ATD 2021 Draft Thread III

[ImporterExporter]

IE: nail on nose.

You make the salient points and you ask the right question.

(This ain't the MLD.)

I'm just making sure we're being consistent with giving value to players. It's one of the reasons I dig so hard on bio's. The more we know, the more we can accurately gauge what a player was worth then, in real life, and here in the ATD. Looking back at old threads, there are so many instances of very generalized values being handed out. Now, some of that is simply based on not having that much info. It's hard to pinpoint a value if you have a few blurbs from LOH or similar sites.

I'm all for expanding the realm of value, where warranted. I just want to ensure if we're going to go down the road, of saying a 2014/15ish season in the KHL is worth something (even if just a smidgen) then Bower having a Vezina like season in the AHL and winning a Calder Cup (things he did) in the 06 era, would then need to be investigated as well. Same thing for the WHL and big seasons there (Bobby Hull for example).

If anyone's intersted you can read about Bower's Hall of Fame AHL career here. Now that I think of it, I want to see how many players are both AHL and NHL HOF'ers.

Johnny Bower – AHL Hall of Fame

 

[ImporterExporter]

He's a 3rd line scorer, not on the PP.

Only Patrick Kane and Connor McDavid have scored more ES points than Panarin since he came into the league.

That's passable I think. Especially if you have the right folks with him.

 

[VanIslander]

Dreakmur, last spring you thought our McDavid pick unacceptable.

 

[Dreakmur]

That's passable I think. Especially if you have the right folks with him.

Even if you say Panarin gets just 35 for his KHL season, his 7 season vs.x is over 70.

 

[VanIslander]

Put Panarin on your BENCH as an all-time great top-6 injury or suspension sub and all is good!

 

[Dreakmur]

Dreakmur, last spring you thought our McDavid pick unacceptable.

Last year, McDavid had 3 and a half healthy seasons under his belt, which included 1 mediocre play-off appearance.

Even now, with 5 seasons under his belt, his 7 season vs. X is just 67.4. That's not the only metric, obviously, but that's where I always start.

 

[ImporterExporter]

So would anyone object to giving Bower some credit for being, arguably the greatest goalie in AHL history, in an era where the AHL actually had legitimate talent year in and year out?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So would anyone object to giving Bower some credit for being, arguably the greatest goalie in AHL history, in an era where the AHL actually had legitimate talent year in and year out?

I consider his AHL career. It's why I no longer consider him overrated where he is always picked

 

[Dreakmur]

So would anyone object to giving Bower some credit for being, arguably the greatest goalie in AHL history, in an era where the AHL actually had legitimate talent year in and year out?

I’ve had Bower twice before, and I’ve argued that his AHL career should count as “longevity” years.

 

[Professor What]

So would anyone object to giving Bower some credit for being, arguably the greatest goalie in AHL history, in an era where the AHL actually had legitimate talent year in and year out?

I'm not convinced that you can get a full read on Bower without the AHL years. Now, how much does it count for? I'm not about to pretend to know that, and I think it's very muddy water. I found him very hard to rank in our top 200 players project for that reason, and even now that he's been placed, I'm still not entirely sure what I think.

 

[VanIslander]

Let me repeat a drum beat that hit deaf ears years ago:

Johnny Bower's AHL career is like the Soviets, Czechoslovakians, top WHAs....

He is the friggin' best AHL goalie ever in an era where the NHL was NOT a better option (no Iron Curtain Soviet rule or better paid WHA) but an equally paid league.

My goalie list for the HOH project had to be "re-worked" because I listed Bower 7th all time. I said f that.

Yeah, a pet peeve.

(And i am a documented card-carrying Leaf hater on this board!!!)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I’ve had Bower twice before, and I’ve argued that his AHL career should count as “longevity” years.

That's a good way to put it. His longevity kind of sucks without the AHL years. They help sure up what would otherwise be a weakness

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Let me repeat a drum beat that hit deaf ears years ago:

Johnny Bower's AHL career is like the Soviets, Czechoslovakians, top WHAs....

He is the friggin' best AHL goalie ever in an era where the NHL was NOT a better option (no Iron Curtain Soviet rule or better paid WHA) but an equally paid league.

My goalie list for the HOH project had to be "re-worked" because I listed Bower 7th all time. I said f that.

Yeah, a pet peeve.

(And i am a documented card-carrying Leaf hater on this board!!!)

I doubt you would have been asked to "rework" your list just for having a single player too high. It's a long time ago though, so I barely remember.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I consider his AHL career. It's why I no longer consider him overrated where he is always picked

Good deal!

I wasn't under the impression he was being picked in an overrated area. I mean he's generally thought of 15-20 all time, in an aggregate sense. I'd have to look back at previous drafts, but not sure he's ever been drafted higher/lower than that range. At least not as long as I've been doing this.

I’ve had Bower twice before, and I’ve argued that his AHL career should count as “longevity” years.

And a good day to you sir!

 

[VanIslander]

Gee, he "only" backstopped 4 (FOUR - a dynasty) Stanley Cup teams in the NHL.

