Speculation: AV is The Bubblegum Man - can he chew it?

[OverTheCap]

Probably not the right coach for this team but then again no coach is going to fix the problems with this poorly constructed roster.

The hilarious thing about all of this is that Sather thought that AV was going to turn this group into a legitimate cup contender this year. He didn't hire AV with the intention of waiting around a few years until he finds players to fit his system. It wouldn't surprise me if Sather does something rash and fires AV within the next season or two - yet another fall guy for Sather while he escapes blame.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Lets be honest, our bottom 6 is more talented than its been in a few years.

Based on what?

 

[NYROrtsFan]

Surprised people still think it's a coaching problem...

Why is everyone in such denial?

 

[NYR Viper]

Probably not the right coach for this team but then again no coach is going to fix the problems with this poorly constructed roster.

The hilarious thing about all of this is that Sather thought that AV was going to turn this group into a legitimate cup contender this year. He didn't hire AV with the intention of waiting around a few years until he finds players to fit his system. It wouldn't surprise me if Sather does something rash and fires AV within the next season or two - yet another fall guy for Sather while he escapes blame.

It's the players. AV came in saying he was going to open things up. He did that. We are seeing the lack of skill and grit in the line-up. VERY EVIDENT when the system shows how hockey is being played all around the league.

 

[Trxjw]

It's not AV's fault he was dealt a ****** hand by the GM. He was brought in to open things up, and make the players feel better about themselves after Torts beat them into the ground. The problem is that he doesn't have the players to open things up, and this group seems incapable of holding themselves accountable.

Personally, I find AV far more intimidating than Torts, and as we saw over the course of last year, Tortorella had his fair share of problems getting this team motivated as well. It's a personnel issue, not a coaching issue.

This team has quit on two very different coaches in Renney and Tortorella. It seems like now that they're back under the wing of a "nicer" guy, they didn't even give him a full season of effort like they afforded the guys that came before him.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

It's the players. AV came in saying he was going to open things up. He did that. We are seeing the lack of skill and grit in the line-up. VERY EVIDENT when the system shows how hockey is being played all around the league.

But all I read over the summer was how Torts went from "safe is death" to the "6 goalie" system just because he was an "idiot" or "clown". All the Rangers needed to do was hold the puck more and try to be creative and the floodgates would open. Defense doesn't matter because Hank would bail out every mistake.

Maybe, just maybe, Torts didnt adopt the gameplan he did because he was "a clown". Maybe the talent level, the slush pit that is Garden ice, and the strengths of the roster (zone defense) were the reason why the Rangers played the way they did. A style that saw more wins that I had seen in over a decade.

Not directed at you specifically Viper just general commentary.

 

[gmerger37]

Just want to point out AV is on record as being a Dentyne Ice man, not a bubblegum man so the tittle might need to be changed.

 

[RangersHank*]

It's not AV's fault he was dealt a ****** hand by the GM. He was brought in to open things up, and make the players feel better about themselves after Torts beat them into the ground. The problem is that he doesn't have the players to open things up, and this group seems incapable of holding themselves accountable.

Personally, I find AV far more intimidating than Torts, and as we saw over the course of last year, Tortorella had his fair share of problems getting this team motivated as well. It's a personnel issue, not a coaching issue.

This team has quit on two very different coaches in Renney and Tortorella. It seems like now that they're back under the wing of a "nicer" guy, they didn't even give him a full season of effort like they afforded the guys that came before him.

Torts beat them to the ground? Lol what?

 

[Trxjw]

Torts beat them to the ground? Lol what?

Oh, you mean the players advocated getting their coach canned because he was gentle with them?

Logic. It's not for everyone.

 

[Oak]

I like AV much better as a coach than Torts. At least he has them playing a system that actually resembles hockey, and the power play has improved.

I dont think anyone can complain about AV right now. He is using the players that were picked by Tortorella. This is Tortorellas team. Let a few trades happen, let him get some new players that play his kind of game, and then we can see. I think you can't criticize him (outside of possible blatantly dumb moves) until mid season next year. He should probably be allowed longer if hes not given enough say in changing the team around.

