Speculation: AV is The Bubblegum Man - can he chew it?

[Trxjw]

In my view, he milked everything he could out of a squad of mediocre players and consistently inconsistent "skilled" players.

Again, the players got exactly what they wanted and we're seeing it played out on the ice this year. How many times have you thought to yourself "this team didn't give enough effort tonight" after a game this year? How many times did you say that to yourself during the Torts era.

They gave up once they were down 3-0 last night. Even guys like Kreider (who has been one of the few bright spots this year) was gliding down the ice and looked defeated. That's unnaceptable. If you are going to suck at least do it with effort and pride. To many times this year, we've mailed it in when we're down (and even sometimes when we're leading, ala Boston & NJ).

When you're getting paid millions of dollards, you're feelings are secondary, especially when you're coach is of the opinion you're not giving it your all. Which, after their showing this year, i'm becoming more and more inclined to agree with.

And his "LOLWUT" was unecessary, but the first part of his post, made a point, which you chose to ignore. I don't see a good, strong team, being one that can't take criticism at times for their inconsistent play.

I've never said anything to the contrary of what you're getting at. I think it's pathetic that the team needs to be coddled, and that they cannot motivated themselves. Though I would argue that this team had the same problems we're having now for a significant portion of last year.

However, the bolded part confuses me. You seem to be relating your stance of the team being lazy to what was originally said. I simply said that Tortorella beat the players down. I don't see how that's really up for debate. I mean, they got him fired. How much more proof do you need that he wore them down to a breaking point?

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Pyatt and Pouliot doesn't bring anything to this team, but they should also be easy to replace for that add some grit on the fourth line? Shouldn't be all that expensive?

Remember, the guy being tasked to replace them is the same guy who signed him. Easy to replace with grit? Outside of the Prust trade, when has this GM managed to effectively add grit?

Shouldn't be all that expensive?

If you're signing UFAs, it's going to be expensive. Consider this: since the first lockout, this GM has spent $32.275M on bottom six, place-holder, gap-fillers in Arron Asham, Mike Rupp, Donald Brashear, Derek Boogaard, Benoit Pouliot, Taylor Pyatt, Dominic Moore, Ruslan Fedotenko, Jason Ward, Ville Nieminen, Aaron Voros and Patrick Rissmiller. How is it that in 13 years, the team has not been able to develop players who are better than the names listed above?

 

[pld459666]

Kreider runs over guys all the time.
Nash has 10 points in 15 games

And we are still soft and Nash is still largely invisible.

Nas at 10pts every 15 games is a 54 point pace. THAT'S PATHETIC

What's your point.

Kreider is getting there. I like what I am seeing, but he's not where he needs to be yet.

Nash is a perimeter player. The softest PF in the game hands down

The point remains, the team is solf and Nash fits that.

 

[Puckface NYR*]

I've never said anything to the contrary of what you're getting at. I think it's pathetic that the team needs to be coddled, and that they cannot motivated themselves. Though I would argue that this team had the same problems we're having now for a significant portion of last year.

However, the bolded part confuses me. You seem to be relating your stance of the team being lazy to what was originally said. I simply said that Tortorella beat the players down. I don't see how that's really up for debate. I mean, they got him fired. How much more proof do you need that he wore them down to a breaking point?

I'm confusing myself, honestly. I do agree that he "wore them down to a breaking point" but my major problem is that the players allowing that to happen, were allowed a louder voice then the coach who had gotten results with quite honestly, marginally talented squads.

People can complain about his personality all they want, but Torts was the main reason behind the Rangers success (along with Hank) the past couple of years.

I didn't agree with the firing then and i still don't now. I just think it's becoming glaringly obvious that the personnel on this roster is the problem, outside of a handful of players. No coach can fix this team. The fact that AV and now Richards are constatnly questioning the efforts of others speaks volumes about the makeup of this team.

It's time to stop blaming the coaches and start blaming the players. The wrong guys are here. I may have misinterpreted your posts, but quite honestly, I had no problem with Torts holding players accountable, publicly or privately. I didn't always agree with his actions, but I always did believe he was doing what he considered best for the success of this team.

 

[Puckface NYR*]

And we are still soft and Nash is still largely invisible.

