BCHL adding 5 Alberta teams

[Yukon Joe]

I really don't care about the should or should not or able to.

Are they legally allowed to, is going to be the question? Of course right now I don't know if anyone has this answer.

CHI was able to cancel Perry's contract, but doesn't mean there isn't future ramifications on them for doing so.

I mean fair enough, but I think the "should or should not" is the more interesting question.

I have not reviewed the by-laws of the AJHL, nor of Hockey Alberta, but fundamentally this is just a matter of scheduling games (the AJHL has said the rebel teams can play each other) and I find it highly unlikely that a court is going to interfere in scheduling hockey games.

Maybe, after a lengthy lawsuit, one side will have to pay damages to the other side. But a court, without the presence of a trial and the discovery process, would be hesitant to issue an injunction.

Perry's contract - Perry didn't grieve or challenge it, so there are no further repercussions for Chicago.

 

[MeHateHe]

BCHL can say whatever they want doesn't make it true.

There could still be a chance that one or all or none of the teams would change their mind too.

Fact is until the AJHL teams actually do something you really can't do much if you are the AJHL.

C'mon.

And for those who supported BCHL leaving HC, here is a great article, that only deals with facts. BCHL Facts Any Fan Can Easily Understand - Supplied By The BCHL

I would take this guy's commentary with a grain of salt. He has never said much of anything complimentary of the BCHL.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Great to see that there's talks about some of the Prairies combining together.

A great consolidation needs to happen. There is just no way the system can continue. Look at birth rates, sure Canada's population is growing via immigration, but how many children of immigrants are playing hockey, and elite-level hockey (not to sound snobby, but not the free try it out and drop-in stuff), look at the rising costs of hockey. Let's look at the numbers for 2023-24

CJHL Leauges:
AJHL - 16 teams
SJHL - 12 teams
MJHL - 13 teams
SIJHL - 8 teams
NOJHL - 12 teams
OJHL - 21 teams
CCHL - 12 teams
LHJQ - 13 teams
MHL - 12 teams

One breakaway League:
BCHL - 17 teams

Total of 136 Junior A Hockey teams in Canada, which sit below 60 teams in the CHL.

I just don't see how there is a need, or how that will remain economically viable and you'll have enough players to feed into that sort of number in 20 years, without radically hurting the quality of play. Most of those players are already going to be extremely dead-end, and that will only excaberate the longer it remains as such. If you consolidate these Leagues down, you can keep the more financially viable teams operating, enhance it with them going up against each other more and raise the level of play to only the players that by current standards aren't in such a dead-end situation so that it's a more viable path for kids fro whom it is worth it to keep going and have a potential college/pro future.

Now, the trick of course, is to do a consolidation in a way that will not drastically increase travel costs. This is the big impetus for heavily-regionalized Junior A Hockey to begin with. This can be accomplished through heavily divisional-based schedules. One thing is for sure, Hockey Canada cannot sit around and keep thinking it's the 80s and throwing little temper tantrums when there's any kind of pushback or attempt to innovate.

 

[joestevens29]

I mean fair enough, but I think the "should or should not" is the more interesting question.

I have not reviewed the by-laws of the AJHL, nor of Hockey Alberta, but fundamentally this is just a matter of scheduling games (the AJHL has said the rebel teams can play each other) and I find it highly unlikely that a court is going to interfere in scheduling hockey games.

Maybe, after a lengthy lawsuit, one side will have to pay damages to the other side. But a court, without the presence of a trial and the discovery process, would be hesitant to issue an injunction.

Perry's contract - Perry didn't grieve or challenge it, so there are no further repercussions for Chicago.

They still have til end of July to grieve it. Doesn't sound like Perry himself cares, but the PA has concerns

As for the rest I agree. It does seem like such a waste too me overall. Hard to blame the players and the fans that are now suffering because of this.

 

[joestevens29]

Great to see that there's talks about some of the Prairies combining together.

A great consolidation needs to happen. There is just no way the system can continue. Look at birth rates, sure Canada's population is growing via immigration, but how many children of immigrants are playing hockey, and elite-level hockey (not to sound snobby, but not the free try it out and drop-in stuff), look at the rising costs of hockey. Let's look at the numbers for 2023-24

CJHL Leauges:
AJHL - 16 teams
SJHL - 12 teams
MJHL - 13 teams
SIJHL - 8 teams
NOJHL - 12 teams
OJHL - 21 teams
CCHL - 12 teams
LHJQ - 13 teams
MHL - 12 teams

One breakaway League:
BCHL - 17 teams

Total of 136 Junior A Hockey teams in Canada, which sit below 60 teams in the CHL.

