Auston Matthews is 53 goals from franchise history.

[ToneDog]

What did Wendel's will to win, or Sittler's leadership actually f***ing win?

They didn't win Jack f***ing shit.

You know the people that will be critical of the core 4 for not showing up in the playoffs will turn around and glorify Gilmour, or Clark or Sittler, or maybe the 2002 team because it was fun to watch, and it was, I love that team.

But remind me again how many championship banners are hanging from those eras?

f***ing 0, they don't exist.

We need to stop glorifying the past when the past didn't result in a championship, in fact you know what forget a championship none of those eras even resulted in a finals run.

For as overboard as the Oilers go on the nostalgia shit, and OH BOY do they ever at least those teams won.

What the f*** are we doing talking about "Will to Win" when the BEST we got was a conference finals.

Does this team have "the will to win?"

Who knows the Matthews era Isn't done.

I know the other teams didn't because they didn't win.

If the 3 amigos had the balls and heart Wedel and Sittler had, they'd have won more than one series in 8 years. Therein lies the difference and why fans are frustrated with them and why they love Wendel, Dougie, Salming and Sittler. Salming and Sittler.played under Ballard. No chance anybody was winning a cup for the Leafs.

BTW, Sittler captained the Leafs team that won game #7 in OT, on the Island against the #1 seed Islanders who went on to win 4 consectutive Stanley Cups. These guys haven't been able to beat sad Columbus and Montreal teams and can't score more than a goal in a game #7.

 

[ToneDog]

Bourque and Selanne were even older.

A lot of greats never won a Cup.

Most made it out of the first round more than once, but Matthews probably has at least 10 years left. His story is far from being finished

Matty, Mitch and Willie might win a cup at some point but I doubt it will be as a trio unless you can bring in an alpha dog and that is not happening because the 3 amigos want to be paid first.

 

[Jojalu]

Matty, Mitch and Willie might win a cup at some point but I doubt it will be as a trio unless you can bring in an alpha dog and that is not happening because the 3 amigos want to be paid first.

I find it impossible to judge their motives, or make claims that they choose money first.

None here have ever been in that situation to make a bold claim that thwy would have chosen differently.

I will say with confidence that thwre will be very few that would take less at their employment if it meant bringing in extra help. Are you turning down money for the benefit of the company if they asked?

I realise that thousands and millions are entirely different animals, but the point remains.

Like Dubas, I think in time they will realise their errors and hopefully make a selfless dwcision in the future

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

If the 3 amigos had the balls and heart Wedel and Sittler had, they'd have won more than one series in 8 years. Therein lies the difference and why fans are frustrated with them and why they love Wendel, Dougie, Salming and Sittler. Salming and Sittler.played under Ballard. No chance anybody was winning a cup for the Leafs.

BTW, Sittler captained the Leafs team that won game #7 in OT, on the Island against the #1 seed Islanders who went on to win 4 consectutive Stanley Cups. These guys haven't been able to beat sad Columbus and Montreal teams and can't score more than a goal in a game #7.

I'm aware of the history, I just no longer care, I'm sick of celebrating the past when the past didn't win.

I'm focused on this era because this era still can.

If 10-15 years from now when this era is over, if there is no championship I won't celebrate this era either.

For now though I'm going to enjoy watching the best goal scorer on the planet because make no mistake about it, he is.

 

[ULF_55]

We should be talking about how great of a goalscorer he is, but people decided to start whining about playoffs for some reason.

But since we are on the topic, we don't care about participation trophies, just winning the cup.

Not surprised, the more shocking part is that Matthews has 70 more shots and that is the difference, the guy just can't finish it seems.

He still has played better than Nylander in every series and contributes more in every aspect of the game.

I agree marner and Matthews do okay in the playoffs, but of course this thread was about goal scoring but has widened the scope of evaluation, perhaps unfairly.

Matthews is only 53 goals away from taking over from Sundin in regular season goals.

Looking at post-season he still does well, just not as well.

Yeah, its' something to watch, history being made, and all that.

Nothing can take away the records he'll hold until someone does.

We should all agree he might be the best goal scorer in Leafs history, but in the same breath we can agree he has a long way to go to be the best Leafs player in history.

