Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes

[MountainHawk]

I glad to see that we can slander other's on HFboards, but if we say anything even remotely critical about another poster, out comes the hammer.

The RIM patent dispute was insanity (and the patent office is still in the process of rejecting the trivial patents). The "accounting fraud" was solely related to employee stock options, which was a common move by lots of tech companies at the time. It is also fully resolved as well.

That doesn't make it any else accounting fraud. It was blatant fraud, backdating options for himself and the other executives so they knew they would be 'in the money at issue', but not have to report them as 'in the money at issue' options.

And if the patent calim was that bad, I doubt they pay $600M to settle the claims after a jury found them guilty of patent infringement.

 

[Egil]

By the way, according to a financing statement filed in Maricopa County, the security interest of the NHL DOES IN FACT EXTEND to "all assets of the debtor now owned or hereafter acquired". Assuming this language accurately reflects the terms of the Secured Loan Agreement, this would certainly extend to the most valuable asset of the team (the franchise agreement).

But like the NHL can't just walk in, revoke the franchise agreement and screw the other creditors, right? Revoking the franchise likely triggers bankruptcy from the other creditors (I would hope they protected themselves against that). So while this at least lets the NHL be in control of the bankruptcy, I don't see how that move gets them the full control they would want.

 

[BigMac1212]

So, the league rules are more like "the Pirate Code" aka guidelines in Pirates of the Caribean?

No wonder the league is in trouble...

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

but given they've had hockey for like 50 years, you'd look pretty dumb to claim 'hockey failed'

In what league? I can't find any info of Phoenix having an AHL team before the Coyotes arrived.

 

[rj]

It's not as though the rest of the owners of the remaining NHL teams are saints - many are just corporations (such as MLSE) run by directors and officers who have no other obligation other than to maximize revenue. Wouldn't you rather have an owner that actually cares about the team's on-ice success instead of just their balance sheet (a la the past 30 years of the Hawks and Bruins until recently)?

Which is why most sports team owners hate Mark Cuban.

 

[BigMac1212]

In what league? I can't find any info of Phoenix having an AHL team before the Coyotes arrived.

There was the original Interantional Hockey League (IHL).

 

[Quicktimer]

So basically the Coyotes want this, NHL doesnt, right?

 

[GSC2k2*]

Is it feasible that the league could go before the Court as the Senior Creditor and (you alluded to withdrawing the petition as one possibility) simply tell the judge "no thanks" on this deal, the league will maintain its senior position and guarantee the loans of the junior lenders, and simply take over the team? Losses were reported $20M-$30M a year, which the league could conceivably underwrite until another buyer is found or solution worked out.

Yes. I stated this in an earlier post, although this thread is filling up so quickly with non-substantive "yay Jim!!!!!11zomgomg" posts that my points quickly get off the active page.

I imagine that is exactly what their submissions to the court will be on Thursday, sprinkled with submissions to the effect that Mr. Moyes was not an authorized agent of the team permitted to make the filing.

$20-30 million is not much to protect a several hundred million dollar asset in the southern Ontario market.

In my ongoing effort of throwing out food for thought, here is something more for the laypeople who think it is a fait accomplit:

If JB is successful, and he moved the team to southern Ontario, what protection would he have against the league plunking another franchise right across the street from him?

Or two?

The answer: nothing.

Here is another little nugget to chew on: for all this pent-up demand in the GTA, does anyone know how many names are on the waiting list for Leafs tickets? [and yes, contrary to longstanding wisdom, the waiting list is open for anyone who want to get on it.]

I know how long it is, and it is much shorter than people think.

 

[Egil]

And if the patent calim was that bad, I doubt they pay $600M to settle the claims after a jury found them guilty of patent infringement.

The Judge granted an injuction forcing RIM to shut down the Blackberry servers. They had to pay or destroy their company. At the time of the original trial, the Patent office hadn't re-examined the patents, so at the time they were in good standing. At the time of the settlement and injuction, the patent office was merely in the process of voiding the patents. Many folks understand that the RIM case showed serious problems in the US patent system. (mod edit)

 

[Lard_Lad]

In what league? I can't find any info of Phoenix having an AHL team before the Coyotes arrived.

