ATD Chat Thread XX

[tinyzombies]

I always find it interesting that so many people feel the NHL got good at precisely the moment Lemieux entered his prime. It is an argument that is easy to shoot full of holes in a bunch of ways, but people keep trying it for some reason.

Bowman said only 8 teams played systems so yes it’s true. Toe Blake had systems too. Gretzky was playing against robots who stayed in their lane and backed up to the net and goaltending was terrible - Gretzky himself says this.

The thing that proves Gretzky belongs at the top is he did it on different eras and with different teams, with less support in LA. But teams started to at least play the trap by that point. That didn’t phase Lemieux in the least

The same way Price is the best to ever do it. His peers said so, his GSAA is way above the runnerup Rask. And these are by FAR the best goalies to ever play. Price is the best of them. There are many good ones now who are maybe close to him (who knows, Price never played on a dominant team), but Price is still the best. And this is ACCORDING TO THE PLAYERS and the advanced stats (GSAA).

Hasek might have been flashier, but Price was also pretty flashy but was also quiet at the same time.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Gretzky and Lemieux are 4 years apart... and the idea that teams trapping didn't phase Lemieux at all is like.. totally false. He literally quit the league because of it. Like c'mon.. this is an absurd argument to make on the history board and especially here on the ATD board.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Hockey-reference has Price 26th all time in career GSAA, and behind Luongo, Lundqvist, Rask, Thomas and Rinne among his peers, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. I wouldn't call that an advanced stat anyway, any more so than like, goals per game, for what that's worth.
Weird legacy one way or another. I'm absolutely convinced he's the most talented goalie of his generation and most others too, but there's so relatively little to grab onto when it comes to what we've always used to make simple superficial comparisons between goalies - you know wins, saves, all that. I don't believe that result in GSAA reflects his actual greatness at all.

 

[tinyzombies]

Gretzky and Lemieux are 4 years apart... and the idea that teams trapping didn't phase Lemieux at all is like.. totally false. He literally quit the league because of it. Like c'mon.. this is an absurd argument to make on the history board and especially here on the ATD board.

He quit the league because of his health. He thought the trap was ludicrous tho, which it was.

Hockey-reference has Price 26th all time in career GSAA, and behind Luongo, Lundqvist, Rask, Thomas and Rinne among his peers, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. I wouldn't call that an advanced stat anyway, any more so than like, goals per game, for what that's worth.
Weird legacy one way or another. I'm absolutely convinced he's the most talented goalie of his generation and most others too, but there's so relatively little to grab onto when it comes to what we've always used to make simple superficial comparisons between goalies - you know wins, saves, all that. I don't believe that result in GSAA reflects his actual greatness at all.

Expected Goals. No weird legacy at all to those that watched him play, not to mention the players who consistently voted him the best.

 

[BraveCanadian]

He quit the league because of his health. He thought the trap was ludicrous tho, which it was.

Technically he quit because of health.. and because he didn't like playing in the increasingly physical league that didn't prioritize skill. I don't know why you'd try to debate this it is well known. A diminished Gretzky soldiered on.. so yes, the dead puck absolutely "phased" Lemieux.

Expected Goals. No weird legacy at all to those that watched him play, not to mention the players who consistently voted him the best.

Price was great but I agree with @jigglysquishy he doesn't have much to latch on to as the best and his legacy will probably fade quite a bit everywhere but Montreal. Even for GSAA, charts like the above cut off the best seasons for Luongo and he obviously has better longevity so that one is a bit cherry picked.

 

[tinyzombies]

Technically he quit because of health.. and because he didn't like playing in the increasingly physical league that didn't prioritize skill. I don't know why you'd try to debate this it is well known. A diminished Gretzky soldiered on.. so yes, the dead puck absolutely "phased" Lemieux.