I just don't see how there is a need, or how that will remain economically viable and you'll have enough players to feed into that sort of number in 20 years, without radically hurting the quality of play. Most of those players are already going to be extremely dead-end, and that will only excaberate the longer it remains as such. If you consolidate these Leagues down, you can keep the more financially viable teams operating, enhance it with them going up against each other more and raise the level of play to only the players that by current standards aren't in such a dead-end situation so that it's a more viable path for kids fro whom it is worth it to keep going and have a potential college/pro future.

Now, the trick of course, is to do a consolidation in a way that will not drastically increase travel costs. This is the big impetus for heavily-regionalized Junior A Hockey to begin with. This can be accomplished through heavily divisional-based schedules. One thing is for sure, Hockey Canada cannot sit around and keep thinking it's the 80s and throwing little temper tantrums when there's any kind of pushback or attempt to innovate.

Feeding the system I don't think is an issue. Feeding the system with quality players will be the issue. Could result in other lower level leagues folding, but I think there is always going to be that Junior A hockey just not to the way we might be use to.

I do agree though there needs to be some thought into trying to provide a solid feasible league

 

[landy92mack29]

The 5 teams are leaving but it wasn't supposed to be announced until May 1st....the BCHL just wanted to make a splash to feed their ego

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I get what you're saying, but nothing fundamentally changes from the sounds of it, though. I guess they are moving in the opposite direction you'd like, but the changes are pretty incremental. As before there will still be some players moving long distances to play junior A. That happens now, though.

I guess travel distances will increase but again, only marginally as the BCHL will still be BC-heavy. I guess the Alberta team players will have some more bus riding to do, but it will be far less than what they'd have to put up with in the WHL.

Interestingly, Manitoba has its own "outlaw" junior league that was brought into the Hockey Canada fold years ago. The little-known Manitoba Major Junior Hockey League (MMJHL, the 'major junior' comes from its adoption of major junior overager rules at the time) is a league that plays exclusively in and around Winnipeg. It is specifically designed to allow players who are students or who are working to play competitive hockey too, it provided an alternative to players at a time when the MJHL and the local Jr. B league involved lengthy bus trips across rural Manitoba. From what I have heard the MMJHL is considered a strong jr. B league.

I wonder if this type of arrangement might become more popular in Alberta and BC, i.e. if you're not on the NCAA track why bother sitting on a bus for X hours to play a game in Prince George or whatever when you can just play all your games in the Lower Mainland?

Yeah, I was just at an MMJHL game the other day - I work in the Steinbach area, so I get to see a lot of lower-level hockey.

MMJHL is an interesting league for sure - Jr. B drama in Manitoba has yet to really settle since the CRJHL became a thing, but the MM seems to be doing its own thing.

I'm a huge stan for the HTJHL - the last Jr. C league in MB - for similar reasons that you cite for the MM and there's lots of local kids playing in front of local crowds. The death of Senior hockey has been really tough to watch, so it's fun to see a more local-focused product.

 

[MeHateHe]

I don't think a Winnipeg junior A team would ever match Flin Flon when it comes to popularity, but maybe if this PJHL thing happens and a bit of effort is put into the franchise, it could get back to the level that the Winnipeg teams were at in the 1980s.

This speaks to what I was saying earlier. Teams in communities have to play a tricky dance of having high level hockey while still having a connection to the community. The Bombers are deeply connected to Flin Flon because they represent the community to the world, but if their entire roster came from - for an outlandish example - New Zealand, and they no longer had a Bomber feel** to the team, that connection is diminished. A Junior A team in Winnipeg is never going to rely on connection to the team, because they already associate themselves to the Jets.

So the question is how much of that connection can a Junior club in a smaller community let slip away in pursuit of higher level hockey? In my home town in Alberta, our senior team in the late 70s and early 80s always used to sign a couple of guys late in the year to bolster their playoff run. Fans put up with a little of it, but it wouldn't have been our team if the whole roster was suddenly made up of guys from Hay River (no joke, it's where players arrived from - gotta love senior hockey).