Western League team from the late 60's, WHA for three seasons, IHL for the better part of a decade.

 

[MountainHawk]

In what league? I can't find any info of Phoenix having an AHL team before the Coyotes arrived.

Central Hockey League, Pacific Hockey League, International Hockey League, Western Hockey League/World Hockey Association, and the ECHL most recently.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

In what league? I can't find any info of Phoenix having an AHL team before the Coyotes arrived.

he's thinking of the Road Runners, who just collapsed due to a lost lease @ AWA in the ECHL, they had been in the original I

Mountain:

the Coyotes never owned an AHL Franchise whether it was in Springfield, Utah, OR San Antonio

 

[Egil]

Yes. I stated this in an earlier post, although this thread is filling up so quickly with non-substantive "yay Jim!!!!!11zomgomg" posts that my points quickly get off the active page.

I imagine that is exactly what their submissions to the court will be on Thursday, sprinkled with submissions to the effect that Mr. Moyes was not an authorized agent of the team permitted to make the filing.

$20-30 million is not much to protect a several hundred million dollar asset in the southern Ontario market.

In my ongoing effort of throwing out food for thought, here is something more for the laypeople who think it is a fait accomplit:

If JB is successful, and he moved the team to southern Ontario, what protection would he have against the league plunking another franchise right across the street from him?

Or two?

The answer: nothing.

Here is another little nugget to chew on: for all this pent-up demand in the GTA, does anyone know how many names are on the waiting list for Leafs tickets? [and yes, contrary to longstanding wisdom, the waiting list is open for anyone who want to get on it.]

I know how long it is, and it is much shorter than people think.

4000 people? The key though is that the renewal rate is north of 99%, and a black market exists for jumping the queue. So simply using the waiting list size to prove a point is misleading at best.

 

[guyincognito]

So, the league rules are more like "the Pirate Code" aka guidelines in Pirates of the Caribean?

No wonder the league is in trouble...

Now, I understand you're a fan and this absolutely came out of the blue today, and it's devastating news. I went through this crap 14 years ago and it actually ruined a Stanley Cup win, for me, to the point I really don't acknowledge it that much. The 2000 one was like the first to me.

Still, after like 100 of these posts, I gotta ask.... what's your plan here? What keeps the Coyotes in Phoenix at this point... and by pointing out the NHL, you're pointing out the wrong people. At least publicly, they're saying they have nothing to do with this...

 

[MountainHawk]

The Judge granted an injuction forcing RIM to shut down the Blackberry servers. They had to pay or destroy their company. At the time of the original trial, the Patent office hadn't re-examined the patents, so at the time they were in good standing. At the time of the settlement and injuction, the patent office was merely in the process of voiding the patents. Any informed person (which you clearly are not) on this case understands that the RIM case showed serious problems in the US patent system.

I understand the issues involved. Fact is, Balsillie was offered a licensing agreement, chose to ignore it and steal technology, and then got blackmailed somewhat.

Too bad, so sad. That still doesn't explain the accounting fraud where he stole millions of dollars from his shareholders.

 

[Enstrom39]

What with all the quick posts, I didn't see the posts above about the NHL's statement. It appears that Mr. Daly agrees with me about this possibility, at least.

GSC (or anyone else with some knowledege on this stuff) can you lay out the pros and cons of Chapter 11 versus NHL taking control of the franchise?

My guess is that under chapter 11 the creditors get the money for the sale of the team and perhaps with NHL taking over--perhaps the NHL might be back more of the money they're putting into the Coyotes. I could be totally wrong--hence the question.

 

[GSC2k2*]

4000 people? The key though is that the renewal rate is north of 99%, and a black market exists for jumping the queue. So simply using the waiting list size to prove a point is misleading at best.

2500.

The question is never the number of people who would like tickets. It is the number of people who would like tickets and have the wherewithal to pay for same, which we both know is a hugely smaller number.

