Auston Matthews 69 goals in 81 games, most goals scored since Lemieux in 1995-96

filinski77

Registered User
Feb 12, 2017
2,717
4,488
Which ones are scoring more than they did? I don’t think any of those guys had career years in the last 4 season, have they?

They certainly haven’t been outperforming the best players in the league the last 4 years
I did not say they have been outperforming the best players in the league.

League-wide scoring went up in 2017-2018 (first big jump). As you can see (other than one-off seasons), despite all of these guys LEAVING their peak/pime-aged years, their production increased along with league-wide scoring increases.

So these guys got older, yet produced better than in the few years before league-wide scoring increases. Coming from an Ovechkin fan: Ovechkin from 32-36 years old was nowhere near as good as he was in his late 20's, yet he had a jump in his point production, and completely maintained his goal production. Not because he was more talented, simply because league wide scoring increased and it became easier to score.

Crosby:
CrosbyAge82gp points
2014-152789
2015-162887
2016-172997
2017-183089
2018-1931104
2019-203294
2020-213392
2021-2234100
2022-233593

Ovechkin:
OvechkinAge82gp points
2014-152982
2015-163074
2016-173169
2017-183287
2018-193390
2019-203481
2020-213577
2021-223696

Malkin:
MalkinAge82gp points
2014-152883
2015-162983
2016-173095
2017-1831103
2018-193287
2019-2033110

Kane:
KaneAge82gp points
2013-142582
2014-152686
2015-1627106
2016-172889
2017-182976
2018-1930111
2019-203198
2020-213297
2021-223397

Stamkos:
StamkosAge82gp points
2014-152472
2015-162568
2016-172696
2017-182790
2018-192898
2019-202995
2020-213073
2021-2231107
 

SmoggyTwinkles

Go Leafs Go
Aug 5, 2010
7,330
4,027
Oshawa
www.bing.com
FYI to all the Leafs fans that complain about other fanbases trying to knock Matthews down a peg. 95% of the time it's only knocking him down a peg because there's a decent size of your fanbase that tries to prematurely knock him up 5 pegs.

That being said - Matthews is the best goalscorer in the league, and on-track to be one of the best of all-time. But he is not the best goal scorer of all-time right now at all lol.
Why don't you re-read that post and just pretend the poster is kinda trolling............and maybe not a Leafs fan?

I'm a Leafs fan and can't even handle this place because otherwise I have to be like "settle down man"

I don't have time for that.

But I'd love 70, even though 69 is pretty nice :)
 
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BaconNater

Registered User
Jul 4, 2011
5,182
3,787
CO
I wonder if Matthews will feel a lot of pressure to score at least 1 goal in this playoff series against Florida, after getting zero last year.
 

34

Registered User
Mar 26, 2010
21,877
9,783
Screenshot-2024-04-14-at-6.40.12%E2%80%AFPM.png
How insane is it, that a guy who scores 70 goals, is in the selke talk.
 

MacMacandBarbie

Registered User
Dec 9, 2019
2,925
1,931
How insane is it, that a guy who scores 70 goals, is in the selke talk.
I for one am ready for the nominations come out and show Matthews isn't going to be a finalist so we can move on from this hyperbole. I have a feeling it is forever going to be a fan thrown in argument on these boards, however.
 
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Leafidelity

Existentially Drifting
Apr 6, 2008
38,246
8,644
Downtown Canada
I for one am ready for the nominations come out and show Matthews isn't going to be a finalist so we can move on from this hyperbole. I have a feeling it is forever going to be a fan thrown in argument on these boards, however.

3 players within 10 points of the assist lead, 1 player 14 ahead of everyone else in the league in goals. Seems painfully obvious he should be nominated at minimum.
 

Strangle

Leafs Smol PP
May 4, 2009
9,758
7,003
I did not say they have been outperforming the best players in the league.

League-wide scoring went up in 2017-2018 (first big jump). As you can see (other than one-off seasons), despite all of these guys LEAVING their peak/pime-aged years, their production increased along with league-wide scoring increases.

So these guys got older, yet produced better than in the few years before league-wide scoring increases. Coming from an Ovechkin fan: Ovechkin from 32-36 years old was nowhere near as good as he was in his late 20's, yet he had a jump in his point production, and completely maintained his goal production. Not because he was more talented, simply because league wide scoring increased and it became easier to score.