I don't know what the answer is and where the sweet spot is, but it has to be a consideration. I think it's not a good look for a BC Hockey League to have 19 of its top 20 scorers from outside of BC. They might fancy themselves an elite league, but the letters "BC" have to mean something other than geography.

**Unrelated but related. I remember my first experience with the Saskatchewen Junior league in the 90s, when Norm Johnston was the coach, and the word around the league was in Flin Flon, the only thing the fans hated more than players losing fights was players who wouldn't fight. Flin Flon is a unique place.

 

[jetsmooseice]

This speaks to what I was saying earlier. Teams in communities have to play a tricky dance of having high level hockey while still having a connection to the community. The Bombers are deeply connected to Flin Flon because they represent the community to the world, but if their entire roster came from - for an outlandish example - New Zealand, and they no longer had a Bomber feel** to the team, that connection is diminished. A Junior A team in Winnipeg is never going to rely on connection to the team, because they already associate themselves to the Jets.

So the question is how much of that connection can a Junior club in a smaller community let slip away in pursuit of higher level hockey? In my home town in Alberta, our senior team in the late 70s and early 80s always used to sign a couple of guys late in the year to bolster their playoff run. Fans put up with a little of it, but it wouldn't have been our team if the whole roster was suddenly made up of guys from Hay River (no joke, it's where players arrived from - gotta love senior hockey).

I don't know what the answer is and where the sweet spot is, but it has to be a consideration. I think it's not a good look for a BC Hockey League to have 19 of its top 20 scorers from outside of BC. They might fancy themselves an elite league, but the letters "BC" have to mean something other than geography.

**Unrelated but related. I remember my first experience with the Saskatchewen Junior league in the 90s, when Norm Johnston was the coach, and the word around the league was in Flin Flon, the only thing the fans hated more than players losing fights was players who wouldn't fight. Flin Flon is a unique place.

I wonder how much local content really matters? Scanning some MJHL rosters, it's clear that most teams have few, if any local players. Many MJ rosters look like a WHL roster in terms of where the players are coming from - it's actually amazing how many kids are coming from far away to play in the MJ. Ironically enough, it's probably only the Winnipeg teams that have strong representation from their local area. But that does not translate into any community support for them.

It's great when you have the hometown star like Messier with the Oilers, Tavares with the Leafs, or whatever. But I think at the end of the day it's about having the best possible team at the highest possible level. Would the people in Steinbach trade their lineup of kids from all over North America for a bunch of players from Steinbach knowing that they'd likely end up near the bottom of the standings? Unlikely.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Yeah, I was just at an MMJHL game the other day - I work in the Steinbach area, so I get to see a lot of lower-level hockey.

MMJHL is an interesting league for sure - Jr. B drama in Manitoba has yet to really settle since the CRJHL became a thing, but the MM seems to be doing its own thing.

I'm a huge stan for the HTJHL - the last Jr. C league in MB - for similar reasons that you cite for the MM and there's lots of local kids playing in front of local crowds. The death of Senior hockey has been really tough to watch, so it's fun to see a more local-focused product.

I've noticed that hockey people on the internet love to dump on jr B and jr C hockey but it seems unfounded to me. They act like these kids delusionally think they're going to go pro but I don't buy that. I don't get why you have to stop playing competitive hockey just because you didn't make the dub or jr. A. There's just as much sense in playing close to home in the MMJHL or HTJHL and continuing with work and school than there is in being a depth player on a WHL team and spending half your life on the bus when either way it's likely the end of the line for your hockey career.

 

[MeHateHe]

I wonder how much local content really matters? Scanning some MJHL rosters, it's clear that most teams have few, if any local players

Maybe if they put some effort into local players on a regular basis, they might better bridge the gap with their communities and start attracting more fans.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Maybe if they put some effort into local players on a regular basis, they might better bridge the gap with their communities and start attracting more fans.

Will they? It doesn't seem to be hurting the BCHL all that much.... e.g. the Penticton Vees only have one local on the team.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I'm perfectly fine with the way Jr. A is working in MB right now. Sure there are improvements to be made all over the place (Figuring out how to make the WPG teams a draw, improving game broadcast quality - I know the league is working on that one - are the first two that come to mind), but I'm perfectly fine with the current league structure.

No need for a prairie super-league IMO. Would just increase overall costs for no real benefit to the teams.

 

[PCSPounder]

Ummmm… has anyone been watching the NCAA lately?

