Confirmed with Link: Avs sign Kovalenko to 2-year deal

[henchman21]

Imagine him on a line with Wood and Colton?

It’ll be worse than it is with LOC….

 

[The Abusement Park]

I must be losing my mind then because I don't remember those guys (except Makar) getting prominent roles unless there were quite a few injuries. As I said I do agree that he is not afraid to put kids in the lineup though. I'm talking top-6 F and top-4 D roles here.

Newhook got put with Burkie and Naz to end the 19-20(I think?) season when he came up from college. As Poke said, Z got paired with EJ to start the year but that quickly got nixed. Kerfoot, Jost, and Compher were essentially the Avs 2nd line the Mack breakout year. Mikko was put ok the top line his rookie year and was the only 20 goal scorer on the team. Girard was immediately put in the top 4, if not top paid with EJ after we got him.

Bednar gives guys chances all the time if you have the skill set. But he’s also quick to pull the plug if its not working.

 

[Pokecheque]

I'm not talking about older guys like Bura and Parise, etc. I'm talking about young guys. He is not afraid to try them but I don't remember any of them getting a shot on the top-6 right away unless, again there were quite a few injuries. I'm pretty sure Newhook had his first shot on the 3rd line before he was tried on the 2nd. And I'm also pretty sure Z started out on the 3rd pairing for a few games. But I never said he was not willing to try young guys. He is. In fact I agree that he is better at doing this than a lot of coaches out there.

Maybe I'm just remembering wrong.

You are definitely remembering wrong.

Again, I refer to Zadorov, Henchy mentioned Makar, we BOTH mentioned Newhook, and all three of Kerfoot, Jost, and Compher saw plenty of top six ice time. Injuries did not factor into any of those decisions. He simply does not operate like an old-school coach (not entirely at least). The reason I liked him from the beginning is that he was the anti-Babcock.

Out of curiosity, which players do you think he kept on a short leash? Only ones I can think of are Zadorov and Greer.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

You are definitely remembering wrong.

Again, I refer to Zadorov, Henchy mentioned Makar, we BOTH mentioned Newhook, and all three of Kerfoot, Jost, and Compher saw plenty of top six ice time. Injuries did not factor into any of those decisions. He simply does not operate like an old-school coach (not entirely at least). The reason I liked him from the beginning is that he was the anti-Babcock.

Out of curiosity, which players do you think he kept on a short leash? Only ones I can think of are Zadorov and Greer.

I guess I did then if you guys are so adamant about it. I thought they all started on bottom-2 lines for at least a game or two or if they started directly in the top-6 it was because there were quite a few injuries. I have no issues saying I'm wrong even though it still surprises me.

If by short leash you mean out of the lineup yeah those two for sure. There are probably a few others but I can't recall right now. But many others had short leash as far as staying in those top-6 spots and were demoted quickly to lower lines or sat on the bench when they made mistakes or behind on the scoreboard, which I personally don't have too much problem with. You have to earn your ice time.

 

[Foppa2118]

I just don't see it with Bednar as coach. Bednar always want his new guys to prove themselves first. That's why I don't see Kovy anywhere but 4th line if he ever gets a spot. He does have a chance to win Bednar's trust by the playoffs though if there are injuries but even then I doubt he uses him on the top-6 this season. Next season could be another story if Kovy has a great TC.

It's always been overstated how big of a role guys like Newhook and Jost got. It's the power of the narrative. They spent way more time in the bottom six, than the top six.

Even when they did play in the top six, Bednar wouldn't leave them there for extended periods. If they didn't pull their weight after a handful of games, they'd go back to the bottom six. If they didn't pull their weight on the 3rd line after a few games, they'd end up on the 4th, or scratched.

It's even more pronounced in the playoffs. He didn't play Byram that first year in the playoffs, because he hadn't seen enough from him to know if he could trust him. He didn't give Newhook or Jost a big role in the playoffs either. Think he was even a little reluctant playing Makar at first before he scored his first game.

I suspect Kovalenko would start in a bottom six role, probably a 4th line role, but he also plays a game that Bednar loves. More so than guys like Newy or Jost. So if he has some success early, he could get promoted quickly.

It's always about effectiveness for Bendar, never favorites. If you play well, you play. If you don't, you don't. He'll give struggling players the occasional chance at a bigger opportunity, but he'll also demote skilled vets pretty quickly like RJ, Tatar, and Drouin when they aren't playing the way he wants.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

It's always been overstated how big of a role guys like Newhook and Jost got. It's the power of the narrative. They spent way more time in the bottom six, than the top six.

Even when they did play in the top six, Bednar wouldn't leave them there for extended periods. If they didn't pull their weight after a handful of games, they'd go back to the bottom six. If they didn't pull their weight on the 3rd line after a few games, they'd end up on the 4th, or scratched.

It's even more pronounced in the playoffs. He didn't play Byram that first year in the playoffs, because he hadn't seen enough from him to know if he could trust him. He didn't give Newhook or Jost a big role in the playoffs either. Think he was even a little reluctant playing Makar at first before he scored his first game.

I suspect Kovalenko would start in a bottom six role, probably a 4th line role, but he also plays a game that Bednar loves. More so than guys like Newy or Jost. So if he has some success early, he could get promoted quickly.

