Best player in the world: 2012

[GoldenKnight]

Malkin, clearly.

 

[filinski77]

Voted Malkin here.

Player	Games	Goals	Points	82GP Goals	82GP Points
Malkin	75​	50​	109​	55	119
Crosby	22​	8​	37​	30	138

Even if you give Crosby the ludicrous benefit of a doubt and projecting 25% of a season out to 100%, 55 goals and 119 points is pretty on par with 30 goals and 138 points in my opinion.

Then the kicker is that 75 games of world class production >> 22 games. Easy choice.

 

[Caser]

There needs to be some sense of reason in these projections though. Missing several seasons in a row is not the same as playing 1/4 of a season and playing in the years before and after. Most people still had Lemieux as the best player “when healthy” in a season like 90-91 when he only played 26 games. Lemieux was also not clearly better than Jagr or Hasek in 96-97, so it’s not as easy to project him being better in the subsequent years without any games played. I do think Malkin was good enough this year that I don’t think a reasonable projection of Crosby is necessarily better, and Id argue he was generally better in the games they both played in as well, but picking Crosby is a lot more justifiable than Lemieux in 98 and 99.

Yeah, I'm just saying that this logic could lead to quite absurd assumptions. I think there are no virtual best players, it is about what a player does at some time frame. And also what makes it even more absurd is that Malkin was amazing that year and to safely assume that Crosby would be better if healthy... I'm not even sure that Crosby was ever better than Malkin's version v2012.

 

[Regal]

When Crosby was in the lineup:

Crosby: 22 - 8 - 29 - 37
Malkin: 22 - 16 - 19 - 35

Crosby also had an unusually high number of secondaries in this period (13 of his 29 assists). I think even when they played, Malkin was the better player this year. Crosby still scored a ton because he’s extremely talented, but he was still more on the perimeter and cautious than in the past and was playing probably the worst he ever has defensively.

It’s one of those things where generally I think injuries can be overrated if a guy misses a few weeks and comes back, no worse for wear, but Crosby was such a question mark this season and came back but then was held out again, then they kept pushing the timeline back. If the competition was shit, that’d be one thing, but Malkin had his best year and one of the best seasons post-lockout

 

[bobholly39]

Just by that logic Mario Lemieux was the best player in 1998, 1999 and 2000 - he just didn't play much, but we could certainly assume he would be the better player in those years.

Yeah exactly. And certainly Mario Lemieux was the best player in 1994 and 1995 too, though he barely played. Does it matter? I dunno, depends on what OP is asking.

If we want to talk about who had the best year? It's Malkin
If we want to talk about who was the best player, but with a minimum amount of games played? It's Malkin
If we want to talk about who was probably the best player in an absolute sense regardless of games played - I think it's probably Crosby over Malkin, but close.

Any arguments is going to have less to do with hockey than it is about interpreting OP's question. Which is stupid. We had 10+ pages of that last thread.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

But who was so close that playoff performance would put them over?

I understand the logic of someone suggesting Crosby was the best player.....same thing discussed several times before....the best player is the best player, regardless of whether they play enough games or not....but it's tough to go to Crosby here......certainly looked like the best player in the world again when he came back, but simply not enough demonstration of it and since Malkin had such a great year.....he seems to be the easy choice.

The only problem I have with these polls though is......aren't we just re-doing to the end of year awards? I know Hart doesn't always go to best player, but mostly does and Pearson/Lindsay is supposed to be best player, or maybe not depending on how you define it. Those awards would already factor in games played, so are we just re-doing them?

Malkin and especially Crosby were nowhere close to OV in the 08-10 regular seasons but their fans said the playoffs should push them ahead. So by that same logic Thomas should have won 2011 with his Vezina + Smythe. 2012 Kovy. Regular season top 5 pts, 1st AST. Clearly behind Malkin, but closer than Crosby was to OV in 08 and 09 regular seasons. Best skater in the 2012 playoffs, carried NJ to the SCF with a broken back. Am I saying he should win? No, like I said I voted Malkin. I just find it hilarious that certain people aren't even bringing it up anymore, but it was so important when Crosby was getting destroyed in the regular season and OV was dominating.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Malkin and especially Crosby were nowhere close to OV in the 08-10 regular seasons but their fans said the playoffs should push them ahead. So by that same logic Thomas should have won 2011 with his Vezina + Smythe. 2012 Kovy. Regular season top 5 pts, 1st AST. Clearly behind Malkin, but closer than Crosby was to OV in 08 and 09 regular seasons. Best skater in the 2012 playoffs, carried NJ to the SCF with a broken back. Am I saying he should win? No, like I said I voted Malkin. I just find it hilarious that certain people aren't even bringing it up anymore, but it was so important when Crosby was getting destroyed in the regular season and OV was dominating.

This is absolutely ridiculous lol. No Kovalchuk was not closer to Malkin than Crosby was to Ovechkin in 09.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Coming in a bit late with some of the earlier polls, how tf did Crosby finish 3rd in 2006?

Easy: The homerism for Crosby on this forum is simply a huge cut above the homerism for any other player.