He is young enough to become that, and young enough to step up in the playoffs. Maybe his drop-off compared to other "great" Leafs in the playoffs could be his coaching, or his linemate(s), or he only has 1 gear, or ...

Top 15 Leafs PPG/Playoffs (min 20 games):

Top 15 Leafs PPG/Regular Season (min 240 games - 3 seasons-ish.)

 

[notbias]

I agree marner and Matthews do okay in the playoffs, but of course this thread was about goal scoring but has widened the scope of evaluation, perhaps unfairly.

Matthews is only 53 goals away from taking over from Sundin in regular season goals.

Looking at post-season he still does well, just not as well.

Yeah, its' something to watch, history being made, and all that.

Nothing can take away the records he'll hold until someone does.

We should all agree he might be the best goal scorer in Leafs history, but in the same breath we can agree he has a long way to go to be the best Leafs player in history.

He is young enough to become that, and young enough to step up in the playoffs. Maybe his drop-off compared to other "great" Leafs in the playoffs could be his coaching, or his linemate(s), or he only has 1 gear, or ...

Top 15 Leafs PPG/Playoffs (min 20 games):

View attachment 894686

Top 15 Leafs PPG/Regular Season (min 240 games - 3 seasons-ish.)
View attachment 894687

Gilmour is the best, Marner is the 6th best, and Keon is unranked, I think we can all agree this is the best way to evaluate who is the best Leaf of all time, fire up the poll.

 

[ULF_55]

Gilmour is the best, Marner is the 6th best, and Keon is unranked, I think we can all agree this is the best way to evaluate who is the best Leaf of all time, fire up the poll.

You are correct, the premise of the thread is about individual achievement, not team success, nor being a winner.

Those days were in my childhood, in my adult life Leafs have only ever been about individual chest thumping, or more recently advanced stats to distract from team results.

Yeah, Dave's era was too long ago.

After drafting Nylander, marner, Matthews almost a decade ago ... who would have thought it would still be about individual achievements?

 

[ToneDog]

I find it impossible to judge their motives, or make claims that they choose money first.

None here have ever been in that situation to make a bold claim that thwy would have chosen differently.

I will say with confidence that thwre will be very few that would take less at their employment if it meant bringing in extra help. Are you turning down money for the benefit of the company if they asked?

I realise that thousands and millions are entirely different animals, but the point remains.

Like Dubas, I think in time they will realise their errors and hopefully make a selfless dwcision in the future

Shanny asked for a discount so they could surround them with better players. They have not been able to which IMO is because they took every cents, coming onto 2nd time around. Hellcat posted numbers for the past x years. None of the three are ahead of Pasta, yet they all want and got more money. Sorry IMO, they have no shame, given their playoff performances and results.

I'm aware of the history, I just no longer care, I'm sick of celebrating the past when the past didn't win.

I'm focused on this era because this era still can.

If 10-15 years from now when this era is over, if there is no championship I won't celebrate this era either.

For now though I'm going to enjoy watching the best goal scorer on the planet because make no mistake about it, he is.

Agree 100% but I just do not think these 3 can win as a group. We have given them enough kicks at the can. Time to break them up IMO.

 

[Jojalu]

Shanny asked for a discount so they could surround them with better players. They have not been able to which IMO is because they took every cents, coming onto 2nd time around. Hellcat posted numbers for the past x years. None of the three are ahead of Pasta, yet they all want and got more money. Sorry IMO, they have no shame, given their playoff performances and results.


Agree 100% but I just do not think these 3 can win as a group. We have given them enough kicks at the can. Time to break them up IMO.

I agree.

They could have taken less.

My point was it is impossble to point the finger without knowing whether you would do the same in such situation

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

I agree.

They could have taken less.

My point was it is impossble to point the finger without knowing whether you would do the same in such situation

What about when players that are better than them in every single way take less money?

 

[ToneDog]

I agree.

They could have taken less.

My point was it is impossble to point the finger without knowing whether you would do the same in such situation

I can honestly say I would and I have but I do not have their pedigree or agents or money.

 

[Jojalu]

What about when players that are better than them in every single way take less money?

Subjective to say they are better if you are only judging them on team playoff success.

