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ATD 2021 Draft Thread III

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TheDevilMadeMe said:
Sorry to be a killjoy, but Fischler actually released a top 100 in 1988:

Top 100 Players - Stan Fischler, 1988

Based strictly on his list, his ideal team (ignoring chemistry) would be:

Bobby Hull - Wayne Gretzky - Gordie Howe
Toe Blake - Frank Boucher - Maurice Richard (yes, Boucher is his #2 C of all-time)
Dickie Moore - Howie Morenz - Bill Cook
Frank Mahovlich - Jean Beliveau - Mike Bossy

Red Kelly - Eddie Shore (Stan has them both as top 4 players all-time)
Doug Harvey - Denis Potvin
Bobby Orr - King Clancy

Glenn Hall
Georges Vezina
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wth Stan lol. Georges Vezina? This more like a list of his favorite players ... and Georges Vezina. Interesting that he hates Mario Lemieux even more than Orr. He's actually old enough to have seen Boucher, Cook and Morenz play... wow.
 
tinyzombies said:
wth Stan lol. Georges Vezina? This more like a list of his favorite players ... and Georges Vezina. Interesting that he hates Mario Lemieux even more than Orr. He's actually old enough to have seen Boucher, Cook and Morenz play... wow.
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There's some off stuff there, sure (Boucher and Orr being tops on that), but I don't think the Lemieux omission can be accurately framed like that. Depending on what part of 1988 the list was released, Lemieux had only three or four full seasons in. I can see how including him at that point in his career could be something akin to saying that McDavid is a top 10 all-time center right now. I certainly think he could get there, but I'd call myself nuts if I tried to make the argument that he is now. I'm not defending everything there (Orr at #6 among defensemen is unthinkable at that time since he was already retired), but the list should have some differences since it's over 20 years old.
 
Professor What said:
There's some off stuff there, sure (Boucher and Orr being tops on that), but I don't think the Lemieux omission can be accurately framed like that. Depending on what part of 1988 the list was released, Lemieux had only three or four full seasons in. I can see how including him at that point in his career could be something akin to saying that McDavid is a top 10 all-time center right now. I certainly think he could get there, but I'd call myself nuts if I tried to make the argument that he is now. I'm not defending everything there (Orr at #6 among defensemen is unthinkable at that time since he was already retired), but the list should have some differences since it's over 20 years old.
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Makes me angry that he left such a large historical record and that it's so unreliable. Then again lots of them back then were prone to exaggeration. And if they didn't like someone...
 
This is the fastest ATD ever.

Sure, we have had quick derivative OPPF and MLDs.

But we are 2/3rds the way through the ATD in less than a month?!

We might actually finish in February.
 
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I'll pick a speedy goal scorer in Tony Amonte, RW

With a VsX 7 year score of 73.0, there aren't many RWs left with a better offensive record. Of note is that Amonte was often the best offensive player on his teams by far.

Amonte developed a halfway decent physical and defensive game over the course of his career, so I feel comfortable slotting him into the bottom 6.

Amonte will sometimes play on Kopitar's RW. I think he's an upgraded version of a speedy RW who had success with Kopitar in real life.

Old bio: ATD 2013 BIO Thread (quotes, stats, pics, sources, everything)
 
I'll add some scoring to my 3rd line - Artemi Panarin

He has 5 full NHL seasons, and he's been top-10 in Even Strength scoring every one of them.
 
Well he was top 3 in scoring last year.
Had a 9th in points his rookie year.
No other top 10 finishes in goals or assists or points.
One 2nd round playoff.
2 points in 4 World Cup games.
Good juniors though.

Meh.

And touting even strength? Take a bottom-6 role player: pp or pk specialist. As a Leafs and an Oilers coach/GM have each said: if you don't bring something more than offense, you better make the top 6 or be benched.
 
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IMO Panarin should get something added for his last KHL season before coming to the NHL, he was top 5 in scoring in the regular season, and led the playoffs in scoring while his team won the Championship. Combine that with coming in and lighting up the NHL right from the start the very next year, and I think it's fair to say he was at least close to the same player that last year in Russia.
 
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imlachPunchTOR-e1443156135721.jpg


George "Punch" Imlach
 
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KHL accomplishments?

That would be right up there with AHL success. Heck a ****'n awesome AHL all star and later career HHOFer for -not his AHL years - his NHL career (the only league standard the last 30 years) is Johnny Bower.
 