Nas at 10pts every 15 games is a 54 point pace. THAT'S PATHETIC

What's your point.

Kreider is getting there. I like what I am seeing, but he's not where he needs to be yet.

Nash is a perimeter player. The softest PF in the game hands down

The point remains, the team is solf and Nash fits that.

Nash are Kreider are the least of the problems with this team. There are VERY FEW wingers who are capable of carrying a team. Nash is fantastic. It's the team as constructed that is the problem.

I don't want our 40 goal scorer fighting and playing tough anyway. Let him score goals. The grit should be reserved for our role players/D-Men. Problem is, we have no one outside of Dorsett that resembles this mold whatsoever. (I like Boyle, but lets be realistic, he is about as tough as tissue paper when it comes to NHL players).

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I probably agree with AV's philosophy of the game, although I think they could use more physicality...but, like everything else, thats a roster issue too.

One thing that I dont like about Vigneault is his willingness to bash guys to the press.

 

[Flavius]

Surprised people still think it's a coaching problem...

This. When is it going to end? Sather and Dolan have got to go. But obviously that's never going to happen because both are the immortal spawn's of Satan designed to sabotage NY hockey at all costs.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I probably agree with AV's philosophy of the game, although I think they could use more physicality...but, like everything else, thats a roster issue too.

It's amazing. The GM wants to play a certain style and then fills the roster with players who are not cut out to play that way. And when they don't, it falls on the coach.

I swear if you ever take a step back and look at things it's more and more head-shaking.

 

[Ilovemymum]

Remember, the guy being tasked to replace them is the same guy who signed him. Easy to replace with grit? Outside of the Prust trade, when has this GM managed to effectively add grit?



If you're signing UFAs, it's going to be expensive. Consider this: since the first lockout, this GM has spent $32.275M on bottom six, place-holder, gap-fillers in Arron Asham, Mike Rupp, Donald Brashear, Derek Boogaard, Benoit Pouliot, Taylor Pyatt, Dominic Moore, Ruslan Fedotenko, Jason Ward, Ville Nieminen, Aaron Voros and Patrick Rissmiller. How is it that in 13 years, the team has not been able to develop players who are better than the names listed above?

Thanks for the history lesson Just assumed grit was cheaper than scoring talent, but no we have neither in the bottom six apart from Dorsett. Guess the GM is a part of the problem, but in order to make this debate interesting we must at least pretend he can do something right at some point. AV must have some kind of influence? Alternatively the fire Sather thread is the only Place to be I guess.

 

[OverTheCap]

Not only are the Rangers not suited for such a system, but the players required to play in AV's system are not going to be easy to find.

Players with good skating and puck-moving ability, high hockey IQ, and smart decision-making skills are the exact types of players that Sather has struggled to find in his tenure. This team will probably be dismantled again but will their replacements be any better? It never ends.

 

[Puckface NYR*]

It's amazing. The GM wants to play a certain style and then fills the roster with players who are not cut out to play that way. And when they don't, it falls on the coach.

I swear if you ever take a step back and look at things it's more and more head-shaking.

These last two coaches have had success in the NHL. At what point do people realize that it's not the coach. Torts was managements sole bright spot the past few seasons. I liked how he just took the reigns when he got here and cut whatever dead weight he could.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

It's amazing. The GM wants to play a certain style and then fills the roster with players who are not cut out to play that way. And when they don't, it falls on the coach.

I swear if you ever take a step back and look at things it's more and more head-shaking.

Not only are the Rangers not suited for such a system, but the players required to play in AV's system are not going to be easy to find.

Players with good skating and puck-moving ability, high hockey IQ, and smart decision-making skills are the exact types of players that Sather has struggled to find in his tenure. This team will probably be dismantled again but will their replacements be any better? It never ends.

To expand on both of these good posts - the entire situation is *shocker* ass-backwards.

Management: uhhh we need to score more. Quick replace the coach. Uhh we don't have the players for that coach. Damn. Time to let them walk or sell for pennies on the dollar!

Competent management: Well, we definitely need to move to a puck possession system playing man d to keep up in the NHL. What players fit that? Which don't? Lets trade Girardi/Staal/Callahan whoever at the 2013 draft or deadline. Sell high. Then find the right coach, interviewing numerous candidates to see who can best implement the game we want to play.

