Best player in the world: 2009

[TheStatican]

You’re basing “skill level” on 10 empty net goals….let that sink in. It’s not only ridiculous, but probably your worst take. Like I said, how dare they put out the best goal scorer of this generation and arguably of all time, out there to protect a lead…and to score goals….you want to claim I don’t know hockey? Pathetic.

Ah yes the good ‘ol “you clearly don’t watch hockey” line. Yes I watch hockey, I just don’t care for extremely bad and bias takes like yours.

It’s not only a minuscule amount, but the “context” you’re so desperately trying to form is just plain sad. You have no argument, just a want and need to trash Ovi. Go be a hater somewhere else, because like others have pointed out. Your opinions are garbage.

Yeah, I'm totally judging the worth of his ENTIRE SEASON on just 5 empty net goals.
C'mon man, did you forgot what this thread is about?? Or are you just intentionally being daft?

This trend has essentially boiled down to comparing the skill level of just two players; Alex Ovechkin and Evgeni Malkin. It goes without saying that they were the 2 of the 3 best players in the world at that time.

Their point totals and in particular their primary point totals are the best testament we have in determining their skill levels and the difference between them in that respect WAS about a few goals this season:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]RS+PO Combined[/TD]
[TD]Gms[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A1[/TD]
[TD]A2[/TD]
[TD]Primary Pts[/TD]
[TD]Primary Pts
Per gm[/TD]
[TD]Primary Pts per 82Gm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
Ovechkin '09[/TD]
[TD]93[/TD]
[TD]67[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]105[/TD]
[TD]1.13[/TD]
[TD]92.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
Malkin '09[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[TD]49[/TD]
[TD]64[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]113[/TD]
[TD]1.07[/TD]
[TD]87.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Or perhaps are you one of those people who thinks that playmakers don't matter and only goal scorers are needed, as if they create goals all by themselves?

When I say those goals are meaningless I'm not talking about their VALUE to the team, it goes without saying they are of some value to a team, I'm talking about it in the context of THIS THREAD. And in that respect, NO I don't think Ovechkin scoring this goal


or this one


and this ONE
count as a meaningful determination of skill and add much in determining who was the better player between the two. Simple as that.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yeah, I'm totally judging the worth of his ENTIRE SEASON on just 5 empty net goals.
C'mon man, did you forgot what this thread is about?? Or are you just intentionally being daft?

This trend has essentially boiled down to comparing the skill level of just two players; Alex Ovechkin and Evgeni Malkin. It goes without saying that they were the 2 of the 3 best players in the world at that time.

Their point totals and in particular their primary point totals are the best testament we have in determining their skill levels and the difference between them in that respect WAS about a few goals this season:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]RS+PO Combined[/TD]
[TD]Gms[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A1[/TD]
[TD]A2[/TD]
[TD]Primary Pts[/TD]
[TD]Primary Pts
Per gm[/TD]
[TD]Primary Pts per 82Gm[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
Ovechkin '09[/TD]
[TD]93[/TD]
[TD]67[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]105[/TD]
[TD]1.13[/TD]
[TD]92.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
Malkin '09[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[TD]49[/TD]
[TD]64[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]113[/TD]
[TD]1.07[/TD]
[TD]87.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Or perhaps are you one of those people who thinks that playmakers don't matter and only goal scorers are needed, as if they create goals all by themselves?

When I say those goals are meaningless I'm not talking about their VALUE to the team, it goes without saying they are of some value to a team, I'm talking about it in the context of THIS THREAD. And in that respect, NO I don't think Ovechkin scoring this goal


or this one


and this ONE
count as a meaningful determination of skill and add much in determining who was the better player between the two. Simple as that.

I stopped reading after you said this. Yes, you are

 

[Wings4Life]

I agree with the argument that Ovie taking games off when healthy does cast a bit of doubt on his PPG this season, IMO.

 

[Video Nasty]

I agree with the argument that Ovie taking games off when healthy does cast a bit of doubt on his PPG this season, IMO.

It’s a terrible argument presented by people who normally fawn over players missing 50-75% of a season and having zero issue projecting out those numbers out fully.

The guy played 79 games. He played 82 the year prior and 72 the year after (6 missed related to injury and 4 due to suspensions). We have enough data from a continuous three season stretch to draw reasonable conclusions from.