What's Panarin's 5, 7, and 10 year scores?

Would it be fair to say that major bullet points in the 50/60's AHL would give at least something for players, given the AHL was surely the 2nd best league in the world at the time. Certainly in the 50's and likely through the early 60's. I'm asking because Johnny Bower had massive success in the AHL during this time period.

I mean how good is the quality of play in the current KHL?

I'm asking because I honestly don't know and haven't really heard of giving active players credit for things they did outside the NHL or International comp.
 
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IE: nail on nose.

You make the salient points and you ask the right question.

(This ain't the MLD.)
 
Dirt 101 said:
KHL accomplishments?

That would be right up there with AHL success. Heck a ****'n awesome AHL all star and later career HHOFer for -not his AHL years - his NHL career (the only league standard the last 30 years) is Johnny Bower.
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Agreed. KHL accomplishments shouldn't count for very much.

Having said that, Panarin doesn't have a 6th best NHL season, so what little the KHL success adds does help.
 
ImporterExporter said:
What's Panarin's 5, 7, and 10 year scores?

Would it be fair to say that major bullet points in the 50/60's AHL would give at least something for players, given the AHL was surely the 2nd best league in the world at the time. Certainly in the 50's and likely through the early 60's. I'm asking because Johnny Bower had massive success in the AHL during this time period.

I mean how good is the quality of play in the current KHL?

I'm asking because I honestly don't know and haven't really heard of giving active players credit for things they did outside the NHL or International comp.
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I don't know the answer to the question about handling other leagues, but it would probably be something worth figuring out. With the AHL example, you're dealing with some very strong players at that time because NHL roster spots were so rare, and that's probably especially true for goalies. We have to try to consider Soviet and Czechoslovakian league play because otherwise we can't get a real gauge on players from Eastern Europe during the Cold War. I tend not to put a lot of stock in WHA performances, but when you look at something like Bobby Hull's 77-goal season, it doesn't really seem right not to acknowledge that it likely would have been a 50+ goal season in the NHL.

In the case of the KHL, we're likely to get to the point that we have no choice but to learn how to handle it. Some Russian politicians, some of whom are former hockey players themselves have talked about making it much more difficult for young Russian players to make an early move to the NHL. We also see some Russians decide to go back now that there's a reasonably strong league at home and they want to finish their careers there. It would be difficult to do it for assists and points since, if I'm not mistaken, there can only be one assist per goal, but perhaps some sort of league equivalency system for goals would help to give some measure of the KHL.
 
Dreakmur said:
At even trength, 91.8, 65.6, and 45.9
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Thanks for the quick math! I figured you'd have it handy.

He'll be a scoring line player in the ATD (i think, as long as the Rags don't fall off a cliff). Just don't think he's capable of pulling that off here. Yet.

What do you see his role being on the squad sir?
 
To put it another way, if we gave ANY credit to Johnny Bower's AHL play, the guy who grudgingly began his NHL career two months before his 30th birthday, who had to be threatened to join the NHL (his AHL career - his pro career happily making the same kind of money)... Johnny Bower should be a top 100 ranked player!!!! The 36--year-old 1st team NHL all star, 37, 38, 39 and 42 year old Stanley Cup champion should be seen as a friggin' Tom Brady! He was an AHL legend before all that. At a time when the AHL and NHL did not have the pay differences of the KHL and NHL.

I haven't spent one minute on non-international, non-NHL play of Russians since the end of the Soviet Union.

No German league, Czech league or modern AHL.

Now, for the MLD... that's a different matter.
 
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ImporterExporter said:
Would it be fair to say that major bullet points in the 50/60's AHL would give at least something for players, given the AHL was surely the 2nd best league in the world at the time. Certainly in the 50's and likely through the early 60's. I'm asking because Johnny Bower had massive success in the AHL during this time period.
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The AHL of the 6 team era was the best non-NHL league ever. Yes, I think it was better than the 1970s 1980s Soviet league.

I mean how good is the quality of play in the current KHL?
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At the top-end, it's the best non-NHL league, but the depth is bad. There's a handful of guys who could come right over and be top-6 guys in the NHL, which was demonstrated by guys like Panarin and Radulov.

I'm asking because I honestly don't know and haven't really heard of giving active players credit for things