Crosby:
CrosbyAge82gp points
2014-152789
2015-162887
2016-172997
2017-183089
2018-1931104
2019-203294
2020-213392
2021-2234100
2022-233593

Ovechkin:
OvechkinAge82gp points
2014-152982
2015-163074
2016-173169
2017-183287
2018-193390
2019-203481
2020-213577
2021-223696

Malkin:
MalkinAge82gp points
2014-152883
2015-162983
2016-173095
2017-1831103
2018-193287
2019-2033110

Kane:
KaneAge82gp points
2013-142582
2014-152686
2015-1627106
2016-172889
2017-182976
2018-1930111
2019-203198
2020-213297
2021-223397

Stamkos:
StamkosAge82gp points
2014-152472
2015-162568
2016-172696
2017-182790
2018-192898
2019-202995
2020-213073
2021-2231107

Those aren’t real totals, those are prorated numbers

If you look at Crosby alone, his best years are always the ones in which he plays the most games.

Don’t try to be sneaky on this shit. Crosby didn’t score those point totals.

Have a look at his PPG, or his shooting percentage and I imagine you would find it fairly consistent

In fact, list all of their shooting percentages, did they suddenly go from 11-13% to an Auston Matthews 18-20% average?

That would support your argument that more shots were going in because of equipment changes.

The stats you provided are pretty useless

Crosby’s shooting percentage peaked early in his career and stamkos has been up and down like a yo-yo. They both peaked before the latest equipment changes, and stamkos had 1 big year of 19% but nothing else even close to his earlier years

Have a look at the other guys and correlate that
 

MacMacandBarbie

Registered User
Dec 9, 2019
2,925
1,931
3 players within 10 points of the assist lead, 1 player 14 ahead of everyone else in the league in goals. Seems painfully obvious he should be nominated at minimum.
It seems painfully obvious that Kucherov, MacK, and McDavid are going to be the nominations. I was talking about the Selke anyway. I fully expect you and the other 'Matthews for Hart and Selke' posters to be nowhere seen when he doesn't receive a nomination.
 

Leafidelity

Existentially Drifting
Apr 6, 2008
38,246
8,644
Downtown Canada
It seems painfully obvious that Kucherov, MacK, and McDavid are going to be the nominations. I was talking about the Selke anyway. I fully expect you and the other 'Matthews for Hart and Selke' posters to be nowhere seen when he doesn't receive a nomination.

I guess we'll have to see how much the league values secondary assists compared to goals
 

Joe n

Registered User
Aug 12, 2019
482
329
I for one am ready for the nominations come out and show Matthews isn't going to be a finalist so we can move on from this hyperbole. I have a feeling it is forever going to be a fan thrown in argument on these boards, however.
From what I've read people are saying he's in the conversation, not necessarily a finalist.
 

Strangle

Leafs Smol PP
May 4, 2009
9,758
7,003
Ngl this is pretty damn impressive. A 70 goal scoring selke finalist is something I don't think I've ever seen before. I can understand people saying he should be a hart finalist

How many ‘best of…..’ lists can someone make without Matthews showing up on them?

And is there another player who is even close to showing up on these lists as often as Matthews is?
 
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Peasy

Registered User
May 25, 2012
17,836
16,981
Star Shoppin
If someone else had 60+ goals right now then I don't think Matthews should get a hart nomination. But I find it difficult to argue the fact that he is 14 goals ahead of 2nd place doesnt deserve a nomination at least. He has 51 even strength goals this season. Reinhart has 55 goals total.
 

TheDoldrums

Registered User
May 3, 2016
13,062
20,348
Newcastle, Ontario


basically how I see it as well. If you completely ignore defense than it makes sense to not see Matthews as a finalist. Defense is a lot harder to quantify so it mostly gets ignored and I won't be surprised if voters do it as well. There is a real big difference between being a slightly below average defensive winger and a really good defensive centre though, I think it's crazy to ignore that. It is not a best offensive player award.
 

Strangle

Leafs Smol PP
May 4, 2009
9,758
7,003
If someone else had 60+ goals right now then I don't think Matthews should get a hart nomination. But I find it difficult to argue the fact that he is 14 goals ahead of 2nd place doesnt deserve a nomination at least. He has 51 even strength goals this season. Reinhart has 55 goals total.

Matthews needs to hit ‘em with 4 tonight just to rub it in everyone’s faces
 

authentic

Registered User
Jan 28, 2015
26,432
11,418
This is absolutely true. Talking heads just made up Crosby's defensive prowess in order to justify the fact that he was given Conn-Smythe over Kessel, and fans ate it up.

