Best player in the world: 2009

[wetcoast]

Your whole point was that Malkin had, and I quote...

...from playing together with Crosby for "half"(40% btw, not half) of his ice time, referencing their "powerplay" time in particular.

So how exactly did that provide "an advantage" to Malkin in the scoring race if they:

On said powerplay?

You have to help us out here because it's an incredibly bizarre argument.

Bizarre arguments are par for the course with said poster.

For that season Washington had the better PP unit placing 2nd in PP% while Pittsburg was 20th.

Claiming that Malkin had an advantage is pure BS.

 

[TheStatican]

There's something else people are overlooking about Ovechkin that season... his best-in-league talent for racking up meaningless garbage time goals.

Expected number of goals within the last 'x' minutes/seconds of a game;
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]>3mins[/TD]
[TD]>2 mins[/TD]
[TD]>1 min[/TD]
[TD]>30 sec[/TD]
[TD]>15 sec[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]2.8[/TD]
[TD]1.9[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD]0.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[TD]1.7[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]0.15[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Actual number of goals scored within the last 'x' minutes/seconds of a game;
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]>3mins[/TD]
[TD]>2 mins[/TD]
[TD]>1 min[/TD]
[TD]>30 sec[/TD]
[TD]>15 sec[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Somehow Ovechkin exceeded his normal goal scoring production by a factor of 4 or more in the final minutes of games. Now some of these goals were important game tying or winning ones, for which each player should obviously be commended for. But most of them? Yeah no, they were the "I make myself look gud" stat padding type. Now nearly all star players are guilty of doing this, but Ovechkin? He never saw an empty net his whole life he didn't instantly fall in love with. Here's the occasions in which Ovi was spotted together with Emptynetterina in this season alone, hopefully his actual girlfriend at the time never caught the two of them together.

November 14th - empty netter(1) with 21 seconds left
December 4th - empty net assist at 19:10
December 10th - empty netter(2) at 19:08
December 28th - empty netter(3) at 19:26
January 1st - up 6 to 4 against a bad Tampa team, time to send your best defenders out on the ice to close the deal, yes? NOPE. S**** that, I haven't scored yet! Scores(4) at 18:14 to cap off the blowout win. The Caps won 50 games that season, on only 12 occasions did they win by 3 or more, with 4 being the most and only twice did they score 7 goals in a game. So yes, scoring 7 goals and winning by 3 was basically a blow out to them in '09.
February 15th - empty netter(5) with 19 seconds left
March 1st - down 6 to 1! The Caps have literally no chance of coming back to win but guess who's out there trying to score again? And score(6) he does, notching the completely meaningless goal with just 22 seconds left.
March 17th - empty net assist at 18:33
March 27th - empty netter(7) with just 7 seconds left! Phew, cutting it close on that one Ovi, was worried you weren't going to get that empty netter this time!
April 5th - empty net assist with 13 seconds left. Here he is floating around in the defensive zone doing much of nothing (at 4:26 of this video) until the puck comes to him and suddenly his interest goes from 0 to 110%

It's not an exaggeration to say that if it wasn't for Ovechkin's blatant stat padding goals(7) as listed above, he wouldn't have cleared 50 that season. Suspiciously most of these came towards the end of the season when the potential of receiving another personal accolade came into view.

Malkin had some freebies to be sure as well, but only about half as many and all of them came in the first half of the season;
October 5th - empty net assist with 2 seconds left
October 23rd - empty netter(1) at 19:09
November 1st - empty net assist with 20 seconds left
November 15th - empty net assist at 19:36
November 26th - empty netter(2) with 18 seconds left
December 18th - empty netter(3) at 19:33

Also, with a less than 1 point difference on the year according to PPG, score effects come into play. With just 4 games left to play in the regular season, Malkin is comfortably ahead of Ovechkin by 4 points, and both players have nearly identical TOI numbers per game at thus stage. Ovechkin is chasing Malkin, and still has some hope of catching him, and receives the following icetimes in the final 4 games of the season: 25:21, 20:08, 23:15, 23:19. He puts up 6 points. Malkin meanwhile is on cruise control in the lead, and his icetimes were: 22:19, 18:20, 16:53, and 19:37, well below his final season average of 22:31. He only puts up 5 points in his last 4 games as a result.

It actually started sooner than that for Ovechkin. The Capitals had clinched a playoff spot by March 26th and these were his averages at that time;
22:56 total TOI
16:37 ES TOI
5:19 PP TOI
1:00 SH TOI

Ovechkin had nothing left to play for, but guess who's out there soaking up every single second of powerplay ice time he can get while simultaneously dropping off the penalty kill altogether like it was a hot potato during the teams final 7 games;
23:41 total TOI
17:07 ES TOI
6:26 PP TOI +21%
0:08 SH TOI -87%

 

[filinski77]

There's something else people are overlooking about Ovechkin that season... his best-in-league talent for racking up meaningless garbage time goals.