You have big conferences looking to grow their football brand, women’s sports are really growing, but schools outside the big programs are getting DE-funded because media companies don’t want to pay all of them anymore.

So when you characterize college hockey as growing, I question that, more because the core of that operation is under a bigger threat. Worse, if the big schools bolt the NCAA, then what?

On the other hand, with NIL, IF they hold together, does the NCAA still have a legal basis to restrict CHL vets from joining?

Didn’t the BCHL become pay-to-play to some degree?

 

[MeHateHe]

Will they? It doesn't seem to be hurting the BCHL all that much.... e.g. the Penticton Vees only have one local on the team.

Yeah, I don’t know. I will say that junior hockey teams across Canada have been focussing less and less on those connection pieces and they’re playing in front of a lot of empty seats. Emotional connections are really strong and you need to find new ways to establish those emotional connection. I’m not saying local players are required, but I do suspect developing a local pipeline long-term is a good way of solidifying that emotional connection.

 

[Bubbles]

Will they? It doesn't seem to be hurting the BCHL all that much.... e.g. the Penticton Vees only have one local on the team.

Exactly. The BCHL wants to have a more competitive league. The local connection is not the reason why junior hockey attendance is dropping at all levels, it's that the internet has provided entertainment options that small towns never had before. Also, hockey as a sport will always be the no. 1 sport, but in the cities especially soccer and basketball are quickly taking over.

I'm curious to see any Ontario junior hockey watchers on here and see what they think of guys like Power and Fantilli leaving the province to go the USHL. Would they have rather seen them go to another province?

At least the BCHL has held on to it's top BC born talent, when it comes to NCAA bound kids. Turris, Wood and Johnson all stayed in the BCHL. Even Brooks was able to keep Makar in Alberta.

 

[Corso]

I'm curious to see any Ontario junior hockey watchers on here and see what they think of guys like Power and Fantilli leaving the province to go the USHL. Would they have rather seen them go to another province?

At least the BCHL has held on to it's top BC born talent, when it comes to NCAA bound kids. Turris, Wood and Johnson all stayed in the BCHL. Even Brooks was able to keep Makar in Alberta.

I really believe that the route Power and Fantilli took was the primary spark that ignited the feud with Hockey Canada. The BCHL, rightly asked, why was it that high end U17 players, could be given transfer cards to play in the U.S. domestic junior leagues but not be granted the same opportunities within Canada.

It was a question the H.C. refused to answer. Meanwhile Power and Fantilli generated a ton of hype for the the USHL within Canada. The move away from H.C. and now the adding of the best AJHL team to form a super conference is a way for the BCHL to wrest dominance away from the USHL, especially for the top Canadian talent who want to play NCAA.

 

[Tilden Katz]

Re: the discussion of contraction of Junior A in Canada, the Yorkton Terriers of the SJ finances are "dire" in their own words.

Worth noting that Yorkton is around 16k people in size. It would be one of the largest markets in the SJ, behind only North Battleford. It's comparable in size to Swift Current in the W.

Yorkton Terriers seek help amidst 'dire' financial situation

 

[Giant Panda]

Re: the discussion of contraction of Junior A in Canada, the Yorkton Terriers of the SJ finances are "dire" in their own words.

Worth noting that Yorkton is around 16k people in size. It would be one of the largest markets in the SJ, behind only North Battleford. It's comparable in size to Swift Current in the W.

Yorkton Terriers seek help amidst 'dire' financial situation

SJHL 2022-23 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Attendance for the Saskatchewan Junior Hockey League for the 2022-23 season

www.hockeydb.com

It's also only 5th worse in attendance.

How Notre Dame has a team is still a miracle to me.

There's about 4-5 teams in both the SJ and MJ that are close to folding, the AJ will likely see a few teams fold too.

Merging leagues or pay to play models are the only options.

 

[oldunclehue]

So this is a total aside - but I used to live in Flin Flon back in the 90s - which is under an hour away from The Pas, which is right next to OCN (Opaskwayak Cree Nation, a first nations reserve, for those that don't know Manitoba).

Back then I thought that the OCN Blizzard were a total powerhouse in the MJHL?

It's always funny though how the big city Junior A teams struggle, while in smaller markets they seem to thrive. Heck I also used to live in St Paul, AB and the Junior B Canadiens were the talk of the town despite Junior B hockey being nothing special.

