Speculation: Benning 2.0? Not! Well a Little Maybe?

[Strangelove]

Jim Benning was the worst GM in the history of mankind.

Patrik Allvin is fair to middling.

 

[Paulinbc]

While I will always support the team, including whoever is in the GM seat, if we were to compare the two, they aren't in the same league. That said, JB was far from the worst GM in the league. he wasn't even the worst GM on the team. some of you have short memories and have blocked out the 70s and 80s. There is, however, some value in looking at PA's moves to date with a critical eye.

Harmonic for a third was pretty good value, and he drafted well from that spot. (EP2)
Third for Dermott... Dermott's a walking injury but has since done well with Arizona
Motte for a 4th... probably could have got more value
Dickinson and a 2nd for Stillman... got crushed on this deal
Dipietro & Myrenburg for Studnica... Dipi doing well in the A and Myrenburg a developing resource in exchange for nothing.
5th for Bear & Peterson... not bad, worth it for Bear alone, too bad we couldn't have kept him
Horvat for Beauvilier, Raty and a first... only Raty remains in the system
Lockwood for Kravtsov... kind of a wash
Stillman for Bloom... Looking good
Schenn for a 3rd... might have got a 2nd, but regardless it looks like we dealt him at his peak
1st & 2nd for Hronek & 4th... looking great so far
Lazar for a 4th... Lazar had a good year in Jersey this year
Kalynuk for futures...
Pearson & 3rd for Desmith... I wanted Silovs as backup after his performance last year - perhaps could have gotten better value for those assets
5th for Lafferty.... looked great at the beginning, but Sam trailed off halfway through the year
Rathbone & Plasek for Friedman & Glover... I'd rather have 'boner
Beauvillier for 5th... horrible deal
5th & 3rd for Zaddy... seemed decent at the time but turned into great value. Not worth 6x6
Studnicka for Cicek & 6th... looks like Cicek had a good year, but lost value in the Studnicka experiment
Kuzy, Jurmo, Bryz, 1st, 4th for Lindholm... yes it turned out poorly but teams make crazy deals for rentals every year (which I'm never a fan of). Much rather keep Bryz

OEL buyout... Sure the trade was bad turned out he did just fine in Florida. With a little patience, he could have had a good year for us.

I think he's done quite well but certainly not perfect. Were trading away draft picks again which I'm not particularly happy with either...

 

[Hammer79]

Guentzel at the TDL, ya, go for it but not for 7 years. As a rental it could have been taking a small chance but for 7 years? 7 years is almost a guarantee for big problems on the horizon.

I wonder if a trade by the Canucks, if a fan favourite, is announced just before the Stanley cup game. So it is kind of smothered by the cup game attention.

Certainly IF there is another buyout it has to come within 48 hours of the game ending.

I think most of the FA's will be signed right after the cup final and before the draft. They will have the general idea of FA's available from other team's buyouts and not signing FA's early.

Just how much does the team need to change? If not for the collapse of Pettersson and Boeser's scoring how bad were they? Boeser picked it up in the playoffs playing probably the best games of his career but that last half of the season, not so great. In truth IMO losing Garland would be as bad due to the "CHEMISTRY" that line developed.

Name all the possible saviors at any cost but is it that necessary to max out the cap 2 months before the puck drops again?

Trades happen and Rutherford/Allvin with Tocchet will have an eye out already for cost effective players that fit Tocchet's system.

What does Tocchet want? Well he hasn't tried to hide his types or even those he named. He wants BIG defencemen, he really liked Myers and Zadorov, he liked Joshua.

Do fans think Tocchet's "wants" will be ignored? Myers and Zadorov have already been reported willing to take less than market value to stay so that might mean longer terms. Joshua might be different because it will be his BIG payday of his career.

The fan favourite Rutherford hinted that might be traded has to be a signed core player. Boeser whose contract will be quite big next year if here, they would get the most out of him with one more year on the books. Pettersson? He is locked up for 8 years something that increased his value considerably. Trading a RFA doesn't get as much as a contracted player. Maybe that Necas deal is still out there. Rumors at that time of year are not for short term improvement, that rumour was a "hockey" trade rumour. Any deals now are "hockey" trades. Personally I think there is a very good chance his name comes up in talks.

There are some short term signings with some teams that could be trade partners, Chinakhov at 2.2 mil would fit on any team but the Canucks might have an asset or two they might need.

If we run it back without another top 6 forward, expect a Canucks team that struggles to score in the playoffs. We just spent 11.5m on Petey, get him someone to pass the puck to. Guys like Toffoli are plan B, plan A needs to be Guentzel or another point-per-game winger in a trade. With a 7 year deal, you accept that the last 2 years might stink, but we are paying for our window with Hughes, EP, Miller, Hronik Brock and Demko. If we get 5 solid years out of Guentzel, I'm happy.