A bit inaccurate. A lot of it is systematic, and for more accurate results, you probably want to look at the relative stats instead.

And yes, those numbers look even better for Matthews. McDavid's, for example, are pretty inflated by his team's great systematic numbers. His SA/60 is actually below average for his team, but he's at 3rd overall on your list.

So the real numbers in this comparison actually favor Matthews even more, at least when it comes to defensive play. Especially MacKinnon feels pretty overrated defensively. Of these four forwards, it's true that Matthews is the best by a significant margin.

But the other three are better in terms of offensive contributions than Matthews(depending on how highly you value goals vs assists), and Matthews also hasn't been that great on power play.

Agreed I gathered those quickly from another post, there are tons of better stats but that just gives a quick summary without going too much deeper. Another thing though is I disagree that Matthews hasn't been that great on the powerplay when he's 4th in powerplay goals and only 3 away from 2nd, on a powerplay that has struggled overall and gets less opportunities than most teams. Either way there's not much debate he's the best two-way player in the world at this point, and to think nearly half this board has been mocking the idea that his defensive game is much to write home about.
 
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bucks_oil

Registered User
Aug 25, 2005
8,774
5,157
Goalie pads matter, but not as much as talent disparity
If I can put it another way, what are some of the era adjusting arguments to explain Gretzky and his multiple 200 point seasons and his record setting points and his 92 goal season?

What goalie equipment changes explains that massive leap? You have to be consistent, it can’t just be one era with an explaination. Why did Gretzky do so much better than his predecessors? Why did everyone? Fitness and nutrition? Stick technology? Goalie masks really did affect goalies seeing the puck?

TLDR: in my opinion, goalie equipment has constantly progressed since the 80's and every era of goalie has had advantages over the previous (yes even the guys now vs the Michelin men of the early 00's)

I'll take on the goalie argument.

A few relevant points of context:
  1. I'm 49 years old, which means I grew up wearing leather goalie pads and felt chest protectors (like what Mike Palmateer or Pete Peters would have started their career with).
  2. I played less in the late nineties and early 00's (my college sport was soccer... also a goalie), but enough to have a worn out a then-modern gigantic chest protector and the used (but still mostly leather) Heaton pads I used (like what Brodeur started with)... you were huge, but still couldn't move.
  3. Post grad school I picked up the sport with renewed interest, then playing low level beer league in the last of the >11" pads (circa 2005)
  4. I still play beer league, in fact I play more now than at any time in my life, wearing a full modern set of V9s and often playing against guys who once played Div1 and every few weeks even a recently retired pro (ECHL, and even some NHL/AHL tweeners)
  5. I'm still in ok shape for my age, but like any 49 year old, I'm nowhere near as agile, flexible or fit as I once was, eyes don't track the puck as well either...
None of that is meant as any sort of humble brag (in fact the opposite as you'll see), but as there probably fewer and fewer guys who played in the gear available in 1, 2, 3, above and are still playing in 4 above... any not too many years until all those pucks to the head cloud our judgement, my observations are as follows:

A) In my experience, (factoring out defensive structures which matter ALOT) the quality of the goaltending today vs yesteryears is 90% equipment. I know this because there is ZERO reason a (mostly soccer) goalie should be playing (and being invited back) with #5 above... I am a better goalie now than when I was 16 and the gear made the majority of that difference... EVERYTHING is just easier to do and you are far less likely pull (even a 49 year old groin) doing it.

B) The biggest jump in gear (performance wise) was from 2 to 3... everything got lighter, everything got bigger, pads began to rotate (for butterfly) and pro-fly pushes became possible... this happened during the careers of Brodeur and Roloson... it arguably prolonged their careers and at the end of that era you ended up with guys like Price who'd trained most of their life in it and guys like Quick whose speed and skating was enabled by it (despite being "too small" to excel in the #2 era).

C) The equipment (and therefore the goaltending) is better still today (#4) than it was with the larger pads pre-2006. How could that be? The equipment got smaller right?... Yeah it did, but as above, the emphasis on skating and sliding rather than a more static blocking style allowed guys like Quick and Price to outcompete the Garth Snows (or Devan Dubnyk's) of the world... sure there are plenty of huge goalies, but cowling-less skates allow goalies to crouch even closer to their butterfly and edge even better... meaning guys who are athletic and lighting quick (like Shesterkyn) can come out to cut angles (and appear bigger) and still make it back to the post when the play goes down low.