It's always about effectiveness for Bendar, never favorites. If you play well, you play. If you don't, you don't. He'll give struggling players the occasional chance at a bigger opportunity, but he'll also demote skilled vets pretty quickly like RJ, Tatar, and Drouin when they aren't playing the way he wants.

The argument was not about how long the young guys would stay in important roles before being demoted. It was about how they first started with the Avs. I was saying they pretty well all started on bottom-2 lines for at least a game or two while they say a lot of them started in top-6 and top-4 roles right off the bat before they got demoted. I was also saying that if they did start in those top positions it was because we had quite a few injuries and Bednar had no choice to start them there right away on their first call up. I guess I was wrong.

 

[Alienblood]

The argument was not about how long the young guys would stay in important roles before being demoted. It was about how they first started with the Avs. I was saying they pretty well all started on bottom-2 lines for at least a game or two while they say a lot of them started in top-6 and top-4 roles right off the bat before they got demoted. I was also saying that if they did start in those top positions it was because we had quite a few injuries and Bednar had no choice to start them there right away on their first call up. I guess I was wrong.

don't get too warm to this guy he'll be back in Russia in half a season

 

[Foppa2118]

The argument was not about how long the young guys would stay in important roles before being demoted. It was about how they first started with the Avs. I was saying they pretty well all started on bottom-2 lines for at least a game or two while they say a lot of them started in top-6 and top-4 roles right off the bat before they got demoted. I was also saying that if they did start in those top positions it was because we had quite a few injuries and Bednar had no choice to start them there right away on their first call up. I guess I was wrong.

You may have been wrong about the injuries, but not your overall point. They were given "looks" in top six roles early on. This isn't the same as handing them big roles to start their career., which is the genesis of this discussion.

That's why how long they stayed in bigger roles is key to the issue, because every coach will give young players "looks" in a bigger role a few times a season early on to see what they have.

To your point though, Newhook wasn't a full time 2nd line guy until his second year, and only for half a season. Eller was given a bigger role after the trade and in the playoffs. His rookie year he played 10 games in the AHL, and was on the 4th line in the playoffs, and a healthy scratch.

Jost I'm pretty sure was always a bottom six, or 4th liner in the playoffs. Same with the regular season. Never a consistent presence in the top six, and played far more in the bottom six.

Byram didn't even play that first year in the playoffs. He was medically cleared and healthy enough to play, Bednar just said it was a coaching decision not to. Mentioned he hadn't seen enough games from him yet as the reason.

Tufte's not an example to the contrary either. He played a handful of shifts on the "2nd line" with RJ, but was mostly a bottom six guy, and only played 5 games in the NHL this year.

Unlike old school coaches, Bednar will give young players an opportunity to prove themselves, but like old school coaches, if they don't prove themselves, they're gonna get demoted quickly, and it's gonna be real hard to earn his trust in the playoffs.

 

[Pokecheque]

I guess I did then if you guys are so adamant about it. I thought they all started on bottom-2 lines for at least a game or two or if they started directly in the top-6 it was because there were quite a few injuries. I have no issues saying I'm wrong even though it still surprises me.

If by short leash you mean out of the lineup yeah those two for sure. There are probably a few others but I can't recall right now. But many others had short leash as far as staying in those top-6 spots and were demoted quickly to lower lines or sat on the bench when they made mistakes or behind on the scoreboard, which I personally don't have too much problem with. You have to earn your ice time.

Again I’m just not sure if you’re watching the same Jared Bednar that we are. Where is this notion that he “quickly demoted” or benched guys coming from? He rarely benches guys. In fact there are a lot of times if a line or specific player screws up and a goal gets scored on them, he gives them the very next shift. He definitely leans on his top guys this season a lot more but I wouldn’t say that means he benches others outright. Only player he appears to keep on a short leash this year is Johansen, and I don’t think anyone blames him there.

If anything I wish he WOULD demote/bench guys a little quicker. Or even just shuffle the lines sooner if things aren’t clicking.

 

[Foppa2118]

Again I’m just not sure if you’re watching the same Jared Bednar that we are. Where is this notion that he “quickly demoted” or benched guys coming from? He rarely benches guys. In fact there are a lot of times if a line or specific player screws up and a goal gets scored on them, he gives them the very next shift. He definitely leans on his top guys this season a lot more but I wouldn’t say that means he benches others outright. Only player he appears to keep on a short leash this year is Johansen, and I don’t think anyone blames him there.

If anything I wish he WOULD demote/bench guys a little quicker. Or even just shuffle the lines sooner if things aren’t clicking.

Bednar quickly demoted RJ, Tatar, and Drouin this year after just weeks or a maybe a month.

Zadorov saw his role reduced multiple times because he wasn't playing the way Bedsy wanted. Iginla and McLeod both saw their roles reduced his first year for the same reason.

Young promising players in Kaut and Greer never even became NHLers under Bednar, because they didn't play the way he wanted.

Bo didn't play in the playoffs his first year, because Bednar said he hadn't seen enough games from him.

Jost and Newhook were given looks in the top six, but spent a lot more time in the bottom six. Tufte's been in the AHL all year in favor of vets like Kiviranta.