OCN was a huge powerhouse for a decade or so, but the band was giving them a huge budget of Casino money. Players were getting thousands a month to play.

About 18 years ago a new Chief and Council stopped the millions going and they have a regular budget. But now the team is not reserved owned it was sold to a couple local businessmen and they moved the team to the rink in The Pas. The rink in not a junior A facility and the team likely wouldn’t be a candidate for a big league change.

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

The future of North American hockey requires an adaptation of the European system.

Clubs which are structured from beginners to the senior section and players who move from one age category to another depending on the choice of the coaches without changing team.

Example :

Quebec Remparts has a senior, junior, midget, bantam, pee-wee and atom team.

The repulsive aspect of the CHL is that the player is obliged to play until the age of 20 in a junior league without choosing where to live. No wonder you prefer to play in the NCAA (hopeful league). Now BCHL will be a more attractive alternative.

And then a league like ECHL and even AHL is far too expensive compared to what it brings in. Develop consistent, more regionalized professional championships (WHL, OHL, LHMQ and 3 American pro leagues) to limit travel.

It would also make it possible to shift the NHL draft eligibility age to 20 years old. Spending 2 years in a senior WHL wouldn't have hurt Bedard. Regional leagues would capture interest as well.

Would agree with your premise except for two factors.

If the European model were the correct one, why are many of the top end players from Europe headed to Canadian junior or American prep schools?

The second concern with a European model is the inequities between the respective clubs. In Finland for example, many bigger clubs can pay transfer fees to obtain the top players from smaller clubs. Haves and have not make it a lot less likely for players to consistently compete at a high level. (Admittedly this is a problem in North America with an overabundance of "elite" programs).

 

[Giant Panda]

OCN was a huge powerhouse for a decade or so, but the band was giving them a huge budget of Casino money. Players were getting thousands a month to play.

About 18 years ago a new Chief and Council stopped the millions going and they have a regular budget. But now the team is not reserved owned it was sold to a couple local businessmen and they moved the team to the rink in The Pas. The rink in not a junior A facility and the team likely wouldn’t be a candidate for a big league change.

Not saying we didn't get money but thousands per month is definitely a bit of an exaggeration. It was nice to get but it was a lot less than we would've been making had we been working jobs at that point, it felt more like an allowance than a payment.

It sucks seeing the Blizzard decline so much.

 

[jetsmooseice]

OCN was a huge powerhouse for a decade or so, but the band was giving them a huge budget of Casino money. Players were getting thousands a month to play.

About 18 years ago a new Chief and Council stopped the millions going and they have a regular budget. But now the team is not reserved owned it was sold to a couple local businessmen and they moved the team to the rink in The Pas. The rink in not a junior A facility and the team likely wouldn’t be a candidate for a big league change.

Like I said before, the hypothetical Manitoba division of a PJHL would look something like this: Virden, Dauphin, Steinbach, Winkler, Portage, Niverville and the Winnipeg Blues (Blues more so for the Winnipeg presence than anything else). Selkirk is a maybe, they have the ability to step up but I'm not sure the desire is there, Selkirk's support is super soft these days.

So what happens to the other teams? As passionate as Neepawa, The Pas, Swan Valley, etc. all are, these tiny communities with old, run down rinks can't really compete at a higher level. So what do they do? Drop down to jr. B? That could reinvigorate jr. B hockey in Manitoba if they did.

 

[MeHateHe]

So at best the BCHL jumped the gun - the story I'm seeing is that someone on the inside was going to leak it so the league decided to push it out there - and at worst the BCHL is making something up.

No matter what, this is a bad look from a business standpoint to shove your new partners under the bus in this way.

 

[Yukon Joe]

View attachment 812515
So at best the BCHL jumped the gun - the story I'm seeing is that someone on the inside was going to leak it so the league decided to push it out there - and at worst the BCHL is making something up.

No matter what, this is a bad look from a business standpoint to shove your new partners under the bus in this way.

I don't think there's any way to look at this story and think the BCHL is "making it up". None of the 5 AJHL teams has rebutted the key proposition - that they intend to play in the BCHL next season.

That being said - the AJHL does come across as being kind of sanctimonious here. Talks about "unsanctioned hockey" (like Hockey Canada has some magic wand to wave over sanctioned games) or the negative impact on players (isn't that being caused by the AJHL suspending games?).

This is one of those stories where neither side comes across very well.