Assists: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 7th, 7th, 9th

(Queue excuses!)

I'm surprised you seem so down on Crosby after you voted him top 10 all time in the top 100 project.

The one thing to keep in mind with Crosby (Jagr is like this too) is that he has a very well-rounded offensive game. He's not necessarily first in goals or assists - but he's high enough in both that it's points where he shines. Similar to someone like Jagr, or even a Lafleur or Beliveau.

Gretzky is a silly comparison because he's Gretzky. Hull is a goal-scorer first so his goal totals are super high (Ovi would be like that too). Howe had tremendous longevity - but also it's easier to finish near the top in a league with less teams and high end players than it is today (finishing 3rd in goals or assists one year might be the same as finishing 7th or 8th in the 2010s in some years, based on number of stars).

 

[VanIslander]

Best player in a given time period is different than top or greatest all time.

In the former you ZOOM IN to analyze whereas in the latter you PAN OUT and look at legacy and all significant things, like media and peer accolades/voting.

The best of a time period and the greatest all time can be somewhat different.

 

[daver]

Best player in a given time period is different than top or greatest all time.

In the former you ZOOM IN to analyze whereas in the latter you PAN OUT and look at legacy and all significant things, like media and peer accolades/voting.

The best of a time period and the greatest all time can be somewhat different.

That's not what the OP is about. It is about who is the best player at a particular time. It is certainly open to subjective interpretation about what that means but I am sure it doesn't mean listing goal and assist totals and not point totals.

 

[McFlash97]

Being the best player in the world is not always shown through award voting or statistics. For example: Sidney Crosby hasn't won a single individual award the past two seasons, but he's been considered the best player in the world over that time.


I would like to try to reconstruct a timeline of the players that were considered "The Best In The World" for as far back as we can go. There will be transition years where there might be 2 players to list and there might even be a period where there is no consensus best. Also, to keep it simpler, please exclude goalies.

Here is a VERY RAW attempt at starting things off...

2017: McDavid
2016: Kane
2015: Crosby
2014: Crosby
2013: Crosby
2012: Crosby
2011: Ovechkin
2010: Ovechkin
2009: Malkin
2008: Ovechkin

2007: Lidstrom/Crosby
2006: Nicklas Lidstrom
2004: Peter Forsberg
2003: Peter Forsberg
2002: Jagr/Lemieux/Lidstrom/Forsberg???
2001: Jaromir Jagr
2000: Jaromir Jagr
1999: Jaromir Jagr
1998: Jaromir Jagr
1997: Lemieux/Jagr
1996: Mario Lemieux
1995: Mario Lemieux
1994: Mario Lemieux
1993: Mario Lemieux
1992: Mario Lemieux
1991: Mario Lemieux
1990: Lemieux/Gretzky
1989: Lemieux/Gretzky
1988: Wayne Gretzky
1987: Wayne Gretzky
1986: Wayne Gretzky
1985: Wayne Gretzky
1984: Wayne Gretzky
1983: Wayne Gretzky
1982: Wayne Gretzky
1981: Wayne Gretzky
1980: Trottier/Gretzky?
1979: Guy Lafleur
1978: Guy Lafleur
1977: Guy Lafleur
1976: Orr/Lafleur
1975: Bobby Orr
1974: Bobby Orr
1973: Bobby Orr
1972: Bobby Orr
1971: Bobby Orr
1970: Bobby Orr
1969: Hull/Orr
1968: Bobby Hull
1967: Bobby Hull
1966: Bobby Hull
1965: Bobby Hull
1964: Bobby Hull
1963: Howe/Hull
1962: Howe/Hull
1961: Gordie Howe
1960: Gordie Howe
1959: Gordie Howe
1958: Gordie Howe
1957: Gordie Howe
1956: Gordie Howe
1955: Gordie Howe
1954: Gordie Howe
1953: Gordie Howe
1952: Gordie Howe
1951: Richard/Howe
1950: Maurice Richard
1949: Maurice Richard
1948: Maurice Richard
1947: Maurice Richard


I figured the end of WWII was a good place to stop. I pretty much did this off the top of my head, so I'm sure there will be a lot of things that need to be changed, especially for the earlier years. Looking forward to everyone's contributions...

2017: McDavid
2016: Kane
2015: Crosby
2014: Crosby
2013: Crosby
2012: Crosby
2011: Ovechkin
2010: Ovechkin
2009: Malkin
2008: Ovechkin

McDavid was easily the best player in the world in 2017. OV takes 3 seasons. Sid took 4. Kane easily wins 1

 

[VanIslander]

It is about who is the best player at a particular time. It is certainly open to subjective interpretation about what that means but I am sure it doesn't mean listing goal and assist totals and not point totals.

My point was about double dipping.

One analysis can include goals and assists, and ANOTHER separate analysis can compare points, but to mash them together is MISLEADING.

Take player F for example. He is a...

• 1st team all star
• Hart trophy winner
• Lindsay trophy winner
• Selke trophy winner
• 3rd in NHL goals
• 2nd in NHL points

Looks like HHOF material, right? Well, all those accomplishments are actually about ONE YEAR of performance!!!!!! A hell of a year, but overlapping recognition of ONE performed season.