Even last year when Newhook was given his biggest chance, he only lasted 3 games into the season at 2C before being demoted to the third line, where he played most of the season IIRC.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

You may have been wrong about the injuries, but not your overall point. They were given "looks" in top six roles early on. This isn't the same as handing them big roles to start their career., which is the genesis of this discussion.

That's why how long they stayed in bigger roles is key to the issue, because every coach will give young players "looks" in a bigger role a few times a season early on to see what they have.

To your point though, Newhook wasn't a full time 2nd line guy until his second year, and only for half a season. Eller was given a bigger role after the trade and in the playoffs. His rookie year he played 10 games in the AHL, and was on the 4th line in the playoffs, and a healthy scratch.

Jost I'm pretty sure was always a bottom six, or 4th liner in the playoffs. Same with the regular season. Never a consistent presence in the top six, and played far more in the bottom six.

Byram didn't even play that first year in the playoffs. He was medically cleared and healthy enough to play, Bednar just said it was a coaching decision not to. Mentioned he hadn't seen enough games from him yet as the reason.

Tufte's not an example to the contrary either. He played a handful of shifts on the "2nd line" with RJ, but was mostly a bottom six guy, and only played 5 games in the NHL this year.

Unlike old school coaches, Bednar will give young players an opportunity to prove themselves, but like old school coaches, if they don't prove themselves, they're gonna get demoted quickly, and it's gonna be real hard to earn his trust in the playoffs.

Again that is not the discussion we were having. I know and I already agree that Bednar is good at given chances to the kids. The discussion was about their first day on the job in the NHL and which role they had on that day. I don't remember them starting that high in the lineup. I guess I was wrong.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Again I’m just not sure if you’re watching the same Jared Bednar that we are. Where is this notion that he “quickly demoted” or benched guys coming from? He rarely benches guys. In fact there are a lot of times if a line or specific player screws up and a goal gets scored on them, he gives them the very next shift. He definitely leans on his top guys this season a lot more but I wouldn’t say that means he benches others outright. Only player he appears to keep on a short leash this year is Johansen, and I don’t think anyone blames him there.

If anything I wish he WOULD demote/bench guys a little quicker. Or even just shuffle the lines sooner if things aren’t clicking.

There has been many examples of kids getting their TOI cut short because they made mistakes. I'm not talking specifically about their first day here. a few that comes to mind...Kaut, Bowers, Olausson, Ranta, Meyers, Foudy, etc. Bednar is a lot quicker to sit those kids than more veteran players and I agree with that. They need to earn their minutes. I have also read quite often multiple posters here complaining about kids coming up just to play 5 minutes. People would get mad at Bednar for doing so.

Again I agree that he is much better than a lot of other coaches and I like that about him but let's not pretend that he is that slow at pulling back their TOI if they don't perform the way he likes.

 

[Foppa2118]

Again that is not the discussion we were having. I know and I already agree that Bednar is good at given chances to the kids. The discussion was about their first day on the job in the NHL and which role they had on that day. I don't remember them starting that high in the lineup. I guess I was wrong.

Again, it's obviously part of the discussion. Maybe you were specifically talking about the very first game, but the discussion didn't sound limited to one game, especially when that's a trivial issue compared to what role Kovalenko could have in general this year, and into the playoffs.

If Bednar demotes guys quickly to start and throughout their tenure, then this idea he gives them big roles as rookies or young players without proving it first isn't true either. Which has been a common assertion with Newhook and Jost in the past. A brief look in a game here or there isn't giving them a role.

In general, your point is correct though. Outside of a look in a game here or there, unless he's forced to because of the roster, Bednar wants his guys to prove themselves before being given a bigger role.

It's not that relevant if one guy out of many happened to play on the 2nd line his very first regular season game before getting demoted right after, or another played his first game on the 2nd line after two other 2nd liners were healthy scratched, and then got demoted after. Especially when we're interested in what kind of role Kovalenko will have in the playoffs. He's also much less likely to start in the top 6 than a "skill player" like Newhook.

You forced me to fact check some of the examples given on their first games, by looking up their shift charts.

JT Compher

Came in at the end of 2016-17 and played 21 games.

His first three games at least, he played on a clear 3rd line with Nieto and Comeau, then Nieto and Grigo, then Comeau and Mitchell. Only played 11:13, 15:27, and 12:16 in those games.

Tyson Jost

Played 6 games at the end of 2016-17. His first two on the 3rd line with Nieto and Rene Bourque.

Then Bednar broke out the blender for the rest of the year and played MacKinnon with Ghetto and Rene Bourque, Duchene with Nieto and Compher, and Jost with what was still the 3rd line with Landy and Grimaldi.

To start his rookie year in 2017-18, Jost played on the 4th line with Nieto and Comeau. Kerfoot centered the 3rd line.

Pretty sure he didn't spend much time on the 2nd line to start his career. They were trying him out at C, and he had MacKinnon and Duchene ahead of him, and also Compher and Kerfoot to battle with.

Alex Kerfoot

His first 3 games of his rookie year in 2017-18, he played on the 3rd line with Duchene and Yakupov.