Expected number of goals within the last 'x' minutes/seconds of a game;
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]>3mins[/TD]
[TD]>2 mins[/TD]
[TD]>1 min[/TD]
[TD]>30 sec[/TD]
[TD]>15 sec[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]2.8[/TD]
[TD]1.9[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD]0.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[TD]1.7[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]0.15[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Actual number of goals scored within the last 'x' minutes/seconds of a game;
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]>3mins[/TD]
[TD]>2 mins[/TD]
[TD]>1 min[/TD]
[TD]>30 sec[/TD]
[TD]>15 sec[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Somehow Ovechkin exceeded his normal goal scoring production by a factor of 4 or more in the final minutes of games. Now some of these goals were important game tying or winning ones, for which each player should obviously be commended for. But most of them? Yeah no, they were the "I make myself look gud" stat padding type. Now nearly all star players are guilty of doing this, but Ovechkin? He never saw an empty net his whole life he didn't instantly fall in love with. Here's the occasions in which Ovi was spotted together with Emptynetterina in this season alone, hopefully his actual girlfriend at the time never caught the two of them together.

November 14th - empty netter(1) with 21 seconds left
December 4th - empty net assist at 19:10
December 10th - empty netter(2) at 19:08
December 28th - empty netter(3) at 19:26
January 1st - up 6 to 4 against a bad Tampa team, time to send your best defenders out on the ice to close the deal, yes? NOPE. S**** that, I haven't scored yet! Scores(4) at 18:14 to cap off the blowout win. The Caps won 50 games that season, on only 12 occasions did they win by 3 or more, with 4 being the most and only twice did they score 7 goals in a game. So yes, scoring 7 goals and winning by 3 was basically a blow out to them in '09.
February 15th - empty netter(5) with 19 seconds left
March 1st - down 6 to 1! The Caps have literally no chance of coming back to win but guess who's out there trying to score again? And score(6) he does, notching the completely meaningless goal with just 22 seconds left.
March 17th - empty net assist at 18:33
March 27th - empty netter(7) with just 7 seconds left! Phew, cutting it close on that one Ovi, was worried you weren't going to get that empty netter this time!
April 5th - empty net assist with 13 seconds left. Here he is floating around in the defensive zone doing much of nothing (at 4:26 of this video) until the puck comes to him and suddenly his interest goes from 0 to 110%

It's not an exaggeration to say that if it wasn't for Ovechkin's blatant stat padding goals(7) as listed above, he wouldn't have cleared 50 that season. Suspiciously most of these came towards the end of the season when the potential of receiving another personal accolade came into view.

Malkin had some freebies to be sure as well, but only about half as many and all of them came in the first half of the season;
October 5th - empty net assist with 2 seconds left
October 23rd - empty netter(1) at 19:09
November 1st - empty net assist with 20 seconds left
November 15th - empty net assist at 19:36
November 26th - empty netter(2) with 18 seconds left
December 18th - empty netter(3) at 19:33



It actually started sooner than that for Ovechkin. The Capitals had clinched a playoff spot by March 26th and these were his averages at that time;
22:56 total TOI
16:37 ES TOI
5:19 PP TOI
1:00 SH TOI

Ovechkin had nothing left to play for, but guess who's out there soaking up every single second of powerplay ice time he can get while simultaneously dropping off the penalty kill altogether like it was a hot potato during the teams final 7 games;
23:41 total TOI
17:07 ES TOI
6:26 PP TOI +21%
0:08 SH TOI -87%

What a f***ing stretch LOL.

Ovechkin only had 2 more empty net points than Malkin did that year. And only 2 more EN goals.

Malkin had 3 ENG goals that year (to Ovi’s 5). By your one chart, 100% of Malkins goals within the last 3 minutes of the game were likely empty net goals (unless he had some ENG’s with more than 3 minutes left).

 

[norrisnick]

Bizarre arguments are par for the course with said poster.

For that season Washington had the better PP unit placing 2nd in PP% while Pittsburg was 20th.

Claiming that Malkin had an advantage is pure BS.

And you don't think the players on said PP units had anything to do with that? Shouldn't the players in questions get some credit and/or blame for those performances?

 

[TheStatican]

What a f***ing stretch LOL.

Ovechkin only had 2 more empty net points than Malkin did that year. And only 2 more EN goals.

Malkin had 3 ENG goals that year (to Ovi’s 5). By your one chart, 100% of Malkins goals within the last 3 minutes of the game were likely empty net goals (unless he had some ENG’s with more than 3 minutes left).

What stretch? That's what actually happened. Think I'm making this up? Go look at the links.

I've thoroughly documented both of their late game garbage time goals. Ovechkin had 5 empty net goals, and 2 other completely meaningless late game goals for 7 in total. Why include those two? Why the heck not? Can you tell me what in the **** Ovechkin is thinking even being out there with less than a minute to play with his team being blown out 6 to 1?? He's solely thinking about padding his stats that's what. Very few teams would have sent out their best player for such a lost cause with just seconds left in the game - they'd have their 3rd or 4th liners out there finishing off the game but apparently not "Mr. Super 8, I get 'em late"! Do you think the Panthers were even trying at that point? Half heartily at best. The game was over but sure, real impressive display of skill on Ovi's part to be out there and get that one.