There is nothing tangible to glean from Ovechkin “taking games off when healthy” to visit his ailing grandfather during the first month of the season (two games).

What they’re not telling you is that the remaining missed game was due to having a bruised heel after being struck in practice by a slap shot from the assistant coach.

But yeah, taking 2 games off because one thinks their family isn’t going to make it really inflated his PPG.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

OV was playing over 2 minutes per game than Malkin this season too. Makes Malkin's numbers look even more impressive

 

[Midnight Judges]

OV was playing over 2 minutes per game than Malkin this season too. Makes Malkin's numbers look even more impressive

That's false.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

I agree with the argument that Ovie taking games off when healthy does cast a bit of doubt on his PPG this season, IMO.

Uf.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Why isn’t this in the History of Hockey sub forum?

Do people not realize there are other forums on here?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

That's false.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Uf.

You're correct, I was looking at the wrong row. It was only 30 seconds difference.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Why isn’t this in the History of Hockey sub forum?

Do people not realize there are other forums on here?

Why shouldn’t a poll be in the polls section?

 

[Matty Sundin]

Remember this year foundly. It was the year of the 3 russians(Ovechkin,Malkin,Datsyuk)

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Remember this year foundly. It was the year of the 3 russians(Ovechkin,Malkin,Datsyuk)

Didn't know crosby was russian

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Why shouldn’t a poll be in the polls section?

Because a significant portion of posters on the main boards are ignorant to what you’ve been asking. I’m willing to bet most of the people that have responded to these polls were less than 10 years old during the time frames in question.

The history of hockey forum exists for a reason, but it’s up to you to decide whether you want reliable data or not from these polls.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Because a significant portion of posters on the main boards are ignorant to what you’ve been asking. I’m willing to bet most of the people that have responded to these polls were less than 10 years old during the time frames in question.

The history of hockey forum exists for a reason, but it’s up to you to decide whether you want reliable data or not from these polls.

Voting results usually reflect opinions in the thread coming from more or less credible posters who are active in the HoH forum. Can’t think of any single poll where ignorant voting really screwed the final top 3 standing.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Voting results usually reflect opinions in the thread coming from more or less credible posters who are active in the HoH forum. Can’t think of any single poll where ignorant voting really screwed the final top 3 standing.

Your polls? Because if so, you don’t have a single control to test this statement. While I applaud your efforts, the results are largely biased. Some of the best posters on this forum never leave the history of hockey sub-forum.

 

[apparentlyclueless]

There's something else people are overlooking about Ovechkin that season... his best-in-league talent for racking up meaningless garbage time goals.

Expected number of goals within the last 'x' minutes/seconds of a game;
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]>3mins[/TD]
[TD]>2 mins[/TD]
[TD]>1 min[/TD]
[TD]>30 sec[/TD]
[TD]>15 sec[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]2.8[/TD]
[TD]1.9[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD]0.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[TD]1.7[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]0.15[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Actual number of goals scored within the last 'x' minutes/seconds of a game;
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]>3mins[/TD]
[TD]>2 mins[/TD]
[TD]>1 min[/TD]
[TD]>30 sec[/TD]
[TD]>15 sec[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Somehow Ovechkin exceeded his normal goal scoring production by a factor of 4 or more in the final minutes of games. Now some of these goals were important game tying or winning ones, for which each player should obviously be commended for. But most of them? Yeah no, they were the "I make myself look gud" stat padding type. Now nearly all star players are guilty of doing this, but Ovechkin? He never saw an empty net his whole life he didn't instantly fall in love with. Here's the occasions in which Ovi was spotted together with Emptynetterina in this season alone, hopefully his actual girlfriend at the time never caught the two of them together.