You can tell this was the third line because it played less minutes than the 2nd line with Landy, Compher, and Wilson. Kerfoot only played 12:06, 15:11, and 10:45.

Alex Newhook

Newhook's very first game at the end of 2020-21, he played on the 2nd line with Kadri. Then the next game, he got bumped to the third line with Compher where he stayed for 2 games.

Then in his 4th game, he got moved back with Kadri. Then the next game he got moved back to Compher's 3rd line where he spent the last two games of the regular season.

In the playoffs, Compher's line became the 4th line, and he played there with JTC and Bellemare. Saad-Jost-Nuke was the 3rd line. Then in Game 3 he stayed on the 4th line, but with Bellemare and Soderberg. Then in Game 4 he played three shifts with Belly and Soda before being benched the rest of the game, or got injured, can't remember.

Then in Games 1 and 2 against Vegas he stayed on the 4th line with Belly and Sampo Ranta. Then was healthy scratched in Games 3 and 4. Then came back and played on the 4th line with Belly and Donskoi the last two games.

The start of Newhook's rookie year in 2021-22, he started on the 3rd line with Jost and Sampo Ranta.

Bo Byram

Mostly played in a top 4 role to start based on his partners. Played with Girard and Makar his first game, but only played 11:19. Not really top 4 minutes.

His second game he played with Greg Pateryn and a little with Ryan Graves. Clearly this was the 3rd pair. After that I think he played a lot with Girard in a second pair role.

Bednar also didn't play him in the playoffs that year after being medically cleared, because he said he hadn't seen him in enough games.

Riley Tufte

Tufte only started on the 2nd line because Bednar healthy scratched his other 2nd line options in Drouin and Tatar.

He was waived to start the season. Then was a healthy scratch for two games. Then got demoted to the AHL.

He didn't see his first game of the season until November, when Bednar healthy scratched Drouin and Tatar against the Blues.

Then Drouin came back, and Tufte was healthy scratched again the next two games, until Bednar scratched Drouin again and played Tufte.

Then his next game, he got benched for about 15 minutes of game play according to the shift charts, and got bumped to the 4th line with Oloffson and MacDermid.

Then he was healthy scratched again for 5 games. Then came back and played on the 3rd line with Colton and Wood, and was also benched for the first 13 minutes of the 2nd period.

Then played with RJ and Drouin, but also some shifts with Colton's 3rd line. Then got demoted to the AHL where he's been all season only playing 5 NHL games.

TL;DR

You were mostly right. Compher, Jost, and Kerfoot all started in 3rd line roles.

Newhook played his 1st and 4th game with Kadri, but these were the only two games, and quickly got bumped to the 3rd line in the regular season, and then the 4th line in the playoffs.

Byram sort of played in a top 4 role, but with 3rd pair minutes, and occasionally 3rd pair partners. Bednar also didn't trust him enough to play in the playoffs that year.

It wasn't injuries that led to Tufte starting on the 2nd line, it was healthy scratches for two other "2nd liners" and Bednar looking to shake things up, while Drouin and Tatar struggled to fit in with the Avs losing. After that he mostly played on the 3rd and 4th lines.

Bednar gave brief looks to these guys in top 6 roles for a game or two, sometimes because other roster decisions forced him to, but they predominantly played in bottom 6 roles. Both to start their career and throughout.

Newhook is also more of a "skill" player than Kovalenko. You want to give him a look with other skill players if you get a chance. Kovalenko doesn't need to play with skill players to play his game.

 

[UncleRisto]

It’ll be worse than it is with LOC….

Imagine that though.

 

[Alienblood]

Again, it's obviously part of the discussion. Maybe you were specifically talking about the very first game, but the discussion didn't sound limited to one game, especially when that's a trivial issue compared to what role Kovalenko could have in general this year, and into the playoffs.

If Bednar demotes guys quickly to start and throughout their tenure, then this idea he gives them big roles as rookies or young players without proving it first isn't true either. Which has been a common assertion with Newhook and Jost in the past. A brief look in a game here or there isn't giving them a role.

In general, your point is correct though. Outside of a look in a game here or there, unless he's forced to because of the roster, Bednar wants his guys to prove themselves before being given a bigger role.

It's not that relevant if one guy out of many happened to play on the 2nd line his very first regular season game before getting demoted right after, or another played his first game on the 2nd line after two other 2nd liners were healthy scratched, and then got demoted after. Especially when we're interested in what kind of role Kovalenko will have in the playoffs. He's also much less likely to start in the top 6 than a "skill player" like Newhook.

You forced me to fact check some of the examples given on their first games, by looking up their shift charts.

JT Compher

Came in at the end of 2016-17 and played 21 games.

His first three games at least, he played on a clear 3rd line with Nieto and Comeau, then Nieto and Grigo, then Comeau and Mitchell. Only played 11:13, 15:27, and 12:16 in those games.

Tyson Jost

Played 6 games at the end of 2016-17. His first two on the 3rd line with Nieto and Rene Bourque.

Then Bednar broke out the blender for the rest of the year and played MacKinnon with Ghetto and Rene Bourque, Duchene with Nieto and Compher, and Jost with what was still the 3rd line with Landy and Grimaldi.