You could make a poll about who the best Shoots and Ladders player in the NHL is and there would be a huge contingent feeling utterly confident that it must be Crosby.

 

[bobholly39]

Weird how playoffs were such a big deal in 08-10 to justify Crosby/Malkin votes because people couldn't handle OV finishing 1st, but 2011 and 2012 there's been no mention of playoffs. I voted Malkin because I'm not a hypocrite, but man it's hilarious to see certain people moving the goal posts for certain players. Different year different criteria.

The best players in the world, in some order, around 2012 were the likes of Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos....none of them had good playoffs. Why would playoffs matter?

The best players in the world in ~2008 and 2009 were the likes of Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin...maybe even Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Some of these guys had monster playoffs in those years.

If you're really close to top - and have way better playoffs - why wouldn't it be a differentiator?

As I mentioned last thread (which you ignored) this isn't just happening in 08-10. It came up in 2001 with Sakic, or in some of the Forsberg years with his playoff runs.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Voting Karlsson here as his numbers on that club were insane for a while.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Coming in a bit late with some of the earlier polls, how tf did Crosby finish 3rd in 2006? Thornton/Jagr/Ovi were all very much a clear step above. And I'm not really convinced that Crosby was better than Kovalchuk either (massive increase in goalscoring dominance).

Anyways. Good stuff compiling this!

Yeah I'm not sure how anyone could have Crosby ahead of OV in 05/06. OV beat him in goals, GPG, pts, PPG, hart voting, lindsay voting (OV was a finalist) and tore him a new hole in Calder voting (124-4 first place votes). No playoffs or NHL track record for either one so those excuses don't work. Pretty ridiculous, but as usual there was probably a different criteria for voting Crosby that season.

 

[Regal]

Easy: The homerism for Crosby on this forum is simply a huge cut above the homerism for any other player.

You could make a poll about who the best Shoots and Ladders player in the NHL is and there would be a huge contingent feeling utterly confident that it must be Crosby.

Pot over here calling out the kettles

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

This is absolutely ridiculous lol. No Kovalchuk was not closer to Malkin than Crosby was to Ovechkin in 09.

How about 08?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Easy: The homerism for Crosby on this forum is simply a huge cut above the homerism for any other player.

You could make a poll about who the best Shoots and Ladders player in the NHL is and there would be a huge contingent feeling utterly confident that it must be Crosby.

Crosby was a great player. Malkin had a better year but Sid was absent. At no time do I think anyone considered Malkin to be the consensus best player in the world.

I don’t have an issue with him winning this as Crosby didn’t play and OV dropped off. Personally I’d take Larlsson as his numbers were pretty crazy comparatively to other blueliners but Geni had an outstanding year.

Totally get people who are saying Crosby. I think they’re right that he was considered the best in the world back in 2012 but him not playing unfortunately disqualifies him from the conversation in my opinion.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The best players in the world, in some order, around 2012 were the likes of Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos....none of them had good playoffs. Why would playoffs matter?

The best players in the world in ~2008 and 2009 were the likes of Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin...maybe even Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Some of these guys had monster playoffs in those years.

If you're really close to top - and have way better playoffs - why wouldn't it be a differentiator?

As I mentioned last thread (which you ignored) this isn't just happening in 08-10. It came up in 2001 with Sakic, or in some of the Forsberg years with his playoff runs.

The problem is Crosby was nowhere close to OV in the 08 or 09 regular seasons. Hart voting, lindsay voting, pts, PPG, goals, GPG OV tore him apart in everything.

 

[Caser]

Yeah exactly. And certainly Mario Lemieux was the best player in 1994 and 1995 too, though he barely played. Does it matter? I dunno, depends on what OP is asking.

If we want to talk about who had the best year? It's Malkin
If we want to talk about who was the best player, but with a minimum amount of games played? It's Malkin
If we want to talk about who was probably the best player in an absolute sense regardless of games played - I think it's probably Crosby over Malkin, but close.

Any arguments is going to have less to do with hockey than it is about interpreting OP's question. Which is stupid. We had 10+ pages of that last thread.

I guess then actually playing hockey is not a prerequisite to be considered the best hockey player in "an absolute sense".

 

[TheGuiminator]

Assuming everyone is healthy by the start of the 2011-12 season, every GM is picking Crosby first, because he was the best player in the world

Malkin had the better season though, and one of the best of the modern era, so I understand why he’s winning the poll

 

[Midnight Judges]

Pot over here calling out the kettles

Say it if it makes you feel better, but there is no equivalence here.

I voted for Ovechkin for 08, 09, 10, and 11 in this poll series. Malkin in 12, Crosby in 07, and Jagr in 06.

If I was anywhere near the homer the Crosby voters are, I would have voted for Ovechkin every time - like they did. I would have applied the "surrounding seasons" argument to 2007 and the "grace period" for 2011 and 2012. And perhaps the rookie argument for 2006.

 

[Offtheboard412]

How about 08?