Yeah, that explains why he is so much more valued than Fuhr and Smith.
(Sarcasm not lost, hopefully)

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Chicago selects Edgar Laprade, C

 

[DitchMarner]

If you want an explosive offensive threat on the 4th line, this is a good pick. He’s probably the worst defensive player who will be taken in this draft.

Are Gretzky, Lemieux and Ovie really any better defensively?

McDavid wasn't bad defensively early on. The Oilers basically have him play all-out offense now because no one else on the team can score except RNH.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Gee, he "only" backstopped 4 (FOUR - a dynasty) Stanley Cup teams in the NHL.

Yeah, that explains why he is so much more valued than Fuhr and Smith.
(Sarcasm not lost, hopefully)

After the top 200 project and factoring what I think should be of some value, the storied AHL career, there's absolutely no way he's behind Holecek for example. The AHL in the 50's was absolutely on the Czech level talent wise, certainly from a depth standpoint. And Bower is at the very least in the conversation for greatest goalie ever in the AHL (i'd be very surprised if there was someone better) + has the stellar postseason record in the NHL. Doesn't have a shabby Hart record either. And he was still playing at a SC winning level post 40.

I would agree, Fuhr and Smith are a full tier below Bower.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Chicago selects Edgar Laprade, C

I've had him on the want to draft list every year, and can never manage to snag him. Intriguing player.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Are Gretzky, Lemieux and Ovie really any better defensively?

McDavid wasn't bad defensively early on. The Oilers basically have him play all-out offense now because no one else on the team can score except RNH.

Maybe.
Ovechkin's the sort of winger who's fairly one-dimensional but fills a specific role for his team that he's so good at that it cancels out most of what he's not good at. Gretzky and Lemieux, like McDavid, are guys who played a more demanding postion and whose teams worked around their deficiencies by having them play more of a striker role. The chief differences that come to mind are that Gretzky and Lemieux were both noted shorthanded counterattack threats, that people have talked a lot about Gretzky's penchant for stealing the puck, and that McDavid plays in an era where we have more statistical tools to measure the amount he may or may not cause his team to get scored on and/or outplayed in his own end.

I got rid of a player in your post who's undrafted and could defensibly go soon. Not sure how much we can avoid talking about him here.

 

[Dreakmur]

Are Gretzky, Lemieux and Ovie really any better defensively?

McDavid wasn't bad defensively early on. The Oilers basically have him play all-out offense now because no one else on the team can score except RNH.

I can't think of anyone who's even close right now. He's been bottom 10% of the league for defensive play the last few years. Even at their worst, Gretzky/Lemieux/Ovechkin were never among the absolute worst in the league.

 

[Professor What]

Are Gretzky, Lemieux and Ovie really any better defensively?

McDavid wasn't bad defensively early on. The Oilers basically have him play all-out offense now because no one else on the team can score except RNH.

Besides that, if you've got a player that is potent enough offensively, do you really want them sacrificing that? I watched game one of the 1988 Stanley Cup Finals the other night, and one of the Bruins players (I can't remember who) said in an interview during the first intermission that Gretzky had been hanging out around the red line at times that play was in the Oilers end and that they had to stay aware of that. If I know that Gretzky is hanging out up there waiting for an outlet pass, obviously, I'm going to be worried. He was dangerous enough as it was, and with that kind of head start, you're in trouble if he makes the break. With an elite offensive talent, I'd rather play to that regardless, since there's almost always a choice to be made. Someone like Orr or Howe that are so strong both ways that it doesn't matter is rare.

 

[VanIslander]

Laprade is an O6 era HHOFer without any WWII-discounted seasons (he won the Calder in 1946).

The biggest knock on him cannot be the lack of a playoff resume (the Rags in the era of the Leafs, Wings, Habs consecutive dynasties!).

Yeah he played only 7 full seasons, most of one more, part of two more.

But he is praised widely, has five straight years of Lady Byng voting (back when it was the OFFENSIVE CHUMP award - to a very skilled performer on a lesser team), and he reads like the forerunner to Gainey and Carbo minus the playoff success. Hence why weaker? Later in the draft?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I've had him on the want to draft list every year, and can never manage to snag him. Intriguing player.

Learned 2 pretty interesting things about Laprade from @TheDevilMadeMe’s bio when researching this pick...

1. Prior to the NHL he had success in the Allan Cup against the Kraut line, who were away from the NHL due to WWII, and in the middle of their peak/prime.

2. Laprade finished very narrowly behind Ted Kennedy for 2nd team AS in 1950 and actually had more votes. Kennedy 2-2-0 / Laprade 1-2-1

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Laprade has a rep here as a guy too soft to check the larger centers of the ATD. But he did do a good job against Schmidt head-to-head, so maybe that's unwarranted. Or maybe that was just a one-time deal. I have no idea how serious the NHLers playing for the Allan Cup during WW2 were taking it. But I know it's been cited as a big part of Laprade's HHOF case.

Fun fact though - by WW2, NHLers in the military weren't actually sent off to fight; they basically went around performing exhibition matches for the troops to keep morale up. Very different from WW1 when top hockey players actually fought and died.