Auston Matthews Discussion Thread

[SeaOfBlue]

Mike Babcock had the right "gud pro" message but the wrong delivery - which seems to have hurt the message.

Sheldon Keefe seems to still be figuring out what the right message is.

I feel like Keefe is shooting at a moving target but at least is facing the right direction. Babcock had a stationary target but was facing the opposite direction and refused to turn around.

Translation: He has things to work on, but nothing that should be impossible to overcome. Most importantly, he is willing to change. Babcock had massive things to overcome and he refused to change so it simply was not going to work.

 

[saffronleaf]

Has Matthews summoned Keefe yet for the annual bathing of his feet?

 

[Stephen]

I feel like Keefe is shooting at a moving target but at least is facing the right direction. Babcock had a stationary target but was facing the opposite direction and refused to turn around.

Translation: He has things to work on, but nothing that should be impossible to overcome. Most importantly, he is willing to change. Babcock had massive things to overcome and he refused to change so it simply was not going to work.

No, I see it the opposite way. Babcock was the wrong voice for this group and wasn’t going to change to get more out of them, but his underlying message of more balanced lines, less intensive utilization of stars and big defensemen matched to their right side all look like typical things the Leafs will evolve towards. Unpopular guy but his ideas are pretty standard to what a contender would look like.

 

[nuck]

I feel like Keefe is shooting at a moving target but at least is facing the right direction. Babcock had a stationary target but was facing the opposite direction and refused to turn around.

Translation: He has things to work on, but nothing that should be impossible to overcome. Most importantly, he is willing to change. Babcock had massive things to overcome and he refused to change so it simply was not going to work.

Agree to disagree here. Do we actually know Keefe is willing to change? I really didn't see much in the way of successful adjustments to either the pp during the year or the playoff effectiveness of his top guys. Its like he just rolled them out and told them to go out skill the other guys. The Habs were being coached and Keefe was just opening the door and saying "go get em". Babcock was not going to work because he did not have the same lineup philosophy as his GM and there can be only one guy running the team but his weaker lineups were arguably more effective against stronger playoff opponents.

They paid $11M per for Tavares and his ice time was cut to 18:11 this year. Willie was played a ridiculous 16:36. Sheldon was willing to change by under-using his 3-4 forwards so his top 2 are gassed in the playoffs but the moves made little sense and the results seem to be kind of predictable. He really didn't accomplish much except to take a strong lineup with young stars at their peak and have a solid regular season. I can't think of any Leaf's coach that couldn't have matched this weak result with this group. Sorry but nothing about Keefe tells me he is facing in the right direction except that he isn't at odds with Dubas which is fatal for a coach. Being able to win most nights with this lineup doesn't seem like much of a challenge. The things he has to work on have burned through 2 playoff runs and we don't know what he has learned from that except the killer instinct thing which I guess will fix the powerplay and free up Marner and Matthews from tight checking in the playoffs.

 

[Gallagbi]

Agree to disagree here. Do we actually know Keefe is willing to change? I really didn't see much in the way of successful adjustments to either the pp during the year or the playoff effectiveness of his top guys. Its like he just rolled them out and told them to go out skill the other guys. The Habs were being coached and Keefe was just opening the door and saying "go get em". Babcock was not going to work because he did not have the same lineup philosophy as his GM and there can be only one guy running the team but his weaker lineups were arguably more effective against stronger playoff opponents.

For PP adjustments they tried
Split units, stacked units, strong side shots, offside shots double screen and no screen

For lineup changes they altered every single line for the playoffs first through fourth.

Complain about the effectiveness of the changes, but many changes were tried.

I'd also say we carried much more of the play overall in the Habs series. I doubt the Habs were thrilled giving up two third period Leafs vs. The Leafs and being completely dominated in that game 6 OT. They're happy with the outcome, but the Habs were much better in series 2 and 3 than vs. Us when you look at how much they generated/allowed.

I have my issues with what Keefe did, but this notion that he was unwilling to change or completely outcoached is nuts to me. At the end of the day we lost on unforced turnovers on routine plays, some bad goals and a lack of finish on a significant chance advantage.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

For PP adjustments they tried
Split units, stacked units, strong side shots, offside shots double screen and no screen

For lineup changes they altered every single line for the playoffs first through fourth.