Malkin meanwhile had just the 3 empty netters and no other late game goals. No the numbers aren't huge and I'm not sayin Ovechkin wasn't still the best goal scorer in the league that season, he was. But best player? That's questionable, especially when the difference is so small between them, so why shouldn't we look at the circumstances that either may have benefited from?

Am I saying those empty netters and garbage goals should be stricken from Ovechkin's totals? Of course not. But go ahead and tell me how exactly they go to show that Ovechkin was a better and more skilled player than Malkin? Obviously they don't.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Absolutely, goals should be valued more than assists... However it's not assists in general that are overvalued in point totals, it's secondary assists. I mean haven't you repeatedly made mentions of the lesser value of secondary assists in the board previously yourself? IIRC, you've made erroneous claims that certain players had a higher proportion of them then they actually did.

Anyhow, all points by the NHL's standards are equal, a goal being equivalent to a primary assist and secondary assist, but behaviorally we know this is false. Goals and primary assists are both strong indicators of positive offensive impact. Primary assists are almost always as essential as goals are when it comes to goal creation. Secondary assists however tend to be noisy and more random in nature, the totals for which often regress heavily in future periods. Knowledgeable people who follow the sport generally agree that a goal could be considered as being slightly more valuable than a primary assist, but significantly more valuable than a secondary assist, on average. This is not a dig at Ovechkin, I'm not saying he racked up a huge number of secondary assists, but neither did Malkin.


With that in mind here were each players totals for the season;
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]

​

Regular Season​

[/TD]

[TD]

Gms​

[/TD]

[TD]

G​

[/TD]

[TD]

A1​

[/TD]

[TD]

A2​

[/TD]

[TD]

Primary Pts​

[/TD]

[TD]

​

Per gm​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

​

Ovechkin '09​

[/TD]

[TD]

79​

[/TD]

[TD]

56​

[/TD]

[TD]

32​

[/TD]

[TD]

22 (41%)​

[/TD]

[TD]

88 (80%)​

[/TD]

[TD]

1.11​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

​

Malkin '09​

[/TD]

[TD]

82​

[/TD]

[TD]

35​

[/TD]

[TD]

47​

[/TD]

[TD]

31 (40%)​

[/TD]

[TD]

82 (73%)​

[/TD]

[TD]

1.00​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Ovechkin has still has the edge but he's not "60% better", he's just 7% better in total and 11% better per game.

In the playoffs Malkin has the edge:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]

​

Playoffs​

[/TD]

[TD]

Gms​

[/TD]

[TD]

G​

[/TD]

[TD]

A1​

[/TD]

[TD]

A2​

[/TD]

[TD]

Primary Pts​

[/TD]

[TD]

​

Per gm​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

​

Ovechkin '09​

[/TD]

[TD]

14​

[/TD]

[TD]

11​

[/TD]

[TD]

6​

[/TD]

[TD]

4​

[/TD]

[TD]

17​

[/TD]

[TD]

1.21​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

​

Malkin '09​

[/TD]

[TD]

24​

[/TD]

[TD]

14​

[/TD]

[TD]

17​

[/TD]

[TD]

5​

[/TD]

[TD]

31​

[/TD]

[TD]

1.29​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

When you combine the two the difference between them is minimal:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]

​

RS+PO Combined​

[/TD]

[TD]

Gms​

[/TD]

[TD]

G​

[/TD]

[TD]

A1​

[/TD]

[TD]

A2​

[/TD]

[TD]

Primary Pts​

[/TD]

[TD]

​

Per gm​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

​

Ovechkin '09​

[/TD]

[TD]

93​

[/TD]

[TD]

67​

[/TD]

[TD]

38​

[/TD]

[TD]

26 (41%)​

[/TD]

[TD]

105 (80%)​

[/TD]

[TD]

1.13​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

​

Malkin '09​

[/TD]

[TD]

106​

[/TD]

[TD]

49​

[/TD]

[TD]

64​

[/TD]

[TD]

36 (36%)​

[/TD]

[TD]

113 (76%)​

[/TD]

[TD]

1.07​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Ovi's still got a large goals edge, which as I noted should still be considered a little more valuable than primary assists, but secondary assists while being worth less, are not entirely worthless and Malkin essentially makes up for the goals gap by virtue of having more of those.

You have full blown confused yourself.

Ovechkin's PPG was higher. Ovechkin's GPG was way 56% higher (counting regular season and playoffs). Ovechkin's primary PPG was higher.

There is no making up the difference with secondary assists. It's already factored in to PPG. It is simply less meaningful point production from Malkin. Full stop.

I'm not saying the difference between them was massive, but it was a clear difference.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Bizarre arguments are par for the course with said poster.

For that season Washington had the better PP unit placing 2nd in PP% while Pittsburg was 20th.

Claiming that Malkin had an advantage is pure BS.

Ovechkin made the Washington powerplay better. That is to his credit.

I guess your point is that Malkin was suffering on the powerplay with the lowly Sidney Crosby who doesn't make anyone around him better - an argument you have surely made on numerous occasions.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I love how scoring late in games is normally seen as clutch, but when it's Ovechkin it's somehow turned into stat padding. The 2009 Capitals had a garbage defense and crap goaltending, but we're going to revise history and pretend icing games is worth less now.

