ATD2025 Draft Thread

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2way horse with speed. He had grit too. Gets an unfair rap again because of Smythe. Has got all the Harts and the Arts and the Cups. Best Toronto team ever?
Not sure he was 2way. Convince me.
The knock on Apps' defensive play up to this point in the ATD has been twofold:
- a lack of direct quotes about him checking other players
- Hap Day using defensively oriented wingers with him.

In the case of the second one, there's a guy who will be drafted as a second line centre in this thing who has a lot in common with Apps - big, played a beautiful game with the puck - and the most famous line he played on looks a lot like Apps' most famous pair of wingers. You have a a sniper on the right side who's famously slow and lazy (one of these guys will be drafted soon, the other is probably PP depth for later on), and a guy on the left side who's as purely defensive a player you could possibly find on a cup-winning first line (one of these guys will anchor a very good third line here, the other likely won't be drafted).

What's interesting is that the big beautiful centre I'm talking about who isn't Apps gets a lot of praise for his defensive game, particularly his defensive play in the time he played on this exact line. I'd go so far as to say the main difference between how these deployment decisions is the amount of narrative-building we have available from the media in the 40s, vs. the time this other guy played.
 
Apps has been a Leafs great discounted often for playing his best during the world war years.

He ain't alone.

Imo he is top-100 talent but at the tail end, all things considered. He has NOT had by any means an Yzerman or Trottier career.

How so? When he left for WWII he was coming out of 5 straight Top 2-3 Hart finishes. He has the playoff pedigree. He had a great reputation. What does he lacks that they have, other than a full prime which was cut short by a world war?
 
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I feel like we say this every year, but there is some great competition this year. A lot of teams are looking very, very solid. Still early of course, but a lot of GM's seem to have brought their A game this year at least in the early going. Love to see it.

Haha, alright, I'll see what I can do.

Quebec HC selects Andy Bathgate, RW

@Hitru and @Professor What are on the clock

Bathgate is such great value at this point. Love what he brings.
 
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How so? When he left for WWII he was coming out of 5 straight Top 2-3 Hart finishes. He has the playoff pedigree. He had a great reputation. What does he lacks that they have, other than a full prime which was cut short by a world war?
Apps left LATE to join the war effort, after 3 great years for him into the WWII years.

His last great year he won the Byng and was a Hart finalist for yet another war year and that same year's postseason he had his greatest playoffs ever, winning the Stanley Cup Finals against the top NHL playoff scorer Don Grosso, his teammate Carl Liscombe who was 2nd in scoring, and Red Wings finals goalie Johnny Mowers!

One has to discount the war years somewhat.
 
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Haha, alright, I'll see what I can do.

Quebec HC selects Andy Bathgate, RW

@Hitru and @Professor What are on the clock

EDIT: PM sent to @Professor What , but I got an error message when trying to include @Hitru

That was one of the guys we were looking at. That's a really good pick.

So, we'll go with the other guy we were targeting, and pick Frank Mahovlich.

mahovlichFrankTOR12-e1456541167420.jpg
 
Great pick and value here. It was down to Gadsby and Keith for my last pick. Keith has the Conn Smythe and 2 Norris Trophies which was hard to pass up on. But I like Gadsby just a tad bit more, especially for what I was looking for. But this is a real solid pick here.
Funny enough, I had Gadsby in the queue before you took him. :laugh:
 
Forgot to comment on this, but Syl Apps Sr was incredible value.

I'm not saying this is my position, but there's an argument to rank him over even Sakic and Yzerman. His career is lost in the smog of the WWII era and all that but he is a legit #1 center even in a draft this size.

For some reason it seems like he is considered an "unsexy" pick in the ATD.
Yeah- I was thinking about that earlier. Best I can come up with is that it's sort of an 'ATD-Meta' thing. If a GM already has an 'elegant' Center, selecting Apps as the #2C is limiting, since the next 'non-elegant' C-type that they'd take (and still be above the ATD water-line) is by that time a pretty small subset- which can go and go quickly when the bell rings.

Conversely, if a GM takes Apps with the idea of him being the #1C, then it's probably not best to use an 'elegant' C on the 2nd line, 'cause it paints you into the same corner, only with even less talent in the bank.

Apps' current ATD teammate C is Trottier, so it looks all right from here.