Complain about the effectiveness of the changes, but many changes were tried.

I'd also say we carried much more of the play overall in the Habs series. I doubt the Habs were thrilled giving up two third period Leafs vs. The Leafs and being completely dominated in that game 6 OT.

I have my issues with what Keefe did, but this notion that he was unwilling to change or completely outcoached is nuts to me. At the end of the day we lost on unforced turnovers on routine plays, some bad goals and a lack of finish on a significant chance advantage.

There is a discussion about whether some of the changes were right, and whether certain other changes should have been made, but the notion that Keefe has not been willing or able to change/adapt is ridiculous.

As you said, he tried to do a lot with the PP (for example). The problem is that he tried to change everything but ignored the real problem: Marner. Everything died on Marner's stick, which killed the effectiveness of everyone else... Especially Rielly. Then we heard on here for months that it was Rielly's fault because he did not have a big shot from the point. We take Rielly off of the top PP and suddenly he played the best PP hockey he had in months while the top PP continued to be useless.

Babcock rarely adapted or adjusted. It was a regular and consistent complaint from Day 1 until he was fired. It was a straight unwillingness, not a matter of whether the changes (or lack thereof) were correct.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Agree to disagree here. Do we actually know Keefe is willing to change? I really didn't see much in the way of successful adjustments to either the pp during the year or the playoff effectiveness of his top guys. Its like he just rolled them out and told them to go out skill the other guys. The Habs were being coached and Keefe was just opening the door and saying "go get em". Babcock was not going to work because he did not have the same lineup philosophy as his GM and there can be only one guy running the team but his weaker lineups were arguably more effective against stronger playoff opponents.

They paid $11M per for Tavares and his ice time was cut to 18:11 this year. Willie was played a ridiculous 16:36. Sheldon was willing to change by under-using his 3-4 forwards so his top 2 are gassed in the playoffs but the moves made little sense and the results seem to be kind of predictable. He really didn't accomplish much except to take a strong lineup with young stars at their peak and have a solid regular season. I can't think of any Leaf's coach that couldn't have matched this weak result with this group. Sorry but nothing about Keefe tells me he is facing in the right direction except that he isn't at odds with Dubas which is fatal for a coach. Being able to win most nights with this lineup doesn't seem like much of a challenge. The things he has to work on have burned through 2 playoff runs and we don't know what he has learned from that except the killer instinct thing which I guess will fix the powerplay and free up Marner and Matthews from tight checking in the playoffs.

Glad I’m not the only one who sees this. Nylander & Tavares under utilized, M&M were gassed most of the time. Keefe is a good regular season coach because coaches don’t make too many adjustments during the regular season. Playoffs he just gets exposed

 

[Garthinater]

How many marner threads have we had and yet this guy continues to escape and evade virtually all criticism.

This fan base lacks common sense and logic.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

For PP adjustments they tried
Split units, stacked units, strong side shots, offside shots double screen and no screen

For lineup changes they altered every single line for the playoffs first through fourth.

Complain about the effectiveness of the changes, but many changes were tried.

I'd also say we carried much more of the play overall in the Habs series. I doubt the Habs were thrilled giving up two third period Leafs vs. The Leafs and being completely dominated in that game 6 OT. They're happy with the outcome, but the Habs were much better in series 2 and 3 than vs. Us when you look at how much they generated/allowed.

I have my issues with what Keefe did, but this notion that he was unwilling to change or completely outcoached is nuts to me. At the end of the day we lost on unforced turnovers on routine plays, some bad goals and a lack of finish on a significant chance advantage.

He's unable to make the tough changes and I know he won't be able to make them going forward either. Muffin man Marner will still quarter back the PP even though he hasn't scored on it in almost a full season. The magnificent combo of Mitch and Auston continue to crap the bed in win and move on or lose and go home situations and I guarantee you that big brain Keefe will start the season with those two chokers again. I don't know if it's because he loves overplaying top forwards or because Matthews and Marner are running the show, but regardless Keefe is in over his head.