What are the chances that this same Pens fan ever went back and accused Sidney Crosby (who leads his generation in EN points) of stat padding with late game points? I'm not exactly going out on a limb by guessing the likelihood of that is precisely 0.00%.

 

[filinski77]

What stretch? That's what actually happened. Think I'm making this up? Go look at the links.

I've thoroughly documented both of their late game garbage time goals. Ovechkin had 5 empty net goals, and 2 other completely meaningless late game goals for 7 in total. Why include those two? Why the heck not? Can you tell me what in the **** Ovechkin is thinking even being out there with less than a minute to play with his team being blown out 6 to 1?? He's solely thinking about padding his stats that's what. Very few teams would have sent out their best player for such a lost cause with just seconds left in the game - they'd have their 3rd or 4th liners out there finishing off the game but apparently not "Mr. Super 8, I get 'em late"! Do you think the Panthers were even trying at that point? Half heartily at best. The game was over but sure, real impressive display of skill on Ovi's part to be out there and get that one.

Malkin meanwhile had just the 3 empty netters and no other late game goals. No the numbers aren't huge and I'm not sayin Ovechkin wasn't still the best goal scorer in the league that season, he was. But best player? That's questionable, especially when the difference is so small between them, so why shouldn't we look at the circumstances that either may have benefited from?

Am I saying those empty netters and garbage goals should be stricken from Ovechkin's totals? Of course not. But go ahead and tell me how exactly they go to show that Ovechkin was a better and more skilled player than Malkin? Obviously they don't.

So because Malkin had 3 empty netters and no other late game goals, can we assert that Malkin was not clutch and wasn't good when the going got tough at the end of a game? I'm not trying to make that argument, but it's just as silly of an argument as the one you're making.

You look at only late game goals and points as you're metric for stat padding, by only looking at points from the last 3 minutes of a game. What about a 4-0 game where a point is scored with 15 minutes left? That's JUST as much of a stat padding situation as what you're saying.

" But go ahead and tell me how exactly they go to show that Ovechkin was a better and more skilled player than Malkin? Obviously they don't."
-> But what you're showing here is nothing that DISPROVES Ovechkin was a better player.

 

[TheStatican]

You have full blown confused yourself.

You are the confused one my friend. First you contradict yourself then the point flew over your head:

There is no making up the difference with secondary assists. It's already factored in to PPG. It is simply less meaningful point production from Malkin. Full stop.

First off there is no difference before secondary assists. Goals are worth way more than secondary assists, to be sure. They are not worth way more than primary assists, they're practically of equal value.

Take out those easy to get garbage time cheapies and their primary point numbers are 108 to 97, ppg rates of 1.03 to 1.04 That's before making any consideration for secondary assists - Whatever that may be, however little it may be, it's not zero like you seem to be insinuating. Which gives a slight edge, "never said it was big one", to Malkin.

 

[TheStatican]

You look at only late game goals and points as you're metric for stat padding, by only looking at points from the last 3 minutes of a game. What about a 4-0 game where a point is scored with 15 minutes left? That's JUST as much of a stat padding situation as what you're saying.

Absolutely, we can also take a look at games in which Malkin scored while his team was up by 4-0 or heck lets make it even more inclusive, at any time in the third where the Pens were up by any four goal margin.

Here's the total number of times he scored in that situation:

Spoiler: number of times

ZERO.

Interesting enough Ovechkin however DID have one of those:
Dec 12th against the Senators - Caps up 4-0 and ofc he's out there, on the powerplay and scores to make it 5-0 with less than 6 minutes left in the game, nevermind 15 minutes. That kinda backfired now didn't it?

So because Malkin had 3 empty netters and no other late game goals, can we assert that Malkin was not clutch and wasn't good when the going got tough at the end of a game? I'm not trying to make that argument, but it's just as silly of an argument as the one you're making.

Man you REALLY didn't do the research did you? Because you just stepped on a massive land mine and helped give me an even more significant reason why Malkin has the edge on Ovi in '09.

Empty netters are by far the easiest type of goal to score possible and are hardly a meaningful demonstration of being "clutch", especially when a team is up by two goals. A FAR better demonstration of a players clutch abilities is scoring or assisting on goals in actual difficult and unlikely to score situations such as when your team is either down by a goal, the game is tied late in the third or being involved in the overtime winner. Malkin MORE than demonstrated his clutch abilities during that season through the following examples;

Nov 11th against the Wings - Assists on the game tying goal at 19:37 of the third, Pens win 7-6 in overtime
Nov 13th against the Flyers - Assists on the game winning goal at 17:27 in the third resulting in a 5-4 victory
Nov 20th against the Thrashers - Assists on the game winning goal at 17:20 in the third resulting in a 3-2 victory
Nov 26th against the Islanders - scores two goals less than a minute apart halfway through the third allowing the Pens to comeback from a 2-3 deficit and giving the team a 4-3 lead, ultimately resulting in a 5-3 victory
December 26th against Buffalo - Assists on the game tying goal halfway through the third, then assists on the game winning overtime goal
Feb 4th against the Lightning - First he assists on the game tying goal late in the third, then he scores the game winner in overtime
Feb 25th against the Islanders - Assists on the game winning goal at 17:32 late in the third resulting in a 1-0 victory
February 27th against Chicago - Scores the game winning goal in overtime
March 12th against the Blue Jackets - Assists on two goals minutes apart halfway through the third allowing the Pens to comeback from a 1-3 deficit and tie the game. The team would ultimately lose in a shootout but he was pivotal in at least allowing them to grab a point