November 14th - empty netter(1) with 21 seconds left
December 4th - empty net assist at 19:10
December 10th - empty netter(2) at 19:08
December 28th - empty netter(3) at 19:26
January 1st - up 6 to 4 against a bad Tampa team, time to send your best defenders out on the ice to close the deal, yes? NOPE. S**** that, I haven't scored yet! Scores(4) at 18:14 to cap off the blowout win. The Caps won 50 games that season, on only 12 occasions did they win by 3 or more, with 4 being the most and only twice did they score 7 goals in a game. So yes, scoring 7 goals and winning by 3 was basically a blow out to them in '09.
February 15th - empty netter(5) with 19 seconds left
March 1st - down 6 to 1! The Caps have literally no chance of coming back to win but guess who's out there trying to score again? And score(6) he does, notching the completely meaningless goal with just 22 seconds left.
March 17th - empty net assist at 18:33
March 27th - empty netter(7) with just 7 seconds left! Phew, cutting it close on that one Ovi, was worried you weren't going to get that empty netter this time!
April 5th - empty net assist with 13 seconds left. Here he is floating around in the defensive zone doing much of nothing (at 4:26 of this video) until the puck comes to him and suddenly his interest goes from 0 to 110%

It's not an exaggeration to say that if it wasn't for Ovechkin's blatant stat padding goals(7) as listed above, he wouldn't have cleared 50 that season. Suspiciously most of these came towards the end of the season when the potential of receiving another personal accolade came into view.

Malkin had some freebies to be sure as well, but only about half as many and all of them came in the first half of the season;
October 5th - empty net assist with 2 seconds left
October 23rd - empty netter(1) at 19:09
November 1st - empty net assist with 20 seconds left
November 15th - empty net assist at 19:36
November 26th - empty netter(2) with 18 seconds left
December 18th - empty netter(3) at 19:33



It actually started sooner than that for Ovechkin. The Capitals had clinched a playoff spot by March 26th and these were his averages at that time;
22:56 total TOI
16:37 ES TOI
5:19 PP TOI
1:00 SH TOI

Ovechkin had nothing left to play for, but guess who's out there soaking up every single second of powerplay ice time he can get while simultaneously dropping off the penalty kill altogether like it was a hot potato during the teams final 7 games;
23:41 total TOI
17:07 ES TOI
6:26 PP TOI +21%
0:08 SH TOI -87%

This, and everything after, is just utter cherrypicked bullshit and If you live up to your username (edit: whoops, misread it as 'statistician' which I now noticed) you know it youself as well.

I don't have the time to look it up now, but somebody actually went and did an actual statistical analysis of the clutchest scorers in league history a couple of years ago in HoH section and if I remember Ovechkin was one of the best. In league history. For his whole career. Can't speak for this one season though but if the guy you're trying to paint as a garbage scorer is indeed one, then so is everybody else in the league history.

Edit: What the hell, went and looked it up anyway. I misremembered that there was more math involved, basically it's just a count of clutch situation (as defined in the thread) goals and points from all-time greats. See for yourself how Ovi stacks up, here's the thread:

Players REG Scoring, "Clutch Score" situations (Seasons 1917-2022).

Players REG Scoring, "Clutch Score" situations (Seasons 1917-2022). "Clutch Score" is defined as scoring in OT or 2nd half of the third period and when score is tied (including 0-0) or team is leading by 1 goal/trailing by 1 goal. GAPTS_Clutch_REG - go-ahead PTS (scoring in OT or 2nd half...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Video Nasty]

Because a significant portion of posters on the main boards are ignorant to what you’ve been asking. I’m willing to bet most of the people that have responded to these polls were less than 10 years old during the time frames in question.

The history of hockey forum exists for a reason, but it’s up to you to decide whether you want reliable data or not from these polls.

Sometimes you remind me of Jan in that old Tarantino interview.

 

[TheStatican]

This, and everything after, is just utter cherrypicked bullshit and If you live up to your username you know it youself as well.

I don't have the time to look it up now, but somebody actually went and did an actual statistical analysis of the clutchest goal scorers in league history a couple of years ago in HoH section and If I remember Ovechkin was one of the best. In league history. For his whole career. Can't speak for this one season though but if the guy you're trying to paint as a garbage scorer is indeed one, then so is everybody else in the league history.

You Ovi fans seem to have a VERY difficult time staying on topic and reading through responses. This thread is about the 08-09 season, NOT Ovechkin's entire career. I'm also NOT talking about whether Ovechkin was clutch or not. I'll repeat myself again... No actually scrap that, I'll just quote myself. Not wasting any more time talking about things I've already explained.