Nope, not even close. Crosby was coming off winning the Hart and Art Ross, tied for the league lead in scoring before injury, had an almost identical PPG to Ovechkin that year, then lead the playoffs in scoring making it to the finals. If you want to point to his injury as proof Kovalchuk's season was better go ahead, because this poll is about who was the best player, not who had the best full season. Kovalchuk's 2012 playoffs is the single most overrated playoff run ever. He was getting healthy scratched in the Philly series, and no he did not have a broken back. Try to find any actual real proof of Kovalchuk having any type of surgery after those playoffs. He didn't, and his actual injury was never confirmed.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Assuming everyone is healthy by the start of the 2011-12 season, every GM is picking Crosby, because he was the best player in the world

If anything, that would be relevant to the 2011 poll question.

The 2012 poll question is for after the 2012 season.

 

[Toby91ca]

Malkin and especially Crosby were nowhere close to OV in the 08-10 regular seasons but their fans said the playoffs should push them ahead. So by that same logic Thomas should have won 2011 with his Vezina + Smythe. 2012 Kovy. Regular season top 5 pts, 1st AST. Clearly behind Malkin, but closer than Crosby was to OV in 08 and 09 regular seasons. Best skater in the 2012 playoffs, carried NJ to the SCF with a broken back. Am I saying he should win? No, like I said I voted Malkin. I just find it hilarious that certain people aren't even bringing it up anymore, but it was so important when Crosby was getting destroyed in the regular season and OV was dominating.

I get it, I won't defend or suggest I'm making the argument that Crosby or Malkin should have been picked over OV in those years due to playoffs. However, playoffs do matter, just not enough to tip scales to the point a lot of people think. My point was that there was no one close to Malkin this year that there is even an argument. If you look at the 08-10 years and combine reg season + playoffs, OV was at 121pts in 89 gms, 149pts in 93 gms and 119pts in 79gms, Malkin was 128pts in 102gms, 149pts in 106gms and 88pts in 80gms and Crosby was 99pts in 73gms, 134pts in 101gms and 128pts in 94gms. Do I think we should look at that and suggest Crosby or Malkin were better than Ovechkin any of those years? No....but it's certainly a lot closer than any comparison to Malkin for 2011-12.

You mention Kovy....he was 102pts in 100gms vs. Malkin at 117pts in 81gms. The production just even in the same ballpark.

 

[bobholly39]

The problem is Crosby was nowhere close to OV in the 08 or 09 regular seasons. Hart voting, lindsay voting, pts, PPG, goals, GPG OV tore him apart in everything.

Crosby entered 2008 was the best player.
Up until his injury around January, he was tied for league lead in points.
He then had way better playoffs than Ovechkin (and than just about anyone, minus maybe Zetterberg).

How is he not close? I voted Ovechkin for 2008 - but to me Crosby is a clear #2. And if you're a clear #2, why wouldn't better playoffs close the gap in some way?

In 2009 - same logic but with Malkin instead of Crosby, who is close to Ovechkin (Crosby distant 3rd).

Who is the equivalent to this in 2012? Or last poll in 2011 when you brought it up? I don't see anyone.

 

[bobholly39]

Yeah, I'm just saying that this logic could lead to quite absurd assumptions. I think there are no virtual best players, it is about what a player does at some time frame. And also what makes it even more absurd is that Malkin was amazing that year and to safely assume that Crosby would be better if healthy... I'm not even sure that Crosby was ever better than Malkin's version v2012.

To the bolded - I disagree, but if you believe that than you should vote Malkin. And - Malkin was great enough in 2012 that I acknowledge that this may be a possibility.

To me - this is a much more interresting conversation to have than the useless "do injuries count or not" these threads are turning into.

I guess then actually playing hockey is not a prerequisite to be considered the best hockey player in "an absolute sense".

Just depends on the question....be explicit in what you're asking.

Whose the best player in the world today? McDavid.
Last year? McDavid.
2 years ago? McDavid.
Next year, assuming he doesn't decline unexpectedly/no one else surges past him? McDavid.

Now if McDavid only plays 22 games this year due to injury - is he no longer the best player in the world? No, of course he still is.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Nope, not even close. Crosby was coming off winning the Hart and Art Ross, tied for the league lead in scoring before injury, had an almost identical PPG to Ovechkin that year, then lead the playoffs in scoring making it to the finals. If you want to point to his injury as proof Kovalchuk's season was better go ahead, because this poll is about who was the best player, not who had the best full season. Kovalchuk's 2012 playoffs is the single most overrated playoff run ever. He was getting healthy scratched in the Philly series, and no he did not have a broken back. Try to find any actual real proof of Kovalchuk having any type of surgery after those playoffs. He didn't, and his actual injury was never confirmed.

Full season >> half season.

Kovy missed 1 game and it's pretty well known it was due to injury. Ask devils fans.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I think that a first place finish should be worth comparatively more than a 2nd place finish than that.

Some of these races were super tight though.

Like 09 regular season give me Ovie easily. Playoffs though I thought would have given Crosby / Malkin an edge but didn't.

Votes were super tight right? Unsure if 1 should be worth so much more.