Malkin's late game efforts were directly responsible for 8 of the teams 45 victories and 17 points in total that season. And that's just in the regular season, then all this happened in the playoffs that he dominated:

April 17th against the Flyers - Scores the game tying goal at 16:23 and then in the same game assists on the winning goal in overtime resulting in a 3-2 victory and 2 to none series lead
May 6th against the Capitals - Scores a vital go ahead goal at 15:01 of the third to give the Pens a 2-1 lead in a game they would ultimately win in overtime 3-2, aiding the Pens in winning a pivotal game three while being down two games to none verses the Caps.
May 9th against the Capitals - I'm sure Cap's fans remember this one, scores the game winning goal in overtime resulting in a 4-3 victory and a 3 games to 2 series lead
May 11 against the Capitals - Although the Pens would ultimately lose this game, he assisted on the game tying goal at 15:42 of the third to at least send the game into overtime
May 18th against the Hurricanes - Assists on the game winning goal halfway through the third, resulting in a 3-2 victory and a 1 to none series lead
May 21st against the Hurricanes - Scores what would end up being the game winning goal halfway through the third, to give the Pens a 5 to 4 lead. Then scores AGAIN just over minutes later for an insurance goal leading to a 7 to 4 victory(Pens defensive line added an empty netter later) and 2 to none series lead
June 2nd against the Wings - Assists on the game winning goal halfway through the third, resulting in a 4-2 victory aiding the Pens in winning a pivotal game three while being down two games to none in the Stanley Cup Finals.


So please tell me more about how Malkin wasn't "clutch" that season.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You are the confused one my friend. First you contradict yourself then the point flew over your head:

First off there is no difference before secondary assists. Goals are worth way more than secondary assists, to be sure. They are not worth way more than primary assists, they're practically of equal value.

Take out those easy to get garbage time cheapies and their primary point numbers are 108 to 97, ppg rates of 1.03 to 1.04 That's before making any consideration for secondary assists - Whatever that may be, however little it may be, it's not zero like you seem to be insinuating. Which gives a slight edge, "never said it was big one", to Malkin.

Yeah that's gibberish though because your attack is utterly one-sided (nevermind invalid). We could go point by point and see who got cheapies, but you and I both know that's going to be the guy who had more assists because assists are far more likely to be cheapies than goals.

 

[dm1371]

It's Malkin

 

[filinski77]

Absolutely, we can also take a look at games in which Malkin scored while his team was up by 4-0 or heck lets make it even more inclusive, at any time in the third where the Pens were up by any four goal margin.

Here's the total number of times he scored in that situation:

Spoiler: number of times

ZERO.

Interesting enough Ovechkin however DID have one of those:
Dec 12th against the Senators - Caps up 4-0 and ofc he's out there, on the powerplay and scores to make it 5-0 with less than 6 minutes left in the game, nevermind 15 minutes. That kinda backfired now didn't it?



Man you REALLY didn't do the research did you? Because you just stepped on a massive land mine and helped give me an even more significant reason why Malkin has the edge on Ovi in '09.

Empty netters are by far the easiest type of goal to score possible and are hardly a meaningful demonstration of being "clutch", especially when a team is up by two goals. A FAR better demonstration of a players clutch abilities is scoring or assisting on goals in actual difficult and unlikely to score situations such as when your team is either down by a goal, the game is tied late in the third or being involved in the overtime winner. Malkin MORE than demonstrated his clutch abilities during that season through the following examples;

Nov 11th against the Wings - Assists on the game tying goal at 19:37 of the third, Pens win 7-6 in overtime
Nov 13th against the Flyers - Assists on the game winning goal at 17:27 in the third resulting in a 5-4 victory
Nov 20th against the Thrashers - Assists on the game winning goal at 17:20 in the third resulting in a 3-2 victory
Nov 26th against the Islanders - scores two goals less than a minute apart halfway through the third allowing the Pens to comeback from a 2-3 deficit and giving the team a 4-3 lead, ultimately resulting in a 5-3 victory
December 26th against Buffalo - Assists on the game tying goal halfway through the third, then assists on the game winning overtime goal
Feb 4th against the Lightning - First he assists on the game tying goal late in the third, then he scores the game winner in overtime
Feb 25th against the Islanders - Assists on the game winning goal at 17:32 late in the third resulting in a 1-0 victory
February 27th against Chicago - Scores the game winning goal in overtime
March 12th against the Blue Jackets - Assists on two goals minutes apart halfway through the third allowing the Pens to comeback from a 1-3 deficit and tie the game. The team would ultimately lose in a shootout but he was pivotal in at least allowing them to grab a point

Malkin's late game efforts were directly responsible for 8 of the teams 45 victories and 17 points in total that season. And that's just in the regular season, then all this happened in the playoffs that he dominated:

April 17th against the Flyers - Scores the game tying goal at 16:23 and then in the same game assists on the winning goal in overtime resulting in a 3-2 victory and 2 to none series lead
May 6th against the Capitals - Scores a vital go ahead goal at 15:01 of the third to give the Pens a 2-1 lead in a game they would ultimately win in overtime 3-2, aiding the Pens in winning a pivotal game three while being down two games to none verses the Caps.
May 9th against the Capitals - I'm sure Cap's fans remember this one, scores the game winning goal in overtime resulting in a 4-3 victory and a 3 games to 2 series lead
May 11 against the Capitals - Although the Pens would ultimately lose this game, he assisted on the game tying goal at 15:42 of the third to at least send the game into overtime
May 18th against the Hurricanes - Assists on the game winning goal halfway through the third, resulting in a 3-2 victory and a 1 to none series lead
May 21st against the Hurricanes - Scores what would end up being the game winning goal halfway through the third, to give the Pens a 5 to 4 lead. Then scores AGAIN just over minutes later for an insurance goal leading to a 7 to 4 victory(Pens defensive line added an empty netter later) and 2 to none series lead
June 2nd against the Wings - Assists on the game winning goal halfway through the third, resulting in a 4-2 victory aiding the Pens in winning a pivotal game three while being down two games to none in the Stanley Cup Finals.


So please tell me more about how Malkin wasn't "clutch" that season.

What you're doing is cherry picking like 10 points out of a whole season, and applying random context to a much larger and broad question. For someone with a username all about stats, you sure know nothing about how to effectively come to a conclusion using the stats.

Like we really don't need to go this far deep into random shit like this.

	Ovechkin	Malkin
Points	110​	113​
Goals	56​	35​
Games	79​	82​

-> Ovechkin was an equal overall point producer, while being a significantly better goal scorer. The massive gap in goalscoring should not be ignored when all else high-level is equal. Ovechkin also didn't have a prime Crosby that factored in on almost half of his points (which I believed another player mentioned). The Crosby factor alone (a top-10 player all-time, and probably considered top-5 by you) is larger than any single 5 or 6 point random context that you're trying to pick apart.

	Ovechkin	Malkin
ENP	8​	6​
ENG	5​	3​
Hits	243​	80​
FO%	N/A	42.40%​
1st goal of the game	9​	4​
OT Goals	2​	2​
Game winning goals	10​	4​
Corsi%	63.70%​	55.50%​
Corsi % Rel.	16.70%​	12.30%​
PDO	102.1​	103.6​

-> ENP and ENG are so close that there's nothing here to really differentiate from one to another.
-> Hits: Ovechkin was a beast and that needs to be considered
-> FO%: As a Center, you get much more touches which leads to more assists on average, but he also has to take faceoffs. Malkin sucked in the dot.
-> 1st goal of the game, GWG etc: Ovechkin better.
-> Advanced stats from around this time are hard to find, but using the basic (but not perfect) Corsi + PDO, Ovechkin was just simply a better player overall based on this, despite not being great defensively, he was such a beast offensively it more than made up for it.

	Ovechkin	Malkin
Takeaways	60​	94​
Giveaways	107​	81​
Net takeaways/gp	(0.59)	0.14

-> People going off about takeways and giveaways. But Malkin had only net 0.14 takeaways per game. Literally a nothing stat in reality. For Ovechkin, despite having a new giveaway of 0.59 per game (which is also not really useful for any analysis), he still had much better overall impact on the game.

 

[TheStatican]

Yeah that's gibberish though because your attack is utterly one-sided (nevermind invalid). We could go point by point and see who got cheapies,

i litterally already did that. But hey, you do you.

What you're doing is cherry picking like 10 points out of a whole season, and applying random context to a much larger and broad question. For someone with a username all about stats, you sure know nothing about how to effectively come to a conclusion using the stats.

Like we really don't need to go this far deep into random shit like this.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Points[/TD]

[TD]

110​

[/TD]

[TD]

113​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Goals[/TD]

[TD]

56​

[/TD]

[TD]

35​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Games[/TD]

[TD]

79​

[/TD]

[TD]

82​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

-> Ovechkin was an equal overall point producer, while being a significantly better goal scorer. The massive gap in goalscoring should not be ignored when all else high-level is equal. Ovechkin also didn't have a prime Crosby that factored in on almost half of his points (which I believed another player mentioned). The Crosby factor alone (a top-10 player all-time, and probably considered top-5 by you) is larger than any single 5 or 6 point random context that you're trying to pick apart.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ENP[/TD]

[TD]

8​

[/TD]

[TD]

6​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ENG[/TD]

[TD]

5​

[/TD]

[TD]

3​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hits[/TD]

[TD]

243​

[/TD]

[TD]

80​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]FO%[/TD]
[TD]N/A[/TD]

[TD]

42.40%​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st goal of the game[/TD]

[TD]

9​

[/TD]

[TD]

4​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]OT Goals[/TD]

[TD]

2​

[/TD]

[TD]

2​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Game winning goals[/TD]

[TD]

10​

[/TD]

[TD]

4​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Corsi%[/TD]