I'm not sayin Ovechkin wasn't still the best goal scorer in the league that season, he was. But best player? That's questionable, especially when the difference is so small between them, so why shouldn't we look at the circumstances that either may have benefited from?

Am I saying those empty netters and garbage goals should be stricken from Ovechkin's totals? Of course not. But go ahead and tell me how exactly they go to show that Ovechkin was a better and more skilled player than Malkin? Obviously they don't.

When I say those goals are meaningless I'm not talking about their VALUE to the team, it goes without saying they are of some value to a team, I'm talking about it in the context of THIS THREAD. And in that respect, NO I don't think Ovechkin scoring this goal

or this one

and this ONE
count as a meaningful determination of skill and add much in determining who was the better player between the two.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Your polls? Because if so, you don’t have a single control to test this statement. While I applaud your efforts, the results are largely biased. Some of the best posters on this forum never leave the history of hockey sub-forum.

Which exactly results/polls seem to be biased? Gun to my head I’d say it’s only 2006 as Ovechkin was better than Crosby but that’s it. Everything else is reasonably debatable.

 

[Wings4Life]

It’s a terrible argument presented by people who normally fawn over players missing 50-75% of a season and having zero issue projecting out those numbers out fully.

So you really think Ovechkin resting for a couple games as a healthy, non-injured player, and coming back from his break with his best hot streak of the season immediately after returning, was a coincidence? After his slow start?

Ok, then.

Which exactly results/polls seem to be biased? Gun to my head I’d say it’s only 2006 as Ovechkin was better than Crosby but that’s it. Everything else is reasonably debatable.

Bias aside, your polls are flawed since half the people are voting on the calendar year (eg. 2009, rather than the 2008-09 season), and the other half are not including playoffs. It's kind of a mess, TBH...but it's still fun.

 

[Video Nasty]

So you really think Ovechkin resting for a couple games as a healthy, non-injured player, and coming back from his break with his best hot streak of the season immediately after returning, was a coincidence? After his slow start?

Ok, then.


Bias aside, your polls are flawed since half the people are voting on the calendar year (eg. 2009, rather than the 2008-09 season), and the other half are not including playoffs. It's kind of a mess, TBH...but it's still fun.

I have to admit that I don't really understand the fuss you're making. You're acting like Ovechkin was some random player who got hot because he took off two games early in the season when everyone was fresh, not the player that won a Calder against Crosby, had just come off a 65 goal/112 point season where he also started "slow" with 9 goals and 16 points in his first 15 games, and was in the middle of a 3 season stretch where he won 2 Harts, was a close runner up in another, 3 Lindsays, 1 Art Ross and 2 close runner ups, 2 Rockets, and again a runner up while leading the league in Goals, Points, and PPG the whole way.

I guess I just can't read anything into what you're trying to present because this player had many hot streaks throughout his first 5 seasons that were among the best by a player until McDavid came along. He had a history of this up to that point. There was nothing strange about it.

I think what is safer to assume is that his game was possibly affected early on, as speculated in this Washington Times article from October 28, 2008, the day of the game that Ovechkin missed just his second game ever: Leave of Absence

"This will be just the second game Ovechkin has missed in his NHL career. He sat out Jan. 30, 2006, during his rookie season against the New York Islanders. Ovechkin’s streak of 203 consecutive contests was the longest on the team.

The reigning league MVP, Ovechkin has not produced to the standard he set in his first three seasons. He has two goals and three secondary assists in eight games for the Caps, and he has no tallies in the past six contests.

When asked whether he thought the health of Ovechkin’s grandfather had been on his mind, Caps coach Bruce Boudreau said, “That I don’t know because I haven’t asked him. Who knows? I didn’t ask him that question. I just told him he had to get going home because it is important for him to be with his family.”

 

[Midnight Judges]

Bias aside, your polls are flawed since half the people are voting on the calendar year (eg. 2009, rather than the 2008-09 season), and the other half are not including playoffs. It's kind of a mess, TBH...but it's still fun.

A lot of people will vote for their guy regardless, and if there isn't a rational basis for voting for their guy, they simply change the question onto something else until they think they can justify it.

OP made clear these are seasons he's polling for - and everyone should have know that anyway seeing as how practically nobody looks at hockey through a calendar year view.