 

[berklon]

4000 people? The key though is that the renewal rate is north of 99%, and a black market exists for jumping the queue. So simply using the waiting list size to prove a point is misleading at best.

Exactly. Plus you have to consider how many people didn't even bother putting their name on the list since it's pointless as they'll never get season tickets. I know many who want and can afford season tickets, but didn't put their names on the list.

 

[MoreOrr]

Didn't the league take control of the team though? I may be wrong on that. Balsille had a deal in principle to buy the Penguins before it was blocked -- this when his intentions were less obvious.

I imagine that this could end up being the case. The League takes control of the team for next Season, with an agreement that Balsille gets it at the end of the Season if no other viable buyer comes along.

 

[Egil]

2500.

The question is never the number of people who would like tickets. It is the number of people who would like tickets and have the wherewithal to pay for same, which we both know is a hugely smaller number.

But the Leafs only sell full season tickets, and have 90% of the building full of season ticket holders. A franchise selling smaller packages, and getting more single game tickets would easily work. Full season tickets are only one way to skin a cat.

 

[rj]

In my ongoing effort of throwing out food for thought, here is something more for the laypeople who think it is a fait accomplit:

If JB is successful, and he moved the team to southern Ontario, what protection would he have against the league plunking another franchise right across the street from him?

Or two?

The answer: nothing.

A very idle and uncredible threat. The NHL would look horrible to the general public. They're not going to create 2 expansion teams right now in this market because of the bad effect on franchise market values and because as this whole episode with the Coyotes shows they can hardly support 30 well-functioning teams right now, let alone 32, so what 2 franchises in this league would you take away from their fans to stick in Kitchener and Missisauga?

ESPN Sportscenter Anchor: "The Nashville Predators today became the Kitchener Predators and the Florida Panthers became the Missisauga Panthers as an "F You!" to Jim Balsille. Apparently the league and commissioner Gary Bettman has decided to shoot off its final remaining toe."

 

[Artyukhin*]

If he brings the team to Hamilton, get ready for $50 nosebleed seats.

That arena is a complete dump.

By the way, the Bulldogs averaged about 4600 per game during the regular season in a so called hockey market...

San Antonio had over 5000 per game...

It's not as great as people think.

Ottawa played out of the Civic center for years .Im sure a few year in the "dump" cant be any worse until he gets his new building built.

it wont make a difference to the fans they will be to excited and will suffer in a "dump" for a few year knowing there new building is coming .

 

[Ward Cornell]

I understand the issues involved. Fact is, Balsillie was offered a licensing agreement, chose to ignore it and steal technology, and then got blackmailed somewhat.

Too bad, so sad. That still doesn't explain the accounting fraud where he stole millions of dollars from his shareholders.

It's best to stay with facts and not what YOU wish to believe!

 

[dafoomie]

The Judge granted an injuction forcing RIM to shut down the Blackberry servers. They had to pay or destroy their company. At the time of the original trial, the Patent office hadn't re-examined the patents, so at the time they were in good standing. At the time of the settlement and injuction, the patent office was merely in the process of voiding the patents. Any informed person (which you clearly are not) on this case understands that the RIM case showed serious problems in the US patent system.

RIM was basically in a catch 22. The courts assume all patents are valid unless proven otherwise, the patents were under review but it would not have been done in time for the court case, and their own attempt to prove they were invalid was overturned on a technicality. They could've continued fighting the patents but it would've been a pyrrhic victory, their company would've been pretty much destroyed by the injunction.

Classic case of a patent troll, the company in question is a patent holding company and produces no products, they filed overly broad patents on things they hoped someone else would put the time and effort into making. Several of the patents in question have already been invalidated.

Balsillie is no saint but anyone who would use this to portray him as a villan either has an agenda or doesn't know the facts.

 

[Ward Cornell]

Ottawa played out of the Civic center for years .Im sure a few year in the "dump" cant be any worse until he gets his new building built.

it wont make a difference to the fans they will be to excited and will suffer in a "dump" for a few year knowing there new building is coming .

A very real possibility is to pay rent at the ACC
MLSE will get the terrotorial rights fee + rent and they don't have to worry about competition for concerts.