 

[m1ker]

Keefes adjustments are what baffled me. Why tinker all season with the lines only to have Hyman glued to the top line come playoffs. Then in a sudden death situation you decide to move Nylander onto the top line something that was never tinkered with all season..

if we wanted a boost it’s not rocket science you move to Galch - Matthews - Nylander. You don’t move Nylander to a dead line

 

[Mickey Marner]

No, I see it the opposite way. Babcock was the wrong voice for this group and wasn’t going to change to get more out of them, but his underlying message of more balanced lines, less intensive utilization of stars and big defensemen matched to their right side all look like typical things the Leafs will evolve towards. Unpopular guy but his ideas are pretty standard to what a contender would look like.

I wonder if we'd have been better off with Keefe first, then Babcock, rather than the opposite. Begin with the longer leash and then reign it in, rather than progressively loosen restrictions.

 

[IPS]

How many marner threads have we had and yet this guy continues to escape and evade virtually all criticism.

This fan base lacks common sense and logic.

Probably because it's Marner who's had the least amount of points and goals in the last 2 playoffs.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Probably because it's Marner who's had the least amount of points and goals in the last 2 playoffs.

Honestly I think it's because of how the contract negotiation went. Mathews is just as notch below Mitch on the choke scale so he too should be catching flack, but unlike Mitch, Dubey gifted Matthews his very very rich contract. Marner had to pull a whole bunch of shenanigans to get his. Plus he makes more than all his comparables who legit might all be better.

I've always felt like both were overpaid (more term needed with Matthews. Less money and more term needed with Marner) but we all remember how the Nylander negotiations went and he was killed for it. While Marner's negotiations didn't last as long. He used just about every play in the book to hoodwink our naive GM into giving that crazy deal.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Matty needs to buckle down this summer and lose 10-15 pounds and work on his straight line speed .. he needs to be more explosive on his skates

 

[IPS]

Honestly I think it's because of how the contract negotiation went. Mathews is just as notch below Mitch on the choke scale so he too should be catching flack, but unlike Mitch, Dubey gifted Matthews his very very rich contract. Marner had to pull a whole bunch of shenanigans to get his. Plus he makes more than all his comparables who legit might all be better.

I've always felt like both were overpaid (more term needed with Matthews. Less money and more term needed with Marner) but we all remember how the Nylander negotiations went and he was killed for it. While Marner's negotiations didn't last as long. He used just about every play in the book to hoodwink our naive GM into giving that crazy deal.

Marner waited and was the last one to negotiate. Probably a mistake on his part. He refused to take the hit that came with being the last one to negotiate - so he went ahead and put on the most toxic negotiation ever seen. Teammates had to be let go and Marleau had to get burned for a 1st round pick in order to accommodate Mitch's demands - this put the fanbase anger into overdrive and it hasn't subsided yet.

This was the negotiation for Dubas to finally put his foot down even if meant threatening Marner to sit for the season but he turned into a pussboy yet again.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Marner waited and was the last one to negotiate. Probably a mistake on his part. He refused to take the hit that came with being the last one to negotiate - so he went ahead and put on the most toxic negotiation ever seen. Teammates had to be let go and Marleau had to get burned for a 1st round pick in order to accommodate Mitch's demands - this put the fanbase anger into overdrive and it hasn't subsided yet.

This was the negotiation for Dubas to finally put his foot down even if meant threatening Marner to sit for the season but he turned into a pussboy yet again.

Yes you can't make people happy when you are a GM .. let him sit out a season if it takes that .. his qualifying offer, if there was one, would have been much lower in AAV .. to me that GM would have been fired on da spot for that move alone .. no one would have offered above Kuch level - no one .. then you just accept da offer at 8-9M AAV for a smaller bridge deal and move on

 

[ACC1224]

Honestly I think it's because of how the contract negotiation went. Mathews is just as notch below Mitch on the choke scale so he too should be catching flack, but unlike Mitch, Dubey gifted Matthews his very very rich contract. Marner had to pull a whole bunch of shenanigans to get his. Plus he makes more than all his comparables who legit might all be better.