 

[theguardianII]

If we run it back without another top 6 forward, expect a Canucks team that struggles to score in the playoffs. We just spent 11.5m on Petey, get him someone to pass the puck to. Guys like Toffoli are plan B, plan A needs to be Guentzel or another point-per-game winger in a trade. With a 7 year deal, you accept that the last 2 years might stink, but we are paying for our window with Hughes, EP, Miller, Hronik Brock and Demko. If we get 5 solid years out of Guentzel, I'm happy.

Of course there is the "IF" which can go either way and has a much better chance of the negative side as time goes on.

Tochett didn't like Kuzmenko but he worked very well with Pettersson, so why make an exception now? Why strangle the team's cap space just to find a 30 goal scorer?

Plan B can be anything, the fanbase is only seeing what they are told to see. There can and will be many more players available for trades or left off rosters yet.

If it is such a big panic to platicate Pettersson then why not go big after Stamkos, say 12 mil for two seasons. Tampa can't afford that and Stamkos has much better numbers than Guentzel. Stamkos is a player that when others play with him they get improved stats not like Guentzel who has played with Malkin and Crosby his whole career.

Besides it's rumoured that Carolina's offer is something like 8 years at 8.5 - 9 mil, over 68 - 72 mil, that would mean the Canucks would have to offer well over 10 million to be equal because of the tax differences. And then there is the thought, possibility that maybe Guentzel doesn't want to play on the coast with all the added travel. Also I am sure Miller feels just peachy about that looking at his 8 mil.
JUST SO PETEY HAS A PLAYMATE.
Then they can let Zadorov, Myers, Joshua all walk so they can find guys that aren't as good for less money. Friedman and Juulsen as the 3/4 defence pairing YA!

I think Stamkos is a better shot to sign here. He is still faster than Boeser too. A better fit too because Kucherov and Pettersson's style of play are much more similar than Crosby and Malkins who are much more physical.

 

[beachcomber]

Stamkos would never sign here. From Florida to rain soaked Vancouver? And for what exactly? Not a shot at a cup.

 

[VanJack]

Canucks now have three guys signed to big ticket, long term contracts--Miller, Pettersson and now Hronek. And up next is a long-term extension for Hughes.

So even with the salary cap going up, the Canucks have to be extremely reticent about handing out another long-term deal to an impending UFA like Guentzel. If they do, there's a risk they become the 'Toronto Maple Leafs West'.

Big time overpaid talent at the top of the lineup--and a flotsam and jetsam roster of budget priced UFA's or AHL-NHL 'tweeners at the bottom of the roster.

. At the end of the day, teams win with balanced lineups. You need production out of your third and fourth lines and depth d-men to make a serious Cup run.

 

[theguardianII]

Stamkos would never sign here. From Florida to rain soaked Vancouver? And for what exactly? Not a shot at a cup.

Do you think they live here year round? For Stamkos it is actually a tax break from Canadian taxes if his residence is in Florida.

Rain soaked, ya I like trying to keep up that reputation that sunshine is measured in gallons (rain water).

But since the Olympics the cat's out of the bag. February and not enough snow for events without shipping it in.

Besides when you live in a place where the rain is sideways and the breezes have names a quiet little place with a tolerable climate is a nice change.

Who knows playing with Pettersson maybe they both get over 100 points, I mean it is all about getting a playmate for Pettersson at the cost of defencemen right?

Vancouver has numerous ex NHLers living here, Kelowna, Kamloops, Okanogan. Besides for 10 - 12 million a fresh city might be a buck list thing. They might have a chance at a cup with the same lineup with Stamkos instead of Lindholm and Pettersson playing like he wants to be here. Game 7 of the second round, one or two more goals from EP, Hronek, QH, Miller and a healthy Demko and round three. Maybe with that defence they were close enough. Stamkos for two years or even one is better than Guentzel in year 7 of his contract with no guarantee he can play with EP. Stamkos on the other hand plays/played with everyone. Year two maybe even a trade back to Tampa at the TDL so he finishes his career there or another chance at another cup with them then. But off the books with an automatic 15 to 17 million in cap space.


Maybe they trade for Crosby eh?

 

[MarkMM]

While I will always support the team, including whoever is in the GM seat, if we were to compare the two, they aren't in the same league. That said, JB was far from the worst GM in the league. he wasn't even the worst GM on the team. some of you have short memories and have blocked out the 70s and 80s. There is, however, some value in looking at PA's moves to date with a critical eye.