Other random Apps thoughts-
1) not sure if ATD polls take durability and injury propensity into sufficient consideration, but (for those who do), Apps did miss a bit of time.

2) Apps had a short-ish career- but I don't hold that against him. He probably earned more money in his first year at Simpsons than he did in any year that he played for Toronto.
 
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Yeah- I was thinking about that earlier. Best I can come up with is that it's sort of an 'ATD-Meta' thing. If a GM already has an 'elegant' Center, selecting Apps as the #2C is limiting, since the next 'non-elegant' C-type that they'd take (and still be above the ATD water-line) is by that time a pretty small subset- which can go and go quickly when the bell rings.

Conversely, if a GM takes Apps with the idea of him being the #1C, then it's probably not best to use an 'elegant' C on the 2nd line, 'cause it paints you into the same corner, only with even less talent in the bank.

Apps' current ATD teammate C is Trottier, so it looks all right from here.

Other random Apps thoughts-
1) not sure if ATD polls take durability and injury propensity into sufficient consideration, but (for those who do), Apps did miss a bit of time.

2) Apps had a short-ish career- but I don't hold that against him. He probably earned more money in his first year at Simpsons than he did in any year that he played for Toronto.

Good points.

I guess he suffers a similar fate than the myriad of offensive centers that are either undrafted and reduced to a spare, because they don't fit on 3rd or 4th lines but aren't good enough for Top 6 duties, except in his case he just falls through the ranks.

If a team can find a composition that maximizes Apps on a 2nd line, it might be a draft-winning move.
 
Good points.

I guess he suffers a similar fate than the myriad of offensive centers that are either undrafted and reduced to a spare, because they don't fit on 3rd or 4th lines but aren't good enough for Top 6 duties, except in his case he just falls through the ranks.

If a team can find a composition that maximizes Apps on a 2nd line, it might be a draft-winning move.
Or some French media talking about his D.. typing this as I sit in the coffeeshop at the site of the Victoria Skating Rink. Had to stop here after the Habs game. Staring at what is left of the Windsor Hotel.
 
Another thing on the defensive value of Apps, or any other centres.

Some centres, most famously Wayne Gretzky, had a famous linemate who "played the centre's defensive role", and there are two ways you could interpret this:
- centres should be the best defensive player on their line, and if a centre's defensive value is low enough, you need someone to fill the gaps and bring up the line overall. (I think this one's wrong, but unfortunately common in the ATD)
- centres have a specific set of defensive tasks that they're usually responsible for (marking the opposing centre, being the second guy into corner battles while the weak side D protects the house), and that if it benefits a Gretzky to play up high like a winger, then someone else has to do that.

Given where I stand on those two interpretations, finding a defensive winger for most centres who played at any time period where the centre had this role, is only important if you can prove this player was specifically used that way. If you have a centre who was simply subpar defensively - soft in corner battles, tended to forget where his man was, didn't move his feet - then you just play him with normal wingers and eat the weakness. Find another centre to take the important faceoffs, because putting Jari Kurri on his wing is not going to help you much here. In the case of a player like Apps where there just isn't much about his defense, it seems more likely to me that he carried out the duties of his position in an adequate fashion.

Now, the trickier question is when "the duties of the centre" took shape. I know Frank Boucher, who preceded and overlapped with Apps, was quite influential in the position. Then there's the offensive zone forward pass, which arrived in its current form partway through Boucher's career but 7 years ahead of Apps, plenty of time for people to figure out how to play against it. Maybe an even more important part of the puzzle is the development of the "point man" role, where players like the Bentley brothers would create offense from high in the zone (impossible without the forward pass), which I'd expect necessitated further division of labour and possibly laid the foundations for the modern role of "defensive winger" - the point pressure and counterattack type, as opposed to a substitute centre like Kurri. The Bentleys are several years behind Apps but overlapped for 7 years.

So if we thought the reality Gretzky and Kurri operated in took shape late in the Bentley's career, then what do we do with Apps? Is he not expected to play "the role of centre", or did he fulfill his own duties well enough (pending research from tinyzombies) to be a basically average centre who hands off some of the harder shifts to Trottier?
 
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I am now standing on the site of the former Mount Royal Arena in Montreal (looking for a salad, it’s now a grocery store), where the 1924 Stanley Cup winning goal was scored by Howie Morenz. But they did not lift the Cup in this building. Can you answer why.
 

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