I have to run so I don't have a lot of time, but wanted to comment on a couple things, most of which are more general statements about comparing players and may or may not be relevant to the Kuch/Kane/Bath debate:
I strongly disagree with the bolded if we're talking about modern players. I consider 10 years as a typical/average prime for a modern guy, so anything past that shows a longevity. Obviously the whole thing is a lot more nuanced than this, but for modern guys I'd say more like their best 15ish years should be seriously looked at. I will say that the importance/weight goes down after best 10 years, but definitely should be considered.
This whole mentioning the past age X thing can be confusing and misleading. What really matters are no. of significant/impactful/prime years, it doesn't matter what age you have them. A guy who doesn't make the NHL until he's 22 and is a star player until he's 32 is no different than a guy who is a star player from ages 20 - 30. Relating to this specific example, Kucherov has 9 good to great seasons under his belt, while Kane probably has 13 or 14 depending on how you want to treat the Kane at Center experiment (you probably could even add a half season for this year).
In reference to your comment about past age 30, Kane was a 3rd Team AS and 8th in league scoring on a bad team at age 31 (40% more points than his next teammate and 83% of the 3rd place guy). Respectfully, if you don't consider that as something worth considering when evaluating a player your standards are way too high.
The reality is most players don't have significant bullet points within a resume that extend past 10 seasons.
Modern peak for me is 7 years. With that in mind, considering this seasons, Kucherov has as good or better regular season peak than either of the 2 men we're discussing. As good or better as in scoring, awards, whatever.
Longevity extends beyond that point. It certainly can include important benchmarks past 10 years. I've never said that things beyond a 10 year window should be excluded, just that I think too many seasons are being given credit on an all time scale, that simply don't belong. I don't expect everyone to agree, but that's where I've been for a long while.
The last real significant season on Kane's resume is aged 30. That's just my opinion.
2nd team AS at RW
8th place Hart
110 points ranked 3rd in NHL
Those are significant achievements in any era.
The next few years where he hung around the 2nd/3rd tier of good/great players, and finished a little lower in AS voting, a little lower in scoring, much lower in Hart shares, aren't moving the needle much in my eyes. Not on an all time scale.
Those next few seasons after his aged 30, were certainly good (not great) from a statistical standpoint. But those were bad Chicago teams. The points he scored feel empty in a vacuum and put out into the masses.
Sure, he had a 3rd team AS designation in 2019-20. He finished behind Pasta and Kuch. Kane had 260 total votes. The next guy, was Mark Stone with 14. That's falling off a cliff in terms of peer competition.
Kane is not impacting the game away from the puck. Also, no playoffs = no chance to strut the clutch dance we saw so often prior to the collapse. I don't blame Kane for Chicago falling apart but him being a great player in the sense of the word great, started declining rapidly, post age 30.
Karlsson just won a Norris because he was the first Dman in a long time to score 100 points. Didn't matter he was -20something, on one of the worst teams. People essentially focused on 1 stat and said "winner", "best".
Nah.
I've long been on record saying I think the HOF elects far too many players. The standard in hockey for judging greatness has already been lowered to a point of near absurdity. Gordie Howe and Bobby Orr and Martin Broduer sharing the same halls as Cl;ark Gillies, Leo Boivin and Mike Vernon is absurd. It's not just hockey, but I digress.
Again, I think Bathgate has the best regular season longevity out of the 3. I can see an argument for Kane over Kucherov, though the gap, even if I end up at that landing spot, the gap is minimal.
Aged 30, Kucherov is currently leading the league in scoring over a prime McDavid, a prime MacKinnon, Matthews, Pasta, etc. Outside of the first 2 names, his lead is significant. He should breeze past the all time mark for assists by a winger (which he'll just improve on) in a single season. His finish in the Hart, Ross, AS tier, will exceed that of both Kane and Bathgate's aged 30 campaigns.
Yes Kane got hotter at an earlier age than Kuch but one has to remember there was a lull in Kane's impact after that age 21 season. He didn't carry a 1st/2nd team AS caliber game from 21 through 30 every single year. There were some leaner journeys within (regular season).
Look at Kuch.
4 straight AS seasons, including a Hart/Ross year, aged 23-26.
Misses an entire year in 2020-21 (age 27).
Comes back after the long layoff, plays a little over half the year in 2021-22 and scores 69 points in in 47 games. 1.47 PPG. The only one higher? McDavid at 1.54.
113 points last year (3rd overall)
122 and counting this year (1st overall)
From 2016-17 (Kuch's first AS season) through today, only McDavid (1.55) has a higher PPG than Kucherov at 1.40.
Kuch has never finished below AS-8 since his 2nd seasons (age 21). That's 8 straight years, not counting this one, where he'll obviously make it 9.
Has Kane done that? No. Age 22, 23, 29 don't qualify. 23/29 especially.
Has Bathgate done that? Maybe? His entire career worthy of mentioning is 1955-56 through 63-64. 9 years. He finished top 10 in scoring all 9 years but the AS recognition doesn't match the scoring finishes. The Hart shares (4, maybe 5 meaningful years) are marginally better than the other 2 but Kuch will close the gap with this year about to wrap up.
The Hart shares is probably why I still give Bathgate a small edge in regular season longevity.
Coupled with where these guys were finishing in AS voting, Hart voting, scoring races, shows me a significant, sustained performance, greater than that of either Kane or Bathgate over the roughly the same timeline during their respective careers.
Kane - 2009-10 through 2018-19
(his greatness is shuffled more, with a lag in production in aged 22, 23, 25, 29 seasons, AS nods at 21, 27, 28. 30)
Bathgate - 1955-56 through 1963-64
(had 4 great seasons in a row aged 23-26 with Hart voting of 1, 2, 3, 8, then a pair of good but not great years, followed by 3 closer to great years from age 29-31. So 7 years over the course of his career I would consider worthy of talking about on an all time scale.
Bathgate would rank higher if he had been on a better team, no doubt in my mind. He's robbed of playoff prestige via circumstance. Never really got the chance, though when he did, wasn't exactly impressive. That's his black mark. A great regular season player, who was probably better than people gave/give him credit for. But you can't escape the zero in the playoffs. Especially when you're up against playoff studs like Kane and Kuch.
Kane would rank higher if Chicago had managed their cap and roster better IMO. His career declined rapidly as he got into his 30's. He's not sitting alone in that camp.
How I see it:
Regular season peak
1. Kuch (counting this year as it stands now)
2. Bathgate
3. Kane
Regular season longevity:
1. Bathgate
2. Kuch
3. Kane
Playoff peak:
1. Kuch
2. Kane
3. Bathgate
Playoff longevity:
1. Kuch
2. Kane
I think this year has pushed Kucherov to the point where I have him over both Bathgate/Kane based on him taking 3 of the 4 categories above. I don't see any debate on playoff peak/longevity. Maybe some take Bathgate in regular season peak, but even if you do, the gap between he and Kucherov as postseason players is so massive it makes up for whatever small edge some might give Bathgate as a regular season player. And Kucherov has not only kept pace but bested a prime McDavid as a scorer over an entire year (smoked peopel in 18-19) along with numerous other stars. And now we're seeing it happen again, though the finish will be closer and TBD certainly. And lastly, Kuch's Lightning haven't yet been knocked out of that contender field. Still going strong 9 years later.
The better comparison is Bathgate vs Kane and seeing who comes out on top. In my eyes anyway.
... Comparing top year, top-2 seasons or top-7 seasons!