D) Yes scoring went up after the first lockout... yes the goalie equipment shrunk, but IMO the uptick in scoring had a lot more to do with less hooking/holding and elimination of the two-line pass. Goalies were still getting better as the equipment went from 2-3.
 

Nathaniel Skywalker

DIG IN!!! RiGHT NOW!!!
Oct 18, 2013
14,245
5,905
If matthews finishes with 72 with the hatty. Give him his hart. Kuch n mc can have the 100 assist milestone. While mack will just be shut out lol
 

Strangle

Leafs Smol PP
May 4, 2009
9,758
7,003
TLDR: in my opinion, goalie equipment has constantly progressed since the 80's and every era of goalie has had advantages over the previous (yes even the guys now vs the Michelin men of the early 00's)

I'll take on the goalie argument.

A few relevant points of context:
  1. I'm 49 years old, which means I grew up wearing leather goalie pads and felt chest protectors (like what Mike Palmateer or Pete Peters would have started their career with).
  2. I played less in the late nineties and early 00's (my college sport was soccer... also a goalie), but enough to have a worn out a then-modern gigantic chest protector and the used (but still mostly leather) Heaton pads I used (like what Brodeur started with)... you were huge, but still couldn't move.
  3. Post grad school I picked up the sport with renewed interest, then playing low level beer league in the last of the >11" pads (circa 2005)
  4. I still play beer league, in fact I play more now than at any time in my life, wearing a full modern set of V9s and often playing against guys who once played Div1 and every few weeks even a recently retired pro (ECHL, and even some NHL/AHL tweeners)
  5. I'm still in ok shape for my age, but like any 49 year old, I'm nowhere near as agile, flexible or fit as I once was, eyes don't track the puck as well either...
None of that is meant as any sort of humble brag (in fact the opposite as you'll see), but as there probably fewer and fewer guys who played in the gear available in 1, 2, 3, above and are still playing in 4 above... any not too many years until all those pucks to the head cloud our judgement, my observations are as follows:

A) In my experience, (factoring out defensive structures which matter ALOT) the quality of the goaltending today vs yesteryears is 90% equipment. I know this because there is ZERO reason a (mostly soccer) goalie should be playing (and being invited back) with #5 above... I am a better goalie now than when I was 16 and the gear made the majority of that difference... EVERYTHING is just easier to do and you are far less likely pull (even a 49 year old groin) doing it.

B) The biggest jump in gear (performance wise) was from 2 to 3... everything got lighter, everything got bigger, pads began to rotate (for butterfly) and pro-fly pushes became possible... this happened during the careers of Brodeur and Roloson... it arguably prolonged their careers and at the end of that era you ended up with guys like Price who'd trained most of their life in it and guys like Quick whose speed and skating was enabled by it (despite being "too small" to excel in the #2 era).

C) The equipment (and therefore the goaltending) is better still today (#4) than it was with the larger pads pre-2006. How could that be? The equipment got smaller right?... Yeah it did, but as above, the emphasis on skating and sliding rather than a more static blocking style allowed guys like Quick and Price to outcompete the Garth Snows (or Devan Dubnyk's) of the world... sure there are plenty of huge goalies, but cowling-less skates allow goalies to crouch even closer to their butterfly and edge even better... meaning guys who are athletic and lighting quick (like Shesterkyn) can come out to cut angles (and appear bigger) and still make it back to the post when the play goes down low.

D) Yes scoring went up after the first lockout... yes the goalie equipment shrunk, but IMO the uptick in scoring had a lot more to do with less hooking/holding and elimination of the two-line pass. Goalies were still getting better as the equipment went from 2-3.

Bro, did you just TLDR my two paragraphs and then wrote your own book?

Oh wait … maybe you were TLDR’ing yourself?

Anyways I read it, nice post
 

MacMacandBarbie

Registered User
Dec 9, 2019
2,925
1,931
From what I've read people are saying he's in the conversation, not necessarily a finalist.
Wouldn’t you have to be a finalist to be in the conversation to win it? This is like saying Panarin or Pasta is in conversation for the Hart because they are big name players with large fanbases.
 

MacMacandBarbie

Registered User
Dec 9, 2019
2,925
1,931
Either way there's not much debate he's the best two-way player in the world at this point
If you think Matthews has a better two way game than Barkov you are even more out of touch with what the majority of people think than I thought. You really need to get out of your echo chamber.
 

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