To start his rookie year in 2017-18, Jost played on the 4th line with Nieto and Comeau. Kerfoot centered the 3rd line.

Pretty sure he didn't spend much time on the 2nd line to start his career. They were trying him out at C, and he had MacKinnon and Duchene ahead of him, and also Compher and Kerfoot to battle with.

Alex Kerfoot

His first 3 games of his rookie year in 2017-18, he played on the 3rd line with Duchene and Yakupov.

You can tell this was the third line because it played less minutes than the 2nd line with Landy, Compher, and Wilson. Kerfoot only played 12:06, 15:11, and 10:45.

Alex Newhook

Newhook's very first game at the end of 2020-21, he played on the 2nd line with Kadri. Then the next game, he got bumped to the third line with Compher where he stayed for 2 games.

Then in his 4th game, he got moved back with Kadri. Then the next game he got moved back to Compher's 3rd line where he spent the last two games of the regular season.

In the playoffs, Compher's line became the 4th line, and he played there with JTC and Bellemare. Saad-Jost-Nuke was the 3rd line. Then in Game 3 he stayed on the 4th line, but with Bellemare and Soderberg. Then in Game 4 he played three shifts with Belly and Soda before being benched the rest of the game, or got injured, can't remember.

Then in Games 1 and 2 against Vegas he stayed on the 4th line with Belly and Sampo Ranta. Then was healthy scratched in Games 3 and 4. Then came back and played on the 4th line with Belly and Donskoi the last two games.

The start of Newhook's rookie year in 2021-22, he started on the 3rd line with Jost and Sampo Ranta.

Bo Byram

Mostly played in a top 4 role to start based on his partners. Played with Girard and Makar his first game, but only played 11:19. Not really top 4 minutes.

His second game he played with Greg Pateryn and a little with Ryan Graves. Clearly this was the 3rd pair. After that I think he played a lot with Girard in a second pair role.

Bednar also didn't play him in the playoffs that year after being medically cleared, because he said he hadn't seen him in enough games.

Riley Tufte

Tufte only started on the 2nd line because Bednar healthy scratched his other 2nd line options in Drouin and Tatar.

He was waived to start the season. Then was a healthy scratch for two games. Then got demoted to the AHL.

He didn't see his first game of the season until November, when Bednar healthy scratched Drouin and Tatar against the Blues.

Then Drouin came back, and Tufte was healthy scratched again the next two games, until Bednar scratched Drouin again and played Tufte.

Then his next game, he got benched for about 15 minutes of game play according to the shift charts, and got bumped to the 4th line with Oloffson and MacDermid.

Then he was healthy scratched again for 5 games. Then came back and played on the 3rd line with Colton and Wood, and was also benched for the first 13 minutes of the 2nd period.

Then played with RJ and Drouin, but also some shifts with Colton's 3rd line. Then got demoted to the AHL where he's been all season only playing 5 NHL games.

TL;DR

You were mostly right. Compher, Jost, and Kerfoot all started in 3rd line roles.

Newhook played his 1st and 4th game with Kadri, but these were the only two games, and quickly got bumped to the 3rd line in the regular season, and then the 4th line in the playoffs.

Byram sort of played in a top 4 role, but with 3rd pair minutes, and occasionally 3rd pair partners. Bednar also didn't trust him enough to play in the playoffs that year.

It wasn't injuries that led to Tufte starting on the 2nd line, it was healthy scratches for two other "2nd liners" and Bednar looking to shake things up, while Drouin and Tatar struggled to fit in with the Avs losing. After that he mostly played on the 3rd and 4th lines.

Bednar gave brief looks to these guys in top 6 roles for a game or two, sometimes because other roster decisions forced him to, but they predominantly played in bottom 6 roles. Both to start their career and throughout.

Newhook is also more of a "skill" player than Kovalenko. You want to give him a look with other skill players if you get a chance. Kovalenko doesn't need to play with skill players to play his game.

Fire Bednar before Ritchie comes

 

[henchman21]

Imagine that though.

 

[UnkleKraker]

I think the expectations might be a bit out of whack if we think Kovalenko is a top 6 type.

With where we picked him we should be ecstatic if he turns into a middle 6 option.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Again, it's obviously part of the discussion. Maybe you were specifically talking about the very first game, but the discussion didn't sound limited to one game, especially when that's a trivial issue compared to what role Kovalenko could have in general this year, and into the playoffs.

If Bednar demotes guys quickly to start and throughout their tenure, then this idea he gives them big roles as rookies or young players without proving it first isn't true either. Which has been a common assertion with Newhook and Jost in the past. A brief look in a game here or there isn't giving them a role.

In general, your point is correct though. Outside of a look in a game here or there, unless he's forced to because of the roster, Bednar wants his guys to prove themselves before being given a bigger role.

It's not that relevant if one guy out of many happened to play on the 2nd line his very first regular season game before getting demoted right after, or another played his first game on the 2nd line after two other 2nd liners were healthy scratched, and then got demoted after. Especially when we're interested in what kind of role Kovalenko will have in the playoffs. He's also much less likely to start in the top 6 than a "skill player" like Newhook.

You forced me to fact check some of the examples given on their first games, by looking up their shift charts.