Price was great but I agree with @jigglysquishy he doesn't have much to latch on to as the best and his legacy will probably fade quite a bit everywhere but Montreal. Even for GSAA, charts like the above cut off the best seasons for Luongo and he obviously has better longevity so that one is a bit cherry picked.

Literally, not technically. It was health, period.

Legacy is for non-fans and to measure careers - that's not the true worth of a player. Real fans know. But this is a new generation of goalies so the gap will close I'm sure. There are great new goalies all the time now.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Literally, not technically. It was health, period.

Legacy is for non-fans and to measure careers - that's not the true worth of a player. Real fans know. But this is a new generation of goalies so the gap will close I'm sure. There are great new goalies all the time now.

I was being generous..

With little fanfare and less regret, Mario Lemieux made it
official last Saturday at the Dapper Dan charity dinner at the
Pittsburgh Hilton. This would be his final season. He was
kissing it all goodbye: the clutching and grabbing, the pain,
the aggravation, the glory and the scoring titles.

...

"He loves the game, but he has other loves in his life too,"
says Pittsburgh coach and general manager Craig Patrick. "He's
probably the healthiest I've seen him in the seven years I've
been here. But when Mario was unhealthy, he realized what was
important in life. He's been severely tested on a number of
fronts, and he doesn't want to find himself saying, 'I wish I'd
spent more time with my family.'"

....

Baldwin and Lemieux were then invited to New
York to talk to Brian Burke, the NHL director of operations, and
commissioner Gary Bettman about Lemieux's concerns over league
officiating. "I talked about all the clutching and grabbing, how
it was taking away from the great players in the league,"
Lemieux says. "It's to the point where it's not hockey anymore.
It's like football on skates. The best teams win in basketball
because the players can run up the court without carrying two
guys on their backs. Not so in hockey. That's why there are so
many teams with mediocre records. [Opposing players] grab you
whether you have the puck or not. It's the worst it's been since
I've been in the league. [Burke and Bettman] agreed. They always
agree when you're there. It's very, very aggravating. You keep
getting promises, and they aren't kept."

....

When Lemieux is asked if he would reconsider retirement if the NHL assured him that next
season the refs would enforce the rules as written, he shakes
his head and smiles ruefully. "They've fooled me once," he says.
"They're not going to fool me twice."

NO REGRETS MARIO LEMIEUX HAS DECIDED TO END HIS BRILLIANT NHL CAREER, AND FOR HIM--BUT NOT FOR THE PENGUINS--HIS RETIREMENT IS COMING NOT A MOMENT TOO SOON

With little fanfare and less regret, Mario Lemieux made itofficial last Saturday at the Dapper Dan charity dinner at thePittsburgh Hilton. This would be his

vault.si.com

 

[Hobnobs]

Gretzky and Lemieux are 4 years apart... and the idea that teams trapping didn't phase Lemieux at all is like.. totally false. He literally quit the league because of it. Like c'mon.. this is an absurd argument to make on the history board and especially here on the ATD board.

He literally quit in the middle of a playoff series because of it.

 

[sr edler]

Is there any other notable players who's lives were cut short while there career was still going?

Scotty Davidson, Hobey Baker

Hobey Baker was retired from hockey (and sports) when he died, not because of the war but because he had gone into business, much like Frank McGee. Last played competitive league hockey in New York in early 1916, two and a half years+ prior to his passing, though he played an exhibition game with an all-star team in his hometown of Philly in March 1917, which is still one and a half years+ prior to his death.

Looking for a decent picture of coach pete green

 

[Leaf Lander]

Hobey Baker was retired from hockey (and sports) when he died, not because of the war but because he had gone into business, much like Frank McGee. Last played competitive league hockey in New York in early 1916, two and a half years+ prior to his passing, though he played an exhibition game with an all-star team in his hometown of Philly in March 1917, which is still one and a half years+ prior to his death.

shoot cant se the pic of coach Green

 

[Leaf Lander]

Got the pic thanks

 

[Leaf Lander]

Does woman's hockey have enough to do a top 50 -100 list all time ?