Harmonic for a third was pretty good value, and he drafted well from that spot. (EP2)
Third for Dermott... Dermott's a walking injury but has since done well with Arizona
Motte for a 4th... probably could have got more value
Dickinson and a 2nd for Stillman... got crushed on this deal
Dipietro & Myrenburg for Studnica... Dipi doing well in the A and Myrenburg a developing resource in exchange for nothing.
5th for Bear & Peterson... not bad, worth it for Bear alone, too bad we couldn't have kept him
Horvat for Beauvilier, Raty and a first... only Raty remains in the system
Lockwood for Kravtsov... kind of a wash
Stillman for Bloom... Looking good
Schenn for a 3rd... might have got a 2nd, but regardless it looks like we dealt him at his peak
1st & 2nd for Hronek & 4th... looking great so far
Lazar for a 4th... Lazar had a good year in Jersey this year
Kalynuk for futures...
Pearson & 3rd for Desmith... I wanted Silovs as backup after his performance last year - perhaps could have gotten better value for those assets
5th for Lafferty.... looked great at the beginning, but Sam trailed off halfway through the year
Rathbone & Plasek for Friedman & Glover... I'd rather have 'boner
Beauvillier for 5th... horrible deal
5th & 3rd for Zaddy... seemed decent at the time but turned into great value. Not worth 6x6
Studnicka for Cicek & 6th... looks like Cicek had a good year, but lost value in the Studnicka experiment
Kuzy, Jurmo, Bryz, 1st, 4th for Lindholm... yes it turned out poorly but teams make crazy deals for rentals every year (which I'm never a fan of). Much rather keep Bryz

OEL buyout... Sure the trade was bad turned out he did just fine in Florida. With a little patience, he could have had a good year for us.

I think he's done quite well but certainly not perfect. Were trading away draft picks again which I'm not particularly happy with either...

What was wrong with the Beauvillier deal?

 

[HairyKneel]

Yikes.... could someone give me the Gettysburg address in crib notes? That might be the longest winded rant I've ever seen.

 

[theguardianII]

Yikes.... could someone give me the Gettysburg address in crib notes? That might be the longest winded rant I've ever seen.

You haven't read many of my posts then. These long winded posts come from posters continually messaging they don't understand because the sponsored sports shows are saying something else. What the sponsors want fans to think. So I got sucked in and try to explain details that are ignored. This is not a video game.

Not many posters think beyond "now", like Benning did, "we don't know what will happen tomorrow" so don't bother thinking about it or planning for it.

But it is just a fantasy forum, entertainment while waiting to see what will happen, lot of guesses, some logic applied, even some remembering the past and learning from those mistakes.

This thread is simply about facts and the perception of those facts with how winning changes opinions.

 

[Ace of Hades]

OOooof, how to lose credibility in one post.

He already did with his anti Boeser smear campaign a while back.

 

[DS7]

Jim Benning was the worst GM in the history of mankind.

Patrik Allvin is fair to middling.

Chiarelli had cost controlled McDavid, Draisatl and prime Nuge/Hall/Eberle and he couldnt get it done. Still think he was worse.

And let's not forget Milbury

 

[Hit the post]

Chiarelli had cost controlled McDavid, Draisatl and prime Nuge/Hall/Eberle and he couldnt get it done. Still think he was worse.

And let's not forget Milbury

Fredo or Wacky Wang? Tough choice. I'll lean towards Wang as he 'earned his bones' at least. Frankie was born with a silver spoon up his ass.

OOooof, how to lose credibility in one post.

I've never had any credibility to lose.

 

[Strangelove]

Chiarelli had cost controlled McDavid, Draisatl and prime Nuge/Hall/Eberle and he couldnt get it done. Still think he was worse.

And let's not forget Milbury

*looks around at angry mob*

I wish I had your courage DS7.

 

[DS7]

*looks around at angry mob*

I wish I had your courage DS7.

Lol not much courage to state that. I hate the guy's work but there's some perspective I can admit.

I popped a bottle of bubbly when Benning got fired it's a milestone in the franchise. And this is coming from a place of pure loathing of what that JB did to our team. Despite that, I don't think he's the worst in history. Definitely in the bottom 3 of the cap era though.

 

[rypper]

What was wrong with the Beauvillier deal?

Nothing.

 

[TraderJim]

I'm often critical of reddit for its ability to stifle opinions and limit discussions.

Then I come across a thread like this and it makes me wonder if it isn't better just to downvote and ignore these types of analysis.

 

[Wisp]

Some people don't respond to avoid dignifying a post but I'll go a step further and refuse to dignify it by even reading it.

 

[RandV]

Yes, Jim Benning did a thing! Patrick Allvin has also done a thing! Therefore they must be the same!!!

It was a weird angle some people kept playing in the first season and a half of new management with the Canucks out of the playoffs. But to still do it after the successful season the team just had, with award nominations all over? Now it's just ridiculous.