JT Compher

Came in at the end of 2016-17 and played 21 games.

His first three games at least, he played on a clear 3rd line with Nieto and Comeau, then Nieto and Grigo, then Comeau and Mitchell. Only played 11:13, 15:27, and 12:16 in those games.

Tyson Jost

Played 6 games at the end of 2016-17. His first two on the 3rd line with Nieto and Rene Bourque.

Then Bednar broke out the blender for the rest of the year and played MacKinnon with Ghetto and Rene Bourque, Duchene with Nieto and Compher, and Jost with what was still the 3rd line with Landy and Grimaldi.

To start his rookie year in 2017-18, Jost played on the 4th line with Nieto and Comeau. Kerfoot centered the 3rd line.

Pretty sure he didn't spend much time on the 2nd line to start his career. They were trying him out at C, and he had MacKinnon and Duchene ahead of him, and also Compher and Kerfoot to battle with.

Alex Kerfoot

His first 3 games of his rookie year in 2017-18, he played on the 3rd line with Duchene and Yakupov.

You can tell this was the third line because it played less minutes than the 2nd line with Landy, Compher, and Wilson. Kerfoot only played 12:06, 15:11, and 10:45.

Alex Newhook

Newhook's very first game at the end of 2020-21, he played on the 2nd line with Kadri. Then the next game, he got bumped to the third line with Compher where he stayed for 2 games.

Then in his 4th game, he got moved back with Kadri. Then the next game he got moved back to Compher's 3rd line where he spent the last two games of the regular season.

In the playoffs, Compher's line became the 4th line, and he played there with JTC and Bellemare. Saad-Jost-Nuke was the 3rd line. Then in Game 3 he stayed on the 4th line, but with Bellemare and Soderberg. Then in Game 4 he played three shifts with Belly and Soda before being benched the rest of the game, or got injured, can't remember.

Then in Games 1 and 2 against Vegas he stayed on the 4th line with Belly and Sampo Ranta. Then was healthy scratched in Games 3 and 4. Then came back and played on the 4th line with Belly and Donskoi the last two games.

The start of Newhook's rookie year in 2021-22, he started on the 3rd line with Jost and Sampo Ranta.

Bo Byram

Mostly played in a top 4 role to start based on his partners. Played with Girard and Makar his first game, but only played 11:19. Not really top 4 minutes.

His second game he played with Greg Pateryn and a little with Ryan Graves. Clearly this was the 3rd pair. After that I think he played a lot with Girard in a second pair role.

Bednar also didn't play him in the playoffs that year after being medically cleared, because he said he hadn't seen him in enough games.

Riley Tufte

Tufte only started on the 2nd line because Bednar healthy scratched his other 2nd line options in Drouin and Tatar.

He was waived to start the season. Then was a healthy scratch for two games. Then got demoted to the AHL.

He didn't see his first game of the season until November, when Bednar healthy scratched Drouin and Tatar against the Blues.

Then Drouin came back, and Tufte was healthy scratched again the next two games, until Bednar scratched Drouin again and played Tufte.

Then his next game, he got benched for about 15 minutes of game play according to the shift charts, and got bumped to the 4th line with Oloffson and MacDermid.

Then he was healthy scratched again for 5 games. Then came back and played on the 3rd line with Colton and Wood, and was also benched for the first 13 minutes of the 2nd period.

Then played with RJ and Drouin, but also some shifts with Colton's 3rd line. Then got demoted to the AHL where he's been all season only playing 5 NHL games.

TL;DR

You were mostly right. Compher, Jost, and Kerfoot all started in 3rd line roles.

Newhook played his 1st and 4th game with Kadri, but these were the only two games, and quickly got bumped to the 3rd line in the regular season, and then the 4th line in the playoffs.

Byram sort of played in a top 4 role, but with 3rd pair minutes, and occasionally 3rd pair partners. Bednar also didn't trust him enough to play in the playoffs that year.

It wasn't injuries that led to Tufte starting on the 2nd line, it was healthy scratches for two other "2nd liners" and Bednar looking to shake things up, while Drouin and Tatar struggled to fit in with the Avs losing. After that he mostly played on the 3rd and 4th lines.

Bednar gave brief looks to these guys in top 6 roles for a game or two, sometimes because other roster decisions forced him to, but they predominantly played in bottom 6 roles. Both to start their career and throughout.

Newhook is also more of a "skill" player than Kovalenko. You want to give him a look with other skill players if you get a chance. Kovalenko doesn't need to play with skill players to play his game.

We had some awful depth before as well. Holy ****.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Again, it's obviously part of the discussion. Maybe you were specifically talking about the very first game, but the discussion didn't sound limited to one game, especially when that's a trivial issue compared to what role Kovalenko could have in general this year, and into the playoffs.

If Bednar demotes guys quickly to start and throughout their tenure, then this idea he gives them big roles as rookies or young players without proving it first isn't true either. Which has been a common assertion with Newhook and Jost in the past. A brief look in a game here or there isn't giving them a role.

In general, your point is correct though. Outside of a look in a game here or there, unless he's forced to because of the roster, Bednar wants his guys to prove themselves before being given a bigger role.