In short be PROACTIVE not REACTIVE. I don't even 100% agree with the plan but I would shut my mouth if they had a CONSISTENT plan that was well executed.

 

[LORDE]

To expand on both of these good posts - the entire situation is *shocker* ass-backwards.

Management: uhhh we need to score more. Quick replace the coach. Uhh we don't have the players for that coach. Damn. Time to let them walk or sell for pennies on the dollar!

Competent management: Well, we definitely need to move to a puck possession system playing man d to keep up in the NHL. What players fit that? Which don't? Lets trade Girardi/Staal/Callahan whoever at the 2013 draft or deadline. Sell high. Then find the right coach, interviewing numerous candidates to see who can best implement the game we want to play.

In short be PROACTIVE not REACTIVE. I don't even 100% agree with the plan but I would shut my mouth if they had a CONSISTENT plan that was well executed.

Sather, rinse, repeat.

 

[KreiMeARiver*]

To expand on both of these good posts - the entire situation is *shocker* ass-backwards.

Management: uhhh we need to score more. Quick replace the coach. Uhh we don't have the players for that coach. Damn. Time to let them walk or sell for pennies on the dollar!

Competent management: Well, we definitely need to move to a puck possession system playing man d to keep up in the NHL. What players fit that? Which don't? Lets trade Girardi/Staal/Callahan whoever at the 2013 draft or deadline. Sell high. Then find the right coach, interviewing numerous candidates to see who can best implement the game we want to play.

In short be PROACTIVE not REACTIVE. I don't even 100% agree with the plan but I would shut my mouth if they had a CONSISTENT plan that was well executed.

There's the right way, and the Ranger way...

always has been, always will be.. at least under Sather's watch.

 

[Kwayry]

Ulfie needs to adapt the system to the players, not the other way around, that'll fix some of the defensive issues. This was an elite Defense playing zone, let's get back to that. That would be a good first step.

 

[slipknottin]

Ulfie needs to adapt the system to the players, not the other way around, that'll fix some of the defensive issues. This was an elite Defense playing zone, let's get back to that. That would be a good first step.

It was an elite defense when it had an elite goalie.

It doesnt now.

 

[BBKers]

Chewing away...

 

[smoneil]

Nash are Kreider are the least of the problems with this team. There are VERY FEW wingers who are capable of carrying a team. Nash is fantastic. It's the team as constructed that is the problem.

I don't want our 40 goal scorer fighting and playing tough anyway. Let him score goals. The grit should be reserved for our role players/D-Men. Problem is, we have no one outside of Dorsett that resembles this mold whatsoever. (I like Boyle, but lets be realistic, he is about as tough as tissue paper when it comes to NHL players).

Our "40 goal scorer"? The last time Nash sniffed 40 was half a decade ago. He's barely been a 30 goal scorer since then. I said it before the trade, when the trade happened and after the trade--Nash has the stink of losing culture all over him. He had a bad attitude in Columbus, and I didn't want him anywhere near this team. What did we do? We shipped out a few of our leaders, and brought in a guy who only knows how to lose. It took less than two seasons. We are now looking exactly like the last team that built itself around Nash.

This team is going nowhere as long as Nash is leading the way (it's the only place he knows how to get to).

Sather, rinse, repeat.

I legitimately lol'ed.

 

[Inferno]

To expand on both of these good posts - the entire situation is *shocker* ass-backwards.

Management: uhhh we need to score more. Quick replace the coach. Uhh we don't have the players for that coach. Damn. Time to let them walk or sell for pennies on the dollar!

Competent management: Well, we definitely need to move to a puck possession system playing man d to keep up in the NHL. What players fit that? Which don't? Lets trade Girardi/Staal/Callahan whoever at the 2013 draft or deadline. Sell high. Then find the right coach, interviewing numerous candidates to see who can best implement the game we want to play.

In short be PROACTIVE not REACTIVE. I don't even 100% agree with the plan but I would shut my mouth if they had a CONSISTENT plan that was well executed.

you cant dismantle a team in a playoff race..the Rangers were very much a playoff team all of last year.

if we had Torts this year, i believe we would be once again.