Hard to do, but try to envision if salary had no bearing, who would you take ahead of Matthews outside Mack, McDavid and probably Makar if you had to draft

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I agree marner and Matthews do okay in the playoffs, but of course this thread was about goal scoring but has widened the scope of evaluation, perhaps unfairly.

Matthews is only 53 goals away from taking over from Sundin in regular season goals.

Looking at post-season he still does well, just not as well.

Yeah, its' something to watch, history being made, and all that.

Nothing can take away the records he'll hold until someone does.

We should all agree he might be the best goal scorer in Leafs history, but in the same breath we can agree he has a long way to go to be the best Leafs player in history.

He is young enough to become that, and young enough to step up in the playoffs. Maybe his drop-off compared to other "great" Leafs in the playoffs could be his coaching, or his linemate(s), or he only has 1 gear, or ...

Top 15 Leafs PPG/Playoffs (min 20 games):

View attachment 894686

Top 15 Leafs PPG/Regular Season (min 240 games - 3 seasons-ish.)
View attachment 894687

But he doesn't have a long way to go to be the greatest Leaf ever, he needs ONE thing.

A Championship.

He gets that, that title is his.

He's got 3 Rockets

He's got the Ted Lindsay

He's got the Hart.

He's even got Rookie of the year.

He's won almost every individual award you can.

You can argue he's a HOF lock NOW at 26.

He is a Championship away from being the greatest Leaf of all time.

So no we can't all agree he's a long way away, he's not.

 

[647Hockey]

NHL Player Playoff Stats in Last 10 Seasons

NHL scoring leaders in the last 10 playoff seasons. NHL stats leaders between 2015 and 2024 playoff seasons.

www.quanthockey.com

Past 10 years Matthews is 15th in goals per game in the playoffs.

It is a big drop from hia #1 in the regular season status, but this nonsense he doesn't score when it matters is garbage.

AM's playoff performance in games 5-7 are terrible. Especially games 6-7 when it counts the most. His playoff stats are frontloaded to the first half of a series.

Auston Matthews Career Playoffs Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Gamelogs for Auston Matthews for Career Playoffs

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[647Hockey]

I'm glad because Sundin was a poser. Barely a point per game player, no personal or team trophies. He was a flat out liar but all the Sundin nut jobs will try to defend him. And he was butter soft.

Sundin played most of his career (esp leafs days) during the dead zone era where there was hardly any scoring. He did his best on a team where his best linemates were a couple years of aging Steve Thomas and Mogilny. Then late in his career, his best linemates were Hoglund and Ponikrosvky.

Cant expect miracles with those teammates.

But I agree he was a soft player.

 

[ULF_55]

But he doesn't have a long way to go to be the greatest Leaf ever, he needs ONE thing.

A Championship.

He gets that, that title is his.

He's got 3 Rockets

He's got the Ted Lindsay

He's got the Hart.

He's even got Rookie of the year.

He's won almost every individual award you can.

You can argue he's a HOF lock NOW at 26.

He is a Championship away from being the greatest Leaf of all time.

So no we can't all agree he's a long way away, he's not.

One championship probably will make him best since Original 6.

I suppose if just looking at individual, non-team, achievement he'd be there like Ovechkin.

Individually a great career, but ... Alex Ovechkin Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

Rather have Cups.

 

[Jojalu]

AM's playoff performance in games 5-7 are terrible. Especially games 6-7 when it counts the most. His playoff stats are frontloaded to the first half of a series.

Auston Matthews Career Playoffs Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Gamelogs for Auston Matthews for Career Playoffs

www.hockey-reference.com

While I agree to a point that gamea 5-7 matter more, rhe fact is you can't make it that far without producing.

Of course they could have been better, but Matthews, nor Marner is the sole reason. Collectively they have failed

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Subjective to say they are better if you are only judging them on team playoff success.

Hard to do, but try to envision if salary had no bearing, who would you take ahead of Matthews outside Mack, McDavid and probably Makar if you had to draft

It's not subjective at all actually. The best players in the salary cap era all took less money because they wanted to win, it's a part of why they're better players. Lidstrom and the Red Wings set the example, Penguins and every good team followed after that. It's simple economics, you would think the non-hockey folks would at least get this part right like the Hurricanes.