It's not that relevant if one guy out of many happened to play on the 2nd line his very first regular season game before getting demoted right after, or another played his first game on the 2nd line after two other 2nd liners were healthy scratched, and then got demoted after. Especially when we're interested in what kind of role Kovalenko will have in the playoffs. He's also much less likely to start in the top 6 than a "skill player" like Newhook.

You forced me to fact check some of the examples given on their first games, by looking up their shift charts.

JT Compher

Came in at the end of 2016-17 and played 21 games.

His first three games at least, he played on a clear 3rd line with Nieto and Comeau, then Nieto and Grigo, then Comeau and Mitchell. Only played 11:13, 15:27, and 12:16 in those games.

Tyson Jost

Played 6 games at the end of 2016-17. His first two on the 3rd line with Nieto and Rene Bourque.

Then Bednar broke out the blender for the rest of the year and played MacKinnon with Ghetto and Rene Bourque, Duchene with Nieto and Compher, and Jost with what was still the 3rd line with Landy and Grimaldi.

To start his rookie year in 2017-18, Jost played on the 4th line with Nieto and Comeau. Kerfoot centered the 3rd line.

Pretty sure he didn't spend much time on the 2nd line to start his career. They were trying him out at C, and he had MacKinnon and Duchene ahead of him, and also Compher and Kerfoot to battle with.

Alex Kerfoot

His first 3 games of his rookie year in 2017-18, he played on the 3rd line with Duchene and Yakupov.

You can tell this was the third line because it played less minutes than the 2nd line with Landy, Compher, and Wilson. Kerfoot only played 12:06, 15:11, and 10:45.

Alex Newhook

Newhook's very first game at the end of 2020-21, he played on the 2nd line with Kadri. Then the next game, he got bumped to the third line with Compher where he stayed for 2 games.

Then in his 4th game, he got moved back with Kadri. Then the next game he got moved back to Compher's 3rd line where he spent the last two games of the regular season.

In the playoffs, Compher's line became the 4th line, and he played there with JTC and Bellemare. Saad-Jost-Nuke was the 3rd line. Then in Game 3 he stayed on the 4th line, but with Bellemare and Soderberg. Then in Game 4 he played three shifts with Belly and Soda before being benched the rest of the game, or got injured, can't remember.

Then in Games 1 and 2 against Vegas he stayed on the 4th line with Belly and Sampo Ranta. Then was healthy scratched in Games 3 and 4. Then came back and played on the 4th line with Belly and Donskoi the last two games.

The start of Newhook's rookie year in 2021-22, he started on the 3rd line with Jost and Sampo Ranta.

Bo Byram

Mostly played in a top 4 role to start based on his partners. Played with Girard and Makar his first game, but only played 11:19. Not really top 4 minutes.

His second game he played with Greg Pateryn and a little with Ryan Graves. Clearly this was the 3rd pair. After that I think he played a lot with Girard in a second pair role.

Bednar also didn't play him in the playoffs that year after being medically cleared, because he said he hadn't seen him in enough games.

Riley Tufte

Tufte only started on the 2nd line because Bednar healthy scratched his other 2nd line options in Drouin and Tatar.

He was waived to start the season. Then was a healthy scratch for two games. Then got demoted to the AHL.

He didn't see his first game of the season until November, when Bednar healthy scratched Drouin and Tatar against the Blues.

Then Drouin came back, and Tufte was healthy scratched again the next two games, until Bednar scratched Drouin again and played Tufte.

Then his next game, he got benched for about 15 minutes of game play according to the shift charts, and got bumped to the 4th line with Oloffson and MacDermid.

Then he was healthy scratched again for 5 games. Then came back and played on the 3rd line with Colton and Wood, and was also benched for the first 13 minutes of the 2nd period.

Then played with RJ and Drouin, but also some shifts with Colton's 3rd line. Then got demoted to the AHL where he's been all season only playing 5 NHL games.

TL;DR

You were mostly right. Compher, Jost, and Kerfoot all started in 3rd line roles.

Newhook played his 1st and 4th game with Kadri, but these were the only two games, and quickly got bumped to the 3rd line in the regular season, and then the 4th line in the playoffs.

Byram sort of played in a top 4 role, but with 3rd pair minutes, and occasionally 3rd pair partners. Bednar also didn't trust him enough to play in the playoffs that year.

It wasn't injuries that led to Tufte starting on the 2nd line, it was healthy scratches for two other "2nd liners" and Bednar looking to shake things up, while Drouin and Tatar struggled to fit in with the Avs losing. After that he mostly played on the 3rd and 4th lines.

Bednar gave brief looks to these guys in top 6 roles for a game or two, sometimes because other roster decisions forced him to, but they predominantly played in bottom 6 roles. Both to start their career and throughout.

Newhook is also more of a "skill" player than Kovalenko. You want to give him a look with other skill players if you get a chance. Kovalenko doesn't need to play with skill players to play his game.

The discussion started with how Kovy would be used if he comes over this season so yes it was about the first game and obviously the next few.