[TD]

63.70%​

[/TD]

[TD]

55.50%​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Corsi % Rel.[/TD]

[TD]

16.70%​

[/TD]

[TD]

12.30%​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PDO[/TD]

[TD]

102.1​

[/TD]

[TD]

103.6​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

-> ENP and ENG are so close that there's nothing here to really differentiate from one to another.
-> Hits: Ovechkin was a beast and that needs to be considered
-> FO%: As a Center, you get much more touches which leads to more assists on average, but he also has to take faceoffs. Malkin sucked in the dot.
-> 1st goal of the game, GWG etc: Ovechkin better.
-> Advanced stats from around this time are hard to find, but using the basic (but not perfect) Corsi + PDO, Ovechkin was just simply a better player overall based on this, despite not being great defensively, he was such a beast offensively it more than made up for it.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Takeaways[/TD]

[TD]

60​

[/TD]

[TD]

94​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Giveaways[/TD]

[TD]

107​

[/TD]

[TD]

81​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Net takeaways/gp[/TD]
[TD](0.59)[/TD]
[TD]0.14[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

-> People going off about takeways and giveaways. But Malkin had only net 0.14 takeaways per game. Literally a nothing stat in reality. For Ovechkin, despite having a new giveaway of 0.59 per game (which is also not really useful for any analysis), he still had much better overall impact on the game.

Hits, first goals and game winning goals? Theres never been any proof anywhere that being more physical wins you games. Most games don't end in a 1-0 draw so first goals are not somehow magically much more imporant than a teams second goal or third goal. All goal based stats like these ignore the value of primary assists. And game winning goals are an inaccurate measure of cluchness since it considers a goal like the first goal in a 6 to 0 blowout to be of the same value as an overtime winner. Then first some reason you bring up takeaways and giveaways and then write it off as being unimportant. Ok?

I gave you 20 specific instances, in 16 separate games where Malkin made a profound game changing and winning difference. I see you have no response to being proven blatantly wrong about Malkin's supposed "lack of clutch" and now your resorting to using virtually meaningless stats. Right, thanks for coming out.

 

[Midnight Judges]

i litterally already did that. But hey, you do you.

You absolutely didn't. You cherry picked.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ENP[/TD]

[TD]

8​

[/TD]

[TD]

6​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ENG[/TD]

[TD]

5​

[/TD]

[TD]

3​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hits[/TD]

[TD]

243​

[/TD]

[TD]

80​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]FO%[/TD]
[TD]N/A[/TD]

[TD]

42.40%​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st goal of the game[/TD]

[TD]

9​

[/TD]

[TD]

4​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]OT Goals[/TD]

[TD]

2​

[/TD]

[TD]

2​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Game winning goals[/TD]

[TD]

10​

[/TD]

[TD]

4​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Corsi%[/TD]

[TD]

63.70%​

[/TD]

[TD]

55.50%​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Corsi % Rel.[/TD]

[TD]

16.70%​

[/TD]

[TD]

12.30%​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PDO[/TD]

[TD]

102.1​

[/TD]

[TD]

103.6​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Takeaways[/TD]

[TD]

60​

[/TD]

[TD]

94​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Giveaways[/TD]

[TD]

107​

[/TD]

[TD]

81​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Net takeaways/gp[/TD]
[TD](0.59)[/TD]
[TD]0.14[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Let’s not completely hide the fact that in addition to Ovie getting spanked in both takeaways and giveaways, Ovechkin’s faceoff percentage was 25% that year, a whopping 10.3% below his career average, for when he’s forced to take a faceoff.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

What you're doing is cherry picking like 10 points out of a whole season, and applying random context to a much larger and broad question. For someone with a username all about stats, you sure know nothing about how to effectively come to a conclusion using the stats.

Like we really don't need to go this far deep into random shit like this.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Points[/TD]

[TD]

110​

[/TD]

[TD]

113​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Goals[/TD]

[TD]

56​

[/TD]

[TD]

35​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Games[/TD]

[TD]

79​

[/TD]

[TD]

82​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

-> Ovechkin was an equal overall point producer, while being a significantly better goal scorer. The massive gap in goalscoring should not be ignored when all else high-level is equal. Ovechkin also didn't have a prime Crosby that factored in on almost half of his points (which I believed another player mentioned). The Crosby factor alone (a top-10 player all-time, and probably considered top-5 by you) is larger than any single 5 or 6 point random context that you're trying to pick apart.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ENP[/TD]

[TD]

8​

[/TD]

[TD]

6​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ENG[/TD]

[TD]

5​

[/TD]

[TD]

3​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hits[/TD]

[TD]

243​

[/TD]

[TD]

80​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]FO%[/TD]
[TD]N/A[/TD]

[TD]

42.40%​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st goal of the game[/TD]

[TD]

9​

[/TD]

[TD]

4​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]OT Goals[/TD]

[TD]

2​

[/TD]

[TD]

2​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Game winning goals[/TD]

[TD]

10​

[/TD]

[TD]

4​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Corsi%[/TD]

[TD]

63.70%​

[/TD]

[TD]

55.50%​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Corsi % Rel.[/TD]

[TD]