Torts coached what he had way better than any other coach weve had.

AV has not coached this team well, but i think its because hes not a coach built to coach this kind of a team/style.

thats on sather.

give this man what he needs.

tear it down.

 

[CanuckPirate]

Didn't AV say he lets the players police themselves? He lets the Captain and the As do the face to face, player to player stuff?

I probably agree with AV's philosophy of the game, although I think they could use more physicality...but, like everything else, thats a roster issue too.

One thing that I dont like about Vigneault is his willingness to bash guys to the press.

Hey guys canuck fan coming in peace (really, truly, I swear. I went to New York a couple of years ago and it might be my favourite city in the world and after I took a tour of MSG I've been interested in the rangers.). I find your discussion about AV very interesting. These two quotes in particular were things that drove Canuck fans crazy. Canuck players (I think it was Bieksa) have said that AV lets the players completely police themselves, to the point where he would not appear in the dressing room during intermissions. If your team has a strong leadership core this can work wonders but when things go wrong they go very, very wrong. The team would give up if down multiple goals and 2 or 3 goal deficits would quickly turn into 4 or 5 (or if it is the finals against the Bruins, 6, 7, 8...). Like I said before with a strong leadership core this style of coaching allows the team to work through their problems on their own but on a game by game basis it can be frustrating to watch.

This other quote was interesting to me as well. If you don't agree with players being bashed in the media well...av is not the coach for you. Off the top of my head I remember him accusing Hodgson of using his back injury as an excuse for his play, criticizing Kesler for not using his linemates without telling him that was a problem first, accusing Willie Mitchell of using an injury as an excuse, physically laughing at the thought that Kyle Wellwood could "play like a man possessed" (which was actually kind of funny http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBgzZYj2lVY), and that's just off the top of my head. I'm not a fan of this behaviour (I've heard that Torts does this as well and I don't like it) but av seems to think it is a strong motivational tool.

I'm also interested in hearing more about the play of your defensemen. Many of you mentioned that quite a few of them seem to be having off years. One of av's strengths (I always found) was his defensive schemes. They helped the canucks become one of the stingiest third period teams in the nhl and helped them close out many close games. However new defensemen would always have a hell of a time adjusting to their roles because what he wanted his defense to do was very complicated. Players like Jason Garrisson and Dan Hamhuis played very poorly when they first joined the canucks but as the season wore on and they began to figure out what was expected their play improved. This might be the reason for players like Staal and Del Zotto playing poorly.

I'm one of the few canuck fans who liked AV. He helped many players have career years, he helped young players grow (especially grinders), and he can be quite innovative with strategy (not so much adjusting in game or series but that's a different story). Like all coaches you take the good with the bad.

 

[Chaels Arms]

The Rangers D hasn't been atrocious in terms of opposing teams having sustained pressure, we've just been awful in transition. I still think this team got pinned for longer stretches under Torts because (and this was most evident against Boston in the playoffs) good teams figured out that with all the forwards collapsing in front of the goalie they could just pass around the perimeter with impunity.

The main problem with the Rangers is the forwards aren't covering for the D on pinches. If AV is going to make a change, that's going to be the first one we notice - the D men are going to stop pinching since our forwards can't figure out when to drop back at the appropriate times.

 

[Mikos87]

you cant dismantle a team in a playoff race..the Rangers were very much a playoff team all of last year.

if we had Torts this year, i believe we would be once again.

Torts coached what he had way better than any other coach weve had.

AV has not coached this team well, but i think its because hes not a coach built to coach this kind of a team/style.

thats on sather.

give this man what he needs.

tear it down.

3 year rebuild to tear it down. Does a winning team build around the lieks of Brassard and Zuccarello? Ever hear these puck handlers take accountability for their play?

How does Hagelin end up as a 4th liner? DZ a minor pro?

How is effort an issue?

Why is Rick Nash having to step up?

Why are guys receiving headshots?

Why are their guys wussying away from physical play?

Why is the team having to answer questions about effort every night?

Call a spade a spade and admit your mistake and fire the guy for not being able to manage what he has. AV & Arnie ain't winning.