The Leafs did the exact opposite, opting to overpay AND get no term. That's why when McDavid signs his next contract, it will be immediately followed by another Matthews overpay. It's the reason why by age 30, their contract values differ by 2 million total even though Matthews will never and has never been on McDavid's level. It's the reason why Marner got his overpay. And it's why the team has done nothing and will do nothing.

Sad, but on the bright side it wasn't just on Matthews. It was a joint decision to not try and win by the team and player. I believe Treliving called it a "partnership".

 

[Martin Skoula]

Shanny asked for a discount so they could surround them with better players. They have not been able to which IMO is because they took every cents, coming onto 2nd time around. Hellcat posted numbers for the past x years. None of the three are ahead of Pasta, yet they all want and got more money. Sorry IMO, they have no shame, given their playoff performances and results.


Agree 100% but I just do not think these 3 can win as a group. We have given them enough kicks at the can. Time to break them up IMO.

Shanny asking them to take a discount is kind of funny when you consider at the same age he signed a massive offer sheet to force his way into bigger money and bigger minutes even though he had a career high of only 30 goals 72 points at the time. He was also asking them this as the highest paid exec in hockey.

Do as I say not as I do.

 

[Jojalu]

It's not subjective at all actually. The best players in the salary cap era all took less money because they wanted to win, it's a part of why they're better players. Lidstrom and the Red Wings set the example, Penguins and every good team followed after that. It's simple economics, you would think the non-hockey folks would at least get this part right like the Hurricanes.

The Leafs did the exact opposite, opting to overpay AND get no term. That's why when McDavid signs his next contract, it will be immediately followed by another Matthews overpay. It's the reason why by age 30, their contract values differ by 2 million total even though Matthews will never and has never been on McDavid's level. It's the reason why Marner got his overpay. And it's why the team has done nothing and will do nothing.

Sad, but on the bright side it wasn't just on Matthews. It was a joint decision to not try and win by the team and player. I believe Treliving called it a "partnership".

I think when Dubas admitted not signing them to lesser deals before he signed Tavares closed this discussion.

What I am most upset about is that the Leafs doubled down and signed Matthews and Nylander, plus seem hellbent on signing Marner to above market price.

I don't blame any of those 3 for asking. Someone has to be thw adult in the room and say no

 

[keonsbitterness]

He is not even a likeable person. At least Mats Sundin was a humble, kind man from we have seen. Always gracious with his time, always smiling. I don't even want Mats record to fall. OH well. You want me to appreciate greatness? A lot of people didn't even appreciate Mats Sundin just because he was born in Sweden. But everyone is going goo goo gaga over Matthews. He is half the person Mats was and is. Sorry for the rant, but none of these guys playing for the Leafs are likeable at all.

Matthews fulfills his team and media duties as well as any other player. Other than the incident in Arizona, what makes him not likeable?

 

[rumman]

Yzerman didn't win until he was 31.

Ovechkin was 32

Stamkos was about 30

Matthews is 26 we aren't done here we have time.

The team is on the right track with the coaching change and the defensive upgrades.

We'll get there.

So, when he hits his 30’s he’ll probably jump ship and peak with another team ……

 

[TheDoldrums]

What about when players that are better than them in every single way take less money?

Who are you talking about, there is no one in the league better than Matthews in every single way…

 

[rumman]

Then they can stop watching. If something is causing you to be upset or have distain for it, they should remove it from their lives. No one is forcing them to keep being a fan of something that they are tired of lol.

Plenty have already given up, plenty more will abandon them if they run it back, until they stop giving half the cap to four forwards they aren’t winning shit, President’s Trophy excluded. At least @confucious will be happy…….

 

[rumman]

I also believe the core does not work together for whatever reason.

I truly believe all 4 of them could help any team win if they were to be moved, but there is enough evidence to say it will not work here collectively.

I am just as tired as the next guy with the Leafs decisions to constantly run it back, but I have witnessed far worse teams than this in Leafland and although I desire to see them win the Cup, I can still appreciate the minimal success they have had. Making the playoffs 8 straight years is hard in a cap era. Winning only 1 round seems equally as hard though..

Like ketchup and ice cream separate great, together not so much……..