I appreciate the time you put in that post to prove that I wasn't losing my mind. I tried to bring up their first game GDT but couldn't. Maybe I was doing it wrong or they are no longer available due to a site update. Regardless it looks like I was mostly right except for Makar, which I quickly conceded due to being a special case, and Byram which is also a 4th round pick but like you said he got very little minutes. In Newhook case I wonder if you could verify if there were some injuries for him to start with Kadri on his first game?

I still agree with the other guys though that Bednar is better than most coaches to give opportunities to young players. I just disagree that the opportunities last as long as they say they do. He is pretty quick in pulling back their TOI if they screw up which I agree with. Kids need to earn their TOI and trust of the coach.

Anyway thanks a lot for your work.

 

[McMetal]

With where we picked him we should be ecstatic if he turns into a middle 6 option.

You mean outside the top 10?

 

[Pokecheque]

There has been many examples of kids getting their TOI cut short because they made mistakes. I'm not talking specifically about their first day here. a few that comes to mind...Kaut, Bowers, Olausson, Ranta, Meyers, Foudy, etc. Bednar is a lot quicker to sit those kids than more veteran players and I agree with that. They need to earn their minutes. I have also read quite often multiple posters here complaining about kids coming up just to play 5 minutes. People would get mad at Bednar for doing so.

Again I agree that he is much better than a lot of other coaches and I like that about him but let's not pretend that he is that slow at pulling back their TOI if they don't perform the way he likes.

We're getting to the nitpicky part of the argument here, but frankly I still very much disagree. I don't see Bednar as a "you have to earn your ice time" kind of coach. Certainly if a player is struggling or the fit isn't there, the ice time will be cut. And he definitely relies more on vets now than he did before, especially the top line/top pairing, but I still don't think he throws guys in the proverbial doghouse and makes them earn their way out.

 

[henchman21]

There is a difference on guys like Kaut, Bowers, OO, etc... and that is they simply suck. Kaut had the talent of an AHL 2nd liner with a work ethic the falls behind Arnason. Bowers was a primadonna who could have carved out a 4th line role if he was willing to take coaching, work, and have some actual injury luck. If you're legit NHL impact talented, Bendar will play you. If you're not, you better work your ass off... and if you do, he'll play you.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

We're getting to the nitpicky part of the argument here, but frankly I still very much disagree. I don't see Bednar as a "you have to earn your ice time" kind of coach. Certainly if a player is struggling or the fit isn't there, the ice time will be cut. And he definitely relies more on vets now than he did before, especially the top line/top pairing, but I still don't think he throws guys in the proverbial doghouse and makes them earn their way out.

I never said he was sending them to the doghouse. Demoting a player for a while is far from sending him to the doghouse. This is the way I see it with Bednar and young kids. Except for a select few he starts them on either the 3rd or 4th line...the more offensive guys on the 3rd line and the ones with less offensive skills on the 4th...with regular shifts on those lines. If they show they have issues defensively their TOI is reduced. He then work with them at the next practice. The next game they usually get to show if they can handle more minutes in the 1st period. If they still show issues their TOI is kept low again. If they show improvement they get an increase in their TOI. At that point he will accept a bad game but if it persists they will go back to lower TOI until they show improvement again or they will be sent down to work on those things. Bednar wants to win so he does not give a lot of TOI to guys that cannot handle their defensive side of the game. If he keeps them up with the Avs he will feed them decent TOI in the 1st period but very little for the rest of the game if they struggle with what he expect of them.

You don't seem to see it that way. It's OK. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Ceremony]

I'm not reading any of this but the Kerfoot Duchene Yakupov line was great fun.

 

[Pokecheque]

I never said he was sending them to the doghouse. Demoting a player for a while is far from sending him to the doghouse. This is the way I see it with Bednar and young kids. Except for a select few he starts them on either the 3rd or 4th line...the more offensive guys on the 3rd line and the ones with less offensive skills on the 4th...with regular shifts on those lines. If they show they have issues defensively their TOI is reduced. He then work with them at the next practice. The next game they usually get to show if they can handle more minutes in the 1st period. If they still show issues their TOI is kept low again. If they show improvement they get an increase in their TOI. At that point he will accept a bad game but if it persists they will go back to lower TOI until they show improvement again or they will be sent down to work on those things. Bednar wants to win so he does not give a lot of TOI to guys that cannot handle their defensive side of the game. If he keeps them up with the Avs he will feed them decent TOI in the 1st period but very little for the rest of the game if they struggle with what he expect of them.

You don't seem to see it that way. It's OK. We can agree to disagree.

Okay, I'll just end this by saying this is what you said in the original post.

I just don't see it with Bednar as coach. Bednar always want his new guys to prove themselves first. That's why I don't see Kovy anywhere but 4th line if he ever gets a spot. He does have a chance to win Bednar's trust by the playoffs though if there are injuries but even then I doubt he uses him on the top-6 this season. Next season could be another story if Kovy has a great TC.

The highlighted part of your post here is simply not true. He slots guys in the role he feels they'll excel in. If they struggle, yes, they get yanked. Sometimes quickly (Tatar), sometimes not (Jost, Compher). That is by definition NOT "prove yourself first". If he were a Babcock-type coach he'd slot one of those new guys in a grinder/depth role to begin with and make them "earn" their way out like a lot of old-school coaches. But giving them that big role to begin with is the complete opposite of that.