Many others have said it, but I'll say it again for ***** and giggles. Sather is to blame for the crap we have and until he retires we will continue to be mediocre.

 

[Oak]

In the end, I think AV is going to give you a top 5 team in the league if you can provide him the type of talent he needs. He'll struggle with a roster like our current one. But once he has the right team, we'll score more and be a fun team to watch... it's just going to take a few years of working the roster.

I look forward to this day, and I have no problem waiting. Let this organization think long-term for once.

Icing on the cake would be Sather retiring.

 

[Puckface NYR*]

Oh, you mean the players advocated getting their coach canned because he was gentle with them?

Logic. It's not for everyone.

A tad condescending and not really necessary, considering the fact that others could easily agree with hiis viewpoint.

Having played multiple sports my whole life, i personally am extremely bothered with players when they attempt to mutiny their coach, specifically one who has had more success with this team then anyone in the past 20 years.

I certainly didn't agree with everything Torts did, but he got results better then expected with the mediocre rosters he was dealt.

We're seeing the exact type of roster and personalities that Torts was so furious with last season, play out on the ice this year. So who do you blame, the coach or the unmotivated players (which was only confirmed by Richards last night)?

To Glen, it should have been a massive red flag having any player come forward saying Torts had lost the room and the "effort." This group clearly needs a guy that's going to challenge them game in game out. That may be AV, it might not be, I'm willing to give him a full season before I fully judge him.

This isn't pee wee hockey, if you don't want to be held accountable for your actions then you shouldn't be playing hockey. If you can't stand a coach benching you because of boneheaded mistakes, then you shouldn't be playing hockey. It makes me sick to my stomach that Callahan got promoted to the first line last night. The millions of dollars deposited into their bank accounts each year should be enough to motivate them if it doesn't then they should be sent packing.

 

[JimmyG89]

There are players flourishing in this style of play, although I feel they did under Torts later last season. Zuke was performing at a high level. So did Mcdonagh, just got no offensive situations or not as many. I think this current group has until mid January to get this ship right until a major change is made. I think AV has the right to be angry with their production. Ultimately, the players are extensions of the GM. He brings in the players. The coach has to work with them.

The bottom of the lineup is not cutting it. Hagelin has gone cold. Brass is the definition of inconsistent. Pouliot and Pyatt explain themselves. The only players in the bottom 6 I like are Dorsett, Boyle and Moore, but you only need one of Moore or Boyle. Miller is okay there. Hagelin needs to step up, otherwise he is slotted fine.

This team needs some bigger tougher bodies for 3rd/2nd line roles. Right now, they do not have this. They have lost a lot of toughness over the past couple seasons. They need to get that back.

 

[Wolfy*]

Av's jaw must be going a million times on a game day, in fact his face is about to be changed by some huge jaw muscles

And those poor teeth...

 

[Trxjw]

A tad condescending and not really necessary, considering the fact that others could easily agree with hiis viewpoint.

"Lol what?" is a viewpoint? The team got their coach fired after he berated them on the bench, in the locker room, and repeatedly ripped on them while addressing the media. If that's not beating a team down, I'm not sure what is.

 

[SlingshotVv]

I think something that is very important in this discussion, is the personnel that AV is working with. This is his first season behind the bench, obviously the line-up doesn't reflect what he'd like to see on the ice. When he has a line-up that plays his style, he's obviously one of the most effective coaches in the league.

Seriously, would you rather find a new unknown in a coach, or build a roster that AV sees as competitive? Look at the absolutely epic turn-over requirement, if this half season will be indicative of their play under AV, to become an elite team in AV's system:

Deadweight:
Brassard
Pyatt
D. Moore
Pouliot

Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Zuccarello - Richards - Callahan
Hagelin - Brassard - Miller
Pouliot - Boyle - Pyatt

McDonagh - Girardi
Staal - Stralman
J. Moore - MDZ

Falk, Dorsett, D. Moore


Players that have looked consistently bad enough to believe if this play is indicative of them under AV, they would not be a part of a winning culture here:
Staal
Callahan
Boyle
J. Moore

Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Zuccarello - Richards - Callahan
Hagelin - Brassard - Miller
Pouliot - Boyle - Pyatt