I don't know but this always felt to me like some remnant of Benning bro's quietly trying to absolve Benning, trying to undercut the blackhole of ineptitude from 8 years of Benning by saying 'but are the new guys really that better?'

 

[theguardianII]

Yes, Jim Benning did a thing! Patrick Allvin has also done a thing! Therefore they must be the same!!!

It was a weird angle some people kept playing in the first season and a half of new management with the Canucks out of the playoffs. But to still do it after the successful season the team just had, with award nominations all over? Now it's just ridiculous.

I don't know but this always felt to me like some remnant of Benning bro's quietly trying to absolve Benning, trying to undercut the blackhole of ineptitude from 8 years of Benning by saying 'but are the new guys really that better?'

There is no way that Rutherford/Allvin have yet reached the ineptitude of Benning. In just about EVERY category he leads.
Amount of money spent, well over a BILLION dollars
Number of first round picks #1 to #15 blown, either traded away or just bad, if it wasn't for the known instance of Brackett the team would have had Glass instead of Pettersson, that cost Brackett his job.
Number of clause contracts.
Number of FA's of quality that he let walk away.
Most losses in a single GM's term.

With all that fear of a repeat it is worth a comparison.

And how winning changes the perceptions of good and bad.

 

[arttk]

While I will always support the team, including whoever is in the GM seat, if we were to compare the two, they aren't in the same league. That said, JB was far from the worst GM in the league. he wasn't even the worst GM on the team. some of you have short memories and have blocked out the 70s and 80s. There is, however, some value in looking at PA's moves to date with a critical eye.

Harmonic for a third was pretty good value, and he drafted well from that spot. (EP2)
Third for Dermott... Dermott's a walking injury but has since done well with Arizona
Motte for a 4th... probably could have got more value
Dickinson and a 2nd for Stillman... got crushed on this deal
Dipietro & Myrenburg for Studnica... Dipi doing well in the A and Myrenburg a developing resource in exchange for nothing.
5th for Bear & Peterson... not bad, worth it for Bear alone, too bad we couldn't have kept him
Horvat for Beauvilier, Raty and a first... only Raty remains in the system
Lockwood for Kravtsov... kind of a wash
Stillman for Bloom... Looking good
Schenn for a 3rd... might have got a 2nd, but regardless it looks like we dealt him at his peak
1st & 2nd for Hronek & 4th... looking great so far
Lazar for a 4th... Lazar had a good year in Jersey this year
Kalynuk for futures...
Pearson & 3rd for Desmith... I wanted Silovs as backup after his performance last year - perhaps could have gotten better value for those assets
5th for Lafferty.... looked great at the beginning, but Sam trailed off halfway through the year
Rathbone & Plasek for Friedman & Glover... I'd rather have 'boner
Beauvillier for 5th... horrible deal
5th & 3rd for Zaddy... seemed decent at the time but turned into great value. Not worth 6x6
Studnicka for Cicek & 6th... looks like Cicek had a good year, but lost value in the Studnicka experiment
Kuzy, Jurmo, Bryz, 1st, 4th for Lindholm... yes it turned out poorly but teams make crazy deals for rentals every year (which I'm never a fan of). Much rather keep Bryz

OEL buyout... Sure the trade was bad turned out he did just fine in Florida. With a little patience, he could have had a good year for us.

I think he's done quite well but certainly not perfect. Were trading away draft picks again which I'm not particularly happy with either...

Not sure the value in evaluating his moves 1 by 1. hiring Tocchet and rest of the coaching staff, making Hughes the captain and resetting the culture and then getting the whole group to buy into playing the right way are the most important things they have done so far. I think from this point onward, it’s about getting players that can raise the ceiling and then they can make like 10 moves and if only like 2 or 3 ends up doing that, that’s all it matters.

 

[rypper]

With all that fear of a repeat it is worth a comparison.

It's really not. There is no fear of a repeat. This mgmt group hasn't given one iota of similarity to the past group.

 

[theguardianII]

It's really not. There is no fear of a repeat. This mgmt group hasn't given one iota of similarity to the past group.

I hope you're right. Really do. Just after 8 years of Benning, all the promises, talk and media support.

Besides it an opinion thread, but the trades, draft picks used up, salaries, contracts and maybe FA's walking away. Forget who is making the items listed, just that they are made.

Again winning changes the perception, should they crap the bed the next few days and then the season next year.....

I do have faith they won't end up with the same results as Benning

 

[mathonwy]

*looks around at angry mob*

I wish I had your courage DS7.

lol.

Go for it Strange. Grow some balls and stand up for your boi Jimbo the worst GM in NHL history.

I'll grab some popcorn.

 

[Strangelove]

Jim Benning was the worst GM in the history of mankind.

Mathonwy, you cut me to the quick!

I have always considered Jimbro to be a lousy GM.