I've always felt like both were overpaid (more term needed with Matthews. Less money and more term needed with Marner) but we all remember how the Nylander negotiations went and he was killed for it. While Marner's negotiations didn't last as long. He used just about every play in the book to hoodwink our naive GM into giving that crazy deal.

Things would have went so much easier had Dubas either taken Marners initial offer and/or signed Marner before Matthews. Colossal mistake signing Matthews first.

 

[Antropovsky]

Matty needs to buckle down this summer and lose 10-15 pounds and work on his straight line speed .. he needs to be more explosive on his skates

He's two steps ahead of you. He already lost 10lbs last summer and was down to 210lbs.

A new Auston Matthews: How a unique young trainer rebuilt the Maple Leafs star

https://thehockeywriters.com/maple-leafs-matthews-slimmed-down/

 

[JT AM da real deal]

He's two steps ahead of you. He already lost 10lbs last summer and was down to 210lbs.

A new Auston Matthews: How a unique young trainer rebuilt the Maple Leafs star

https://thehockeywriters.com/maple-leafs-matthews-slimmed-down/

Yeah I heard that but also heard he gained another 20 pounds over season too .. playing at 210 da whole season and maybe getting down to 200 for playoffs should be goal .. he needs to keep up his speed gains .. it is not like he plays a physical game

 

[egd27]

I feel like Keefe is shooting at a moving target but at least is facing the right direction. Babcock had a stationary target but was facing the opposite direction and refused to turn around.

Translation: He has things to work on, but nothing that should be impossible to overcome. Most importantly, he is willing to change. Babcock had massive things to overcome and he refused to change so it simply was not going to work.

Please explain the anemic PP for 35+ games and the refusal to split M&M for 12 ineffective playoff games if he is willing to change.

 

[Stephen]

I wonder if we'd have been better off with Keefe first, then Babcock, rather than the opposite. Begin with the longer leash and then reign it in, rather than progressively loosen restrictions.

Keefe strikes me as an ineffective tinkerer who has also created a pyramid hierarchy at the top with a Big 2 in Marner and Matthews and kind of demoted Tavares and Nylander to a Medium 4 with Rielly and maybe Hyman.

It doesn’t feel like the most equitable dressing room from a distance since you have 2 guys feasting on ice time and special teams and running away with stats, the second line being asked to be more defensive and then a grab bag of veteran allies who love the boys and a bunch of interchangeable guys.

Keefe kind of comes across as a bit of a substitute teacher in this whole thing and feels like he’s in over his head as a National League coach.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Has Matthews summoned Keefe yet for the annual bathing of his feet?

Media: “Why did you play Matthews when he was visibly tired?”

Keefe: “saved me an off season trip to Arizona”

 

[Gallagbi]

Things would have went so much easier had Dubas either taken Marners initial offer and/or signed Marner before Matthews. Colossal mistake signing Matthews first.

Agreed, he should have been locked up before the season even if it put Nylander behind. They needed to be tiered as we all knew it was coming.

With that said, I don't understand why Nylander wasn't locked up the offseason or season prior.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Keefe strikes me as an ineffective tinkerer who has also created a pyramid hierarchy at the top with a Big 2 in Marner and Matthews and kind of demoted Tavares and Nylander to a Medium 4 with Rielly and maybe Hyman.

It doesn’t feel like the most equitable dressing room from a distance since you have 2 guys feasting on ice time and special teams and running away with stats, the second line being asked to be more defensive and then a grab bag of veteran allies who love the boys and a bunch of interchangeable guys.

Keefe kind of comes across as a bit of a substitute teacher in this whole thing and feels like he’s in over his head as a National League coach.

I'm curious how much of our hierarchy is Keefe and how much is Dubas, because they were paid like superstars before they were played like superstars. Perhaps they're playing borderline #1D minutes to justify their AAV, or maybe Keefe actually thinks that's what they deserve. Maybe both. Plenty of blame to go around regardless, but I'd really like to determine what the origin of our classism is and snuff it out, stuff like that divides a locker room.

 

[Apex Predator]

I know a lot of people have been hating on Keefe but is it too soon to write him off? In his defense they were capped out so he was mainly stuck with the same guys throughout the season. I didn’t like the obsession with playing Thornton especially in the playoffs so hopefully he’s learned going into this season.