16.70%​

[/TD]

[TD]

12.30%​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PDO[/TD]

[TD]

102.1​

[/TD]

[TD]

103.6​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

-> ENP and ENG are so close that there's nothing here to really differentiate from one to another.
-> Hits: Ovechkin was a beast and that needs to be considered
-> FO%: As a Center, you get much more touches which leads to more assists on average, but he also has to take faceoffs. Malkin sucked in the dot.
-> 1st goal of the game, GWG etc: Ovechkin better.
-> Advanced stats from around this time are hard to find, but using the basic (but not perfect) Corsi + PDO, Ovechkin was just simply a better player overall based on this, despite not being great defensively, he was such a beast offensively it more than made up for it.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]Malkin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Takeaways[/TD]

[TD]

60​

[/TD]

[TD]

94​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Giveaways[/TD]

[TD]

107​

[/TD]

[TD]

81​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Net takeaways/gp[/TD]
[TD](0.59)[/TD]
[TD]0.14[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

-> People going off about takeways and giveaways. But Malkin had only net 0.14 takeaways per game. Literally a nothing stat in reality. For Ovechkin, despite having a new giveaway of 0.59 per game (which is also not really useful for any analysis), he still had much better overall impact on the game.

Why are you so afraid of further context?

If you really believed your guy was better you would welcome it.

 

[filinski77]

Let’s not completely hide the fact that in addition to Ovie getting spanked in both takeaways and giveaways, Ovechkin’s faceoff percentage was 25% that year, a whopping 10.3% below his career average, for when he’s forced to take a faceoff.

How many face offs did Ovechkin take? Explain to me how his % is relevant when he’s not a centre.

Why are you so afraid of further context?

If you really believed your guy was better you would welcome it.

Because the context does not accurately lead to any real big picture conclusion. It’s cherry picked small ticket items being used to insinuate something much larger than they actually do.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Why are you so afraid of further context?

If you really believed your guy was better you would welcome it.

Further context? What context? His “context” is pushing this agenda that Ovi scores “garbage goals” because he had 10 empty netters in a span of two years. If that’s enough of a sell for you, then I don’t know what to say.

Yes, how dare Ovechkin protect his teams lead by scoring. The shame…the audacity…what a bum.

 

[TheStatican]

Further context? What context? His “context” is pushing this agenda that Ovi scores “garbage goals” because he had 10 empty netters in a span of two years. If that’s enough of a sell for you, then I don’t know what to say.

Yes, how dare Ovechkin protect his teams lead by scoring. The shame…the audacity…what a bum.

You are completely missing the point. The point isn't about weather or not those goals are important - It's about the skill level require to score them. We are judging players by their skill level here NOT THEIR VALUE.

Do you watch hockey at all?? Are you really going to sit there and try to claim that scoring empty net goal requires anywhere near close to the same level of difficultly as scoring against an NHL caliber goalie in net? Only someone who doesn't know the first thing about hockey would think that.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You are completely missing the point. The point isn't about weather or not those goals are important - It's about the skill level require to score them. We are judging players by their skill level here NOT THEIR VALUE.

Do you watch hockey at all?? Are you really going to sit there and try to claim that scoring empty net goal requires anywhere near close to the same level of difficultly as scoring against an NHL caliber goalie in net? Only someone who doesn't know the first thing about hockey would think that.

You’re basing “skill level” on 10 empty net goals….let that sink in. It’s not only ridiculous, but probably your worst take. Like I said, how dare they put out the best goal scorer of this generation and arguably of all time, out there to protect a lead…and to score goals….you want to claim I don’t know hockey? Pathetic.

Ah yes the good ‘ol “you clearly don’t watch hockey” line. Yes I watch hockey, I just don’t care for extremely bad and bias takes like yours.

It’s not only a minuscule amount, but the “context” you’re so desperately trying to form is just plain sad. You have no argument, just a want and need to trash Ovi. Go be a hater somewhere else, because like others have pointed out. Your opinions are garbage.

 

[frisco]

Malkin led the league in scoring in the regular season and then had arguably the best playoff run of the century while winning the Smythe and the Cup. And people are arguing there was someone better? Not that year.

My Best-Carey

 

[GreatGonzo]

Malkin led the league in scoring in the regular season and then had arguably the best playoff run of the century while winning the Smythe and the Cup. And people are arguing there was someone better? Not that year.

My Best-Carey

I will say, it is interesting how inconsistent the voting has been in terms of what to value when comparing regular season and playoffs. Sakic, MSL, and Lidstrom all had great regular seasons and playoffs, but we’re voted second to players that were argued as better.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

You are completely missing the point. The point isn't about weather or not those goals are important - It's about the skill level require to score them. We are judging players by their skill level here NOT THEIR VALUE.

Do you watch hockey at all?? Are you really going to sit there and try to claim that scoring empty net goal requires anywhere near close to the same level of difficultly as scoring against an NHL caliber goalie in net? Only someone who doesn't know the first thing about hockey would think that.

It always seemed weird to me that people seem to judge a player on their accomplishments/value than their ability as a player. Maybe it's easier for people to compartmentalize but it's always been uninteresting to me and honestly not that important.