What do you think
Thread worthy?

 

[VanIslander]

Top 5 i could easily do.

The ol' GOAT. The next gen GOAT.

Breaking your arm or leg and playing through it for the Olympics? Getting invited to an NHL training camp as a forward in Boston or goaltender in Tampa or (i dunno any more, am off the top of my head).

I haven't seen a single bit of women's hockey since 2008, but i'd pine for 4 worthy of tattoos on my body.

Top 10 we should do!

Rules:

Induct at least:

1 goalie
2 on defense
3 forwards
1 coach
3 from anywhere
+ one or more builders (this doesn't take up a draft spot, but informs the excellence).

I could learn a lot from this. 6 to 8 names i'd want. I could dig and choose between more. I'm pretty blank recently. This would be a useful exercise.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Does woman's hockey have enough to do a top 50 -100 list all time ?

What do you think
Thread worthy?

Absolutely. Top 100 is too much but we could shoot for a top 40 or top 50.

I was able to put together a top 25 without too much work.

 

[VanIslander]

Check that: only three names would i tattoo on my body in 2008 (3 of 4 you know if you know).

Since then i haven't a clue (live overseas, any kind of hockey is hard to find, doesn't come to you; heck, i... i... know more curling skips in the last decade!

But... women's hockey... from back in the day... check this out...



It used to be must-see TV when Canada vs. USA. Then phones became smarter... options became infinitely greater... the diffusion of attention, the fragmentation of markets, pushing very few sizzling events up (the Super Bowl; the World Cup), most sports trying to get eyeballs less globally...

 

[Professor What]

I'd need some conversation to get a list put together, but I hope that since others are now talking about it means we're going to get something going.

 

[Leaf Lander]

Where should we start the thread here in the atd or history of hockey?

 

[Professor What]

Where should we start the thread here in the atd or history of hockey?

When I was trying to get things organized, I posted the threads on the main HOH board but also put out feelers on the ATD board. Maybe now that the ATD is winding down it'll get more attention.

 

[The Macho King]

Kucherov officially has the #1, #2, and #4 most assists in a season by a RW. That ends up being #1, #2, and #5 overall for wingers.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Kucherov going toe to toe with a 26 year old McDavid should not be slept on as an accomplishment. Just when you thought McD had caught the leaders, Kuch says:

 

[ImporterExporter]

 

[BraveCanadian]

All three of these guys in the Art Ross race are having huge seasons. McDavid finally caught up and then Kucherov puts up 6 points in two games.

 

[VanIslander]

Kris Letang is having himself a season.
An NHL record season 5 assists in a period, the defenseman leads his team in hits in his 18th season, AFTER already winning the Masterton. Just stop! Drafted deservedly 314th in this year's ATD.


Note: Despite the boos of the Isles in their terrible loss, the NYI have more wins than the Pens this season (to date).

 

[Habsfan18]

This is a neat collectible that was issued in 1991. It included both a 48-page book and stack of 45 replica cards from the 1911 c-55 set. I believe these were printed as a limited run. These little cards are great. Click to zoom/improve quality.

 

[VanIslander]

i learned in my 30s that i was forced to use my right hand in elementary school when i was left handed. No wonder i was often criticized for messy handwriting! Thus tah-dah: my M.A. grad prof said: "You have the 2nd worst handwriting I've ever seen.... (*pause*) ... no,... the worst." Quote unquote. Those brain cells never die. (Thereafter he thanked me in the forward of the last book he published - in informal logic, i a grad student of his back in the early '90's).

I remain a right-drawing early-lefty:
I teach kindy and elementary every day...
"It's a dog!" "It's a dinosaur!" 'It's a cat!"

I was honestly trying to draw a horse. (Grade 1 "h" spelling... ahhhh).

Teaching is never boring and eternally occasionally frustrating (some days perfect, but not "always"; eternally because as you push on, better days lay ahead).