 

[daver]

My point was about double dipping.

One analysis can include goals and assists, and ANOTHER separate analysis can compare points, but to mash them together is MISLEADING.

Take player F for example. He is a...

• 1st team all star
• Hart trophy winner
• Lindsay trophy winner
• Selke trophy winner
• 3rd in NHL goals
• 2nd in NHL points

Looks like HHOF material, right? Well, all those accomplishments are actually about ONE YEAR of performance!!!!!! A hell of a year, but overlapping recognition of ONE performed season.

Since you did not seem to be responding to anyone particularly nor was anyone really promoting Crosby by "double dipping" your point did not seem to make sense. You can make this point about any player in this discussion but it is still not really relevant to the OP.

I think your primary point was to question Crosby's place at the top from 2011 to 2017, or the relative strength of his case vs. other #1 players from other seasons/era.

You completely ignored any "big picture" considerations, namely that he had a case to be in the running for #1 in any of the four years previous to that nor any consideration for him missing time in two seasons where he was separating himself from the pack.

 

[Midnight Judges]

2006: Jagr
2007: Crosby
2008: Ovechkin
2009: Ovechkin
2010: Ovechkin
2011: Ovechkin
2012: Malkin
2013: Ovechkin
2014: Crosby
2015: Ovechkin
2016: Kane
2017: McDavid
2018: McDavid
2019: Kucherov

The main difference between my list and some of the lists in this thread is that I don't give full credit for half and quarter seasons. I also rely more heavily on the player who actually had the best season.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

2006: Jagr
2007: Crosby
2008: Ovechkin
2009: Ovechkin
2010: Ovechkin
2011: Ovechkin
2012: Malkin
2013: Ovechkin
2014: Crosby
2015: Ovechkin
2016: Kane
2017: McDavid
2018: McDavid
2019: Kucherov

The main difference between my list and some of the lists in this thread is that I don't give full credit for half and quarter seasons. I also rely more heavily on the player who actually had the best season.

Lmfao horrible list

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

By definition, the Hart is of course not necessarily awarded to the best player in the league. Since maybe three years back at least, it seems that a majority would have Connor McDavid as “the best player in the world”, however, I think Draisaitl is favored in the Hart race this year, while Kucherov and Hall were named MVP in the previous seasons. Draisaitl outscored McDavid on the same team, and proved that he’s a great player in his own right, not losing his step with his more acclaimed teammate injured. Kucherov’s production last season had been unheard of for decades and was hard to ignore. And Hall carried a lackluster Devils team into the playoffs on the back of a career year, while many were pointing out that McDavid really was the best player that season, however he was disqualified for being on a team that missed the playoffs.

For another example, Chris Pronger’s Hart season stands out. Pronger himself has acknowledged that he got lucky with Jagr missing almost 20 games that year. Also, I heard mentioned a player’s poll in 2006 where Peter Forsberg was named the best player in the world by his peers, with some margin, however he just couldn’t stay healthy, and was basically playing on one foot.

What I started wondering, reading through the Hart winners over the years, was who was in actuality the player that most, or a plurality would agree was the best in the world at any point in time. Who held the best player title and for how long? What ended the tenure and who claimed the title?

What I’m really curious about, is a more detailed look at the debate than “60s Hull, 70s Orr, 80s Gretzky, 90s Lemieux”, and so on. I’m interested in how you look at history, and remember players by the years and by the consensus, when it was that you found that someone else sneaked into the conversation, and so on.

Really, I think the entire subject is enticing. Was a goalie, Hasek perhaps, the overall best player in the game? Is there a case for players outside the NHL? Has there been a McDavid kind of player who most would agree was the best for a prolonged period of time, but who (unlike McDavid) never won the Hart?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Prior discussion here: Best Player In the World

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Prior discussion here: Best Player In the World

I’ll fetch my coat.

 

[Theokritos]

Prior discussion here: Best Player In the World

Merged, thanks.

 

[The Panther]

I’ll give this a go.

My own rule here will be no more than 2 players at any one season / period. Beyond two, I’ll inevitably start listing six players at once or something, which kind of defeats the point even if it’s technically more accurate in some eras.

Also, don’t take my opinions before the mid-to-late-1980s seriously, as I didn’t see anything prior to that and thus I’m talking out of my ass:

1944-45
Elmer Lach / Maurice Richard
1945-46
Max Bentley
1946-47
Maurice Richard
1947-48
Elmer Lach / Ted Lindsay
1948-49
Sid Abel / Roy Conacher
1949-50
Maurice Richard / Ted Lindsay
1950-51 to 1953-54
Gordie Howe
1954-55
Gordie Howe / Maurice Richard
1955-56
Jean Beliveau
1956-57
Gordie Howe
1957-58
Gordie Howe / Jacques Plante
1958-59
Jean Beliveau / Jacques Plante
1959-60
Jean Beliveau / Bobby Hull
1960-61
Jean Beliveau / Bernie Geoffrion
1961-62
Bobby Hull / Jacques Plante
1962-63
Gordie Howe
1963-64 to 1966-67
Bobby Hull / Stan Mikita
1967-68
Stan Mikita / Bobby Orr
1968-69
Phil Esposito / Bobby Orr
1969-70 to 1974-75
Bobby Orr
1975-76 to 1977-78
Guy Lafleur
1978-79
Guy Lafleur / Bryan Trottier
1979-80
Marcel Dionne / Wayne Gretzky
1980-81 to 1987-88
Wayne Gretzky
1988-89 to 1990-91
Wayne Gretzky / Mario Lemieux
1991-92 to 1992-93
Mario Lemieux
1993-94
Dominik Hasek / Mario Lemieux
1995
Eric Lindros / Jaromir Jagr (waiving Mario here, obviously)
1995-96 to 1996-97
Mario Lemieux
1997-98 to 1998-99
Dominik Hasek / Jaromir Jagr
1999-00
Jaromir Jagr
2000-01
Mario Lemieux
2001-02
??? (I cannot think that Iginla was considered the best in the world. Man, this period sucks.)
2002-03 to 2003-04
Peter Forsberg
2005-06
Jaromir Jagr / Nicklas Lidstrom
2006-07
Sidney Crosby
2007-08 to 2009-10
Alex Ovechkin
2010-11
Sidney Crosby
2011-12
Evgeni Malkin
2012-13 to 2013-14
Sidney Crosby
2014-15
Sidney Crosby / Alex Ovechkin
2015-16
Sidney Crosby / Patrick Kane
2016-17 to 2019-20
Connor McDavid


Gretzky is listed in 12 seasons.
Lemieux is listed in 9 seasons.
Howe is listed in 8 seasons.
Orr is listed in 8 seasons.
Bobby Hull and Sidney Crosby are listed in 6 seasons.
Mikita is listed in 5 seasons.
Richard, Beliveau, Lafleur, Jagr, Ovechkin, McDavid (so far) in 4 seasons.

Roughly speaking, seems about right.

 

[steve141]

I’ll give this a go.
[..]
1978-79
Guy Lafleur / Bryan Trottier
1979-80
Marcel Dionne / Wayne Gretzky.

Good list overall. Did you consider Denis Potvin for the 1978-80 time period?

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Prior discussion here: Best Player In the World

Kind of amusing to browse the pages of this thread and seeing the numerous other — besides the one I penned — threads that have been merged over the years. I should have tried a search first.

One of the reasons why I was curious on this topic, was whether or not goalies have widely been viewed as the best player overall at times. The OP asked to keep it simple and not include goalies, but I remember Hasek for a while being regarded as something otherworldly, and I think that this should be noted. My local club Luleå had Jarmo Myllys in net during the mid-to-late nineties, he was a superstar for us and seemed like he had a case for being the best player — not just goalie — in the SHL, and it feels like this era of the game in general was one where goalies dominated the game and their status soared. How widespread was the view of Hasek as the best player in the game?

 

[psycat]

How on earth you dont see Sid as the best player in 12-13? I mean..how? 1.56ppg, the second best had 1.25ppg. 3rd in scoring despite missing 25% of the regular season.

Also in 10-11 he was THE best player in NHL. 1.61ppg, the second best had 1.27ppg. But as he missed 50% of the season we cannot really be 100% sure he would have won it all that season, but he was very clearly ahead of anyone during those 41 games so it kinda feels wrong to say that D Sedin or Corey Perry were the best players in that season, simply because they were not. We really dont need Sid to play those missing 41 games to prove a point. He was the best, simple as that.

That's your opinion in the real world we have seen players, like Rantanen for example, who goes on an absolute tear for half a season but drops off. Heck Ovechkin had such starts to a year, still finished within his normal range. To some of us a player actually has to do something order to get credit for it. Hence why a player like Crosby is ranked above someone like Forsberg(who by your logic would have had like 9 100pts+ seasons).

 

[daver]

That's your opinion in the real world we have seen players, like Rantanen for example, who goes on an absolute tear for half a season but drops off. Heck Ovechkin had such starts to a year, still finished within his normal range. To some of us a player actually has to do something order to get credit for it. Hence why a player like Crosby is ranked above someone like Forsberg(who by your logic would have had like 9 100pts+ seasons).

The list is not intended to be simply listing the award winner (s) year after year but a fluid list that considers performances other than the ones associated with the respective year and playoff performances.

The logic is that Crosby was arguably best/co-best player in the world starting from 2006/07 and continuing to 09/10 as mentioned in the OP; a claim that hasn't been disputed very much in the thread.

His level of play in 10/11 was arguably the best we have seen since Wayne/Mario. I have him co-best that year with OV; who like Crosby, wasn't close to winning any awards but had earned some benefit of the doubt. 11/12 saw Malkin reemerge and OV drop out while Crosby still was worthy of being co-best. 2012/13 was Crosby alone as Malkin again saw a significant drop in his level of play.

It was Crosby alone or arguably sharing with OV in the 14/15 season until 2016/17 when McDavid joined him. I would give Crosby one more season in 17/18 at the top with McDavid but given he had another Hart nomination in 18/19, his relative age, and a track record of an elite prime that only Wayne and Howe can better, some may still have him up there.