McDonagh - Girardi
Staal - Stralman
J. Moore - MDZ

Falk, Dorsett, D. Moore

Players who will not be returning to the NYR next season regardless of play:
Richards

Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Zuccarello - Richards - Callahan
Hagelin - Brassard - Miller
Pouliot - Boyle - Pyatt

McDonagh - Girardi
Staal - Stralman
J. Moore - MDZ

Falk, Dorsett, D. Moore


Players who've looked absolutely mediocre under AV:
Stepan
Girardi
Stralman
MDZ (on the left side)


Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Zuccarello - Richards - Callahan
Hagelin - Brassard - Miller
Pouliot - Boyle - Pyatt

McDonagh - Girardi
Staal - Stralman
J. Moore - MDZ

Falk, Dorsett, D. Moore

Let's examine exactly what we're left with:
Kreider
Nash
Zuccarello
Hagelin
Miller
McDonagh
Dorsett

It's also highly unlikely we're looking at moving our captain, and in all honesty I'm really hoping we don't have to. I want this to be a lingering injury, or something of that nature. The player he's been for us, is not something I want to see gone from this organization. So:

Callahan

It's also not likely at all Stepan goes anywhere, nor should he.

Kreider - Stepan - Nash
Zuccarello - ? - Callahan
Hagelin - Miller - ?
Dorsett - ? - ?

McDonagh - ?
? - ?
? - ?

In effect between Sather's mismatched personnel and staff, he's put us in a situation where this team is going to require significant turn-over over the next few seasons at key positions to be contender level successful (competitive with the West, and Boston).

 

[Puckface NYR*]

"Lol what?" is a viewpoint? The team got their coach fired after he berated them on the bench, in the locker room, and repeatedly ripped on them while addressing the media. If that's not beating a team down, I'm not sure what is.

In my view, he milked everything he could out of a squad of mediocre players and consistently inconsistent "skilled" players.

Again, the players got exactly what they wanted and we're seeing it played out on the ice this year. How many times have you thought to yourself "this team didn't give enough effort tonight" after a game this year? How many times did you say that to yourself during the Torts era.

They gave up once they were down 3-0 last night. Even guys like Kreider (who has been one of the few bright spots this year) was gliding down the ice and looked defeated. That's unnaceptable. If you are going to suck at least do it with effort and pride. To many times this year, we've mailed it in when we're down (and even sometimes when we're leading, ala Boston & NJ).

When you're getting paid millions of dollards, you're feelings are secondary, especially when you're coach is of the opinion you're not giving it your all. Which, after their showing this year, i'm becoming more and more inclined to agree with.

And his "LOLWUT" was unecessary, but the first part of his post, made a point, which you chose to ignore. I don't see a good, strong team, being one that can't take criticism at times for their inconsistent play.

 

[JimmyG89]

I think that breakdown is a little too much. Don't see that many issues on defense. Staal needs to play. He has missed so much time recently. He is not being moved. Girardi should. He will cost a lot. He can get a lot in return as well.

I remain consistent in saying Torts should have been given this season to see if they need to overhaul the roster or add to it. Only positive is that AV gets to see who on the roster fits his style and who should be let go.

 

[Ilovemymum]

Isn't it a bit short timeframe to say that half the roster is crap? Callahan, Stralman, Staal, Hagelin and Brassard all have shown the potential earlier. Maybe the latter in only for a short stint last season, but cannot understand how this roster can be as bad as some people think. By the same measurement, Kreider, Zuke and Richards would be complete garbage last season or at the start of this. Talbot would be an AHLer for life.It's gonna be interesting to see what possible trades are gonna happen down the line. Would like some muscles and heart in the bottom six, and some brains at center in the top six. Staal is literately a headache as he is questionable both for keeps and concerning trade value in this condition. It was mentioned earlier this season that AV was very serious about individual player development. If he can do some trades that fits his style and get proper time to work on them this might be ok. Like next season at least?

 

[pld459666]

Lets be honest, our bottom 6 is more talented than its been in a few years.

which is really ****ing sad when you think about it.

and I'm not so certain your statement is 100 correct.

Boyle is still a talentless slug

AND I would take Mitchell, Fedotenko and Prust over Pyatt, Moore and Pouliot

That leaves us with Hagelin and Dorsett who I like and would have a place on my team, but the other four guys? Gone is a heart beat.

 

[pld459666]

I think the biggest problem the team has is that the vast majority of our forwards do not look to or like to physically engage the opposition.

I'm not talking about fighting, I'm talking about taking the body and eliminating your man.

As a GROUP, they are a very soft bunch.

aside from Callahan and Dorsett, everyone else is MORE THAN HAPPY to peel away from a body check then they are initiating contact. THAT"S SOFT

soft at the top, talentless at the bottom.

not a good equation.

And Nash has to be THE MOST INEFFECTIVE POWER FORWARD in the league.

 

[slipknottin]

I think the biggest problem the team has is that the vast majority of our forwards do not look to or like to physically engage the opposition.

I'm not talking about fighting, I'm talking about taking the body and eliminating your man.

As a GROUP, they are a very soft bunch.

aside from Callahan and Dorsett, everyone else is MORE THAN HAPPY to peel away from a body check then they are initiating contact. THAT"S SOFT

soft at the top, talentless at the bottom.

not a good equation.

And Nash has to be THE MOST INEFFECTIVE POWER FORWARD in the league.

Kreider runs over guys all the time.
Nash has 10 points in 15 games

 

[SlingshotVv]

Isn't it a bit short timeframe to say that half the roster is crap? Callahan, Stralman, Staal, Hagelin and Brassard all have shown the potential earlier. Maybe the latter in only for a short stint last season, but cannot understand how this roster can be as bad as some people think. By the same measurement, Kreider, Zuke and Richards would be complete garbage last season or at the start of this. Talbot would be an AHLer for life.It's gonna be interesting to see what possible trades are gonna happen down the line. Would like some muscles and heart in the bottom six, and some brains at center in the top six. Staal is literately a headache as he is questionable both for keeps and concerning trade value in this condition. It was mentioned earlier this season that AV was very serious about individual player development. If he can do some trades that fits his style and get proper time to work on them this might be ok. Like next season at least?

In my scenario Callahan and Hagelin remain. Callahan has to be injury related, I mean he can't make a pass or a play for his life, and tape-totape passes he can't handle right now. Stralman has played ok for us under Torts, and he filled an immediate need. Under AV, he just gets lost on the ice too often. I don't hate him as a bottom pairing guy but he's been paired with Staal and that duo has been atrocious at making the simple plays to move the puck out, or get involved in any way what-so-ever with the offense.

Brassard wasn't good under Arniel in Columbus, and has been invisible through 30 games this season. Who did he play well under? Torts. Can we send him to Van for something? He's inbetween the play all the time. He doesn't get in quick enough to create a forecheck, nor does he find open ice in the offensive zone to snipe. He doesn't win any battles along the boards to support a possession style, nor does he deke people out of their skates and slash to the net. He doesn't bring anything right now that make this team better.

Staal, I don't get it. Check my post history, I blasted people for assuming the guy was done, and dragged up articles about his intense off season workouts that were missed while having a concussion. That playoff season I was thrilled that he was again eclipsing McD as a clear number 1. But the guy just doesn't make any smart plays right now. He's always chasing defenders. His stick work isn't a strength right now. He hasn't crushed a single player all season. He just hasn't been hard to play against this year. Could it be injury related, and could it drastically improve? I guess. His previous play would've suggested he'd be outstanding under AV, but the guy's offensive support is 0 right now. I don't think that's going to cut it.

How can anyone say the bottom six is better this year than ever before? Pouliot, Pyatt, and D. Moore have been absolutely useless. Boyle is now solidly a one zone player in my mind. The only time it makes sense to put him on the ice is to take a draw, and the PK. That's 4 of the bottom 6! Hagelin is unique and brings a solid tool to the team. Dorsett has had quite a few breakaways under AV, and some really good scoring chances. Throw in his willingness to drop'em, and he has a place. But it's no hidden fact that we don't have a heavy. Three games in a row we've had payers pushed around, including Kreider last night taking runs from the Craps' heavy. Pyatt and Pouliot are our forechecking grinders? LOL really?

I look at Vancouver's roster under AV, and we need role players that fulfill their roles far better than the ones we have. Ad our defense is being exposed every single game. Maybe Ulfie needs to go. But it's hard to throw him under the bus for players that apparently can't win battles, or make a smart play when they have the chance.

 

[LORDE]

AV has ripped the team in the media. He isn't a soft coach. People are in love with Tortorella over one season. The other seasons look like this one. Fight for playoff spot. Get a lower seed.

The players held a meeting after the game last night. AV wasn't impressed. All these players do is talk.

Didn't AV say he lets the players police themselves? He lets the Captain and the As do the face to face, player to player stuff?

 

[Ilovemymum]

In my scenario Callahan and Hagelin remain. Callahan has to be injury related, I mean he can't make a pass or a play for his life, and tape-totape passes he can't handle right now. Stralman has played ok for us under Torts, and he filled an immediate need. Under AV, he just gets lost on the ice too often. I don't hate him as a bottom pairing guy but he's been paired with Staal and that duo has been atrocious at making the simple plays to move the puck out, or get involved in any way what-so-ever with the offense.

Brassard wasn't good under Arniel in Columbus, and has been invisible through 30 games this season. Who did he play well under? Torts. Can we send him to Van for something? He's inbetween the play all the time. He doesn't get in quick enough to create a forecheck, nor does he find open ice in the offensive zone to snipe. He doesn't win any battles along the boards to support a possession style, nor does he deke people out of their skates and slash to the net. He doesn't bring anything right now that make this team better.

Staal, I don't get it. Check my post history, I blasted people for assuming the guy was done, and dragged up articles about his intense off season workouts that were missed while having a concussion. That playoff season I was thrilled that he was again eclipsing McD as a clear number 1. But the guy just doesn't make any smart plays right now. He's always chasing defenders. His stick work isn't a strength right now. He hasn't crushed a single player all season. He just hasn't been hard to play against this year. Could it be injury related, and could it drastically improve? I guess. His previous play would've suggested he'd be outstanding under AV, but the guy's offensive support is 0 right now. I don't think that's going to cut it.

How can anyone say the bottom six is better this year than ever before? Pouliot, Pyatt, and D. Moore have been absolutely useless. Boyle is now solidly a one zone player in my mind. The only time it makes sense to put him on the ice is to take a draw, and the PK. That's 4 of the bottom 6! Hagelin is unique and brings a solid tool to the team. Dorsett has had quite a few breakaways under AV, and some really good scoring chances. Throw in his willingness to drop'em, and he has a place. But it's no hidden fact that we don't have a heavy. Three games in a row we've had payers pushed around, including Kreider last night taking runs from the Craps' heavy. Pyatt and Pouliot are our forechecking grinders? LOL really?

I look at Vancouver's roster under AV, and we need role players that fulfill their roles far better than the ones we have. Ad our defense is being exposed every single game. Maybe Ulfie needs to go. But it's hard to throw him under the bus for players that apparently can't win battles, or make a smart play when they have the chance.

Thanks, and agree with a lot here. Pyatt and Pouliot doesn't bring anything to this team, but they should also be easy to replace for that add some grit on the fourth line? Shouldn't be all that expensive? Concerning Brassard, if I recall right he played his best game before he even said hello to Torts, just off the plane. Same goes for Moore too. Couldn't be happier to get away from Colombus, but it didn't last long. Think the whole trade is getting worse day by day. Brassard does some fantastic plays, but does it with ultra small margins. He needs to change his approach to the game to be consistent and not a defensive liabilty IMO. D Moore is ok for me at 1 million. Not sure what to do With Staal other than hope he gets better With time. But With some very good indiviual coaching, some luck with Staal and some good trades in the bottom six for more heart / muscles it should at least be possible to see the frame of something? Richards gone next year is gonna suck. And the Hank deal is probably well earned and everything, put the price is hurting any rebuild. I would rather see them gamble a bit in that spot, either negotiation wise or with a trade. (Like swearing in the church probably.)