Bad General Managers
- Thread starter BarBeauWahlDobLok
- Start date
periferal
Registered User
- Jul 5, 2007
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- 18,427
It's obvious you don't need Garth Snow of all people to win a Stanley Cup, and in fact there's more evidence to suggest he'll never be good enough to get it done.
Just really surprising (disappointing) that Ledecky didn't replace Snow/Capuano - For no other reason than to make a big, serious statement about your standards for the Islanders. With how embarrassing Wang's tenure was alone (alone with 1 playoff win right at the end of it), why not make a switch telling the rest of your front office, the fans, potential free agents, and the rest of the hockey world you're serious about winning?
Just really surprising (disappointing) that Ledecky didn't replace Snow/Capuano - For no other reason than to make a big, serious statement about your standards for the Islanders. With how embarrassing Wang's tenure was alone (alone with 1 playoff win right at the end of it), why not make a switch telling the rest of your front office, the fans, potential free agents, and the rest of the hockey world you're serious about winning?
BillD
Registered User
- Feb 12, 2004
- 14,637
- 810
I've stayed away from this thread because it must be so loaded with extreme opinions pro and con that it would be unreadable.
All I can add from my perspective is that we (and the ownership) have to judge the body of work of the man responsible for product, the GM.
Are we in an advantageous competitive position after an 8 year rebuild?
Do we have the kind of players that give us great confidence in their and the teams future?
Do we have an efficient use of the teams payroll cap?
Do we have coaching management that can develop and lead the players we have to achieve their best performance for what we pay them?
Answer those questions honestly and see what conclusion you reach.
I watch many games on Center Ice and see young players who are much more advanced, have much more apparent promise than the recent young roster players from our recent past draft years...namely Strome, Nelson, Lee, deHaan. All of these are mid-grade or less performance wise, which is why this team can not advance. Add the coaching issues and it becomes apparent that getting a wild card playoff spot the past 2 years was providence.
The finger points to the GM.
All I can add from my perspective is that we (and the ownership) have to judge the body of work of the man responsible for product, the GM.
Are we in an advantageous competitive position after an 8 year rebuild?
Do we have the kind of players that give us great confidence in their and the teams future?
Do we have an efficient use of the teams payroll cap?
Do we have coaching management that can develop and lead the players we have to achieve their best performance for what we pay them?
Answer those questions honestly and see what conclusion you reach.
I watch many games on Center Ice and see young players who are much more advanced, have much more apparent promise than the recent young roster players from our recent past draft years...namely Strome, Nelson, Lee, deHaan. All of these are mid-grade or less performance wise, which is why this team can not advance. Add the coaching issues and it becomes apparent that getting a wild card playoff spot the past 2 years was providence.
The finger points to the GM.
periferal
Registered User
- Jul 5, 2007
- 29,211
- 18,427
rikker
Registered User
my responses in bold.
providence? you jest, right? so God felt sorry for Isles fans, and let us have a few crumbs, because he loves us more than his other kids. yeah, no...
Hip Of Rick*
Snow Must Go!
That playoff round probably saved Snow/Capuano. 1 offsides challenge may have doomed the franchise another couple years.
Beauvillier-Tavares-Bailey,
Lee-Strome-Chimera,
Ladd-Nelson-Prince,
Kulemin-Cizikas-Clutterbuck.
Eight years since Tavares joined. Aside from a hot prospect in Beauvillier, there isn't a single player on that offence that makes the first or second line of a Chicago, San Jose, Tampa, Pittsburgh level of team. Ladd can't be counted based on how bad he has been so far.
So that's what our GM and coach have developed and implemented.
Eight years.
Lee-Strome-Chimera,
Ladd-Nelson-Prince,
Kulemin-Cizikas-Clutterbuck.
Eight years since Tavares joined. Aside from a hot prospect in Beauvillier, there isn't a single player on that offence that makes the first or second line of a Chicago, San Jose, Tampa, Pittsburgh level of team. Ladd can't be counted based on how bad he has been so far.
So that's what our GM and coach have developed and implemented.
Eight years.
ScaredStreit
Registered User
Hip Of Rick*
Snow Must Go!
rikker
Registered User
yeah, if the season were 8 games, but it's not. and i guess you want JT gone? according to stats, KO is twice the player that JT is, right?
maybe we can trade JT and Ladd for KO?
Anyone with a pulse is an improvement. That includes DP
I don't disagree, but we need a top notch gm.
ScaredStreit
Registered User
Holy hyperbole Batman! Obviously I never stated that okposo is better than Tavares, my point is that it okposo wasn't just a point lee h on jt's wing like many posters here would have you believe. Okposo is better than Ladd though.
rikker
Registered User
my hyperbole is inspired by your exaggerated pessimism.
Ladd and KO are different players, and i would rather have Ladd than KO. i have always believed/stated that they are relatively equal in their value, but you, inspired by your incessant degradation of Snow, declared an apocalyptic future.
i exaggerate again. but only in an effort to neutralize yours...
ScaredStreit
Registered User
my hyperbole is inspired by your exaggerated pessimism.
Ladd and KO are different players, and i would rather have Ladd than KO. i have always believed/stated that they are relatively equal in their value, but you, inspired by your incessant degradation of Snow, declared an apocalyptic future.
i exaggerate again. but only in an effort to neutralize yours...
What pessimism was present in my original post? I stated a fact. I was actually very optimistic before we lost 2 of our best 3 forwards in the offseason and replaced them with Ladd (who is a legit top six guy), and chimera...who is another. Ice player but certainly not top 6 quality.
But seriously what has Snow really accomplished? He's been gm for over a decade now and is the 4th or 5th (I forget which) longest tenured gm in the league.
Here's my question because I'm genuinely curious: when is enough actually enough? In other words what does the team have to accomplish this year to justify Snow's position with the team?
rikker
Registered User
yes, you stated a fact, with 1/10th of the season gone. do you really think this will be representative of the entire season? if you want, we will bet that KO outscores JT and Ladd. if you are sure about this as being a 'fact', you should be comfortable with this bet. if not, why bring it up?
how about losing Zidlicky and Strait, and replacing them with Pulock and Seidenberg? and how about the improved play of Strome, Nelson, Bailey, Boychuk, as well as Beau and Prince playing well. why, you conveniently forgot to mention them. why is that? surely, Snow is responsible.
nothing wrong with critiquing Snow's actions, and it is even expected. but come on, you are constantly harping on the negative. a fan would look at something good happening, and be happy. you seem to find the worst, even when we are playing good.
i want to see us win the cup every year, but i would be happy with constant improvement, until we are perennially a contender. we aren't there yet, but we are 10 times better than when Snow took over. i am not saying that Snow is a miracle worker, just that he has done ok.
and finally, from what i've read, the new owners seem to be a step up, and i have faith in them (so far). really, if Snow and Cappy were so bad, they would have been gone before the season started.
ScaredStreit
Registered User
I never claimed Okposo would outscore Ladd and Tavares (combined) for the entire season-please read my posts more accurately and refrain from making baseless assumptions if possible, because I'm honestly not sure where you're getting this information from.
I did claim that Okposo will outscore Ladd this season though, so if you want to bet $50 on Okposo vs Ladd-let's do. I bet you $50 that Okposo outscores Ladd this year by the end of season with the following conditions to be fair:
-Regular season points only
-If they tie in points the bet is a tie-regardless of goals scored
-Each play in at least 70 games (unless the player who plays in less than 70 games outscores the person who played in at least 70; if both players play less than 70 games the bet is automatically a tie and nobody wins)
-Trades have zero impact on the bet (unless they put a player below the 70 games threshold)
-Snow has been the gm for over a decade now (literally), and has won ONE playoff series...only to get destroyed in the 2nd round. Once again this is a fact that cannot be dispute.
-I give Snow credit where credit is due-you're either not reading those posts or are choosing to ignore them. I think Snow's done a solid job at building a defensive core. I'm happy with our top 6 (really our top 7-8 I'm happy with). In net-once again-I give him a credit for building reliable goaltending. I give him credit for being able to sign pending RFAs to reasonable contracts (for the most part). I have never bashed Snow's handling of defense since he brought in Leddy/Boychuk. In fact while I wont be missing him anytime soon-I never even understood making Strait into a scapegoat.
-I give Snow credit where it's due-but I do not hold punches if they're due as well. It's about being consistent. After 10+ years of being the GM it's time to put up or to shut up, and while the season is still young there's 3 points I want to make:
-Thus far he's shutting up
-Games in October count just as much as games in April
-You can't win the cup in October, but you can lose it.
Last edited:
Hip Of Rick*
Snow Must Go!
The team is a a playoff contender after a 8-9 year rebuild. They are not cup contenders.
25 teams are playoff contenders, so why does his overall body of work deserve praise?
rikker
Registered User
so, we made the PO's 3 of the last 4 years, but weren't PO contenders?
i will correct you. this team was a PO contender after 4 years of re-building from scratch. Snow built a decent farm system in the meantimewho praised Snow? who said he was great? i don't remember anyone saying that. you are the one using extreme language, like "idiot", "moron", etc..., and some of us are trying to reason with you.
you hate him, we get it. but trying to twist the truth to support your hate? not working...
Hip Of Rick*
Snow Must Go!
so, we made the PO's 3 of the last 4 years, but weren't PO contenders?
who praised Snow? who said he was great? i don't remember anyone saying that. you are the one using extreme language, like "idiot", "moron", etc..., and some of us are trying to reason with you.
you hate him, we get it. but trying to twist the truth to support your hate? not working...
I agree they are playoff contenders and have been for the past 5 years. With parity now about 20+ teams are playoff contenders.
By now I want more than fighting for a wild card spot and praying for the 2nd round.
periferal
Registered User
- Jul 5, 2007
- 29,211
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Of course snow has been an OK GM. Know why? The results have been OK.
That being said, trying to understand why so many fans think "OK" is good enough. OK won't win a Cup and not sure why people think Snow just needs "a little more time" and all of a sudden he'll morph into a Stanley Cup caliber GM.
I try to imagine if someone like Lou Lamorillo said he wanted to be hired as GM to bring the Islanders the Cup, I picture lots of fans being like, "Nah...We're good with Snow."
That being said, trying to understand why so many fans think "OK" is good enough. OK won't win a Cup and not sure why people think Snow just needs "a little more time" and all of a sudden he'll morph into a Stanley Cup caliber GM.
I try to imagine if someone like Lou Lamorillo said he wanted to be hired as GM to bring the Islanders the Cup, I picture lots of fans being like, "Nah...We're good with Snow."
ScaredStreit
Registered User
This confuses me more than anything else. Snow is literally 5th longest tenured GM in the NHL. The 4 longer than him:
Poile (more playoff series wins)-consistently strong team
Holland-3 Cups; 4 finals appearances
Wilson: 1 Cup appearance
Lombardi: 2 Cups
That's it...why do people think Snow just needs "a little more time"? What for?
Abe Vukota
Free 2ndGenIslander
- Jul 23, 2007
- 3,008
- 19
I think they mean he needs more time with a real NHL payroll.
I don't agree, but that's what I presume they mean.
Beyond that, there's no logical reason to keep a GM who had to make one good move this off-season and instead opted to make several terrible ones. In Islanders-land, accountability stretches for a decade or so. Other franchises might watch a coach and/or GM squander the prime years of the best player the franchise has seen since the 80s and, you know, try to fix it. We're so beaten down that failure looks a lot like success. "Won a playoff round? WELL WHAT MORE CAN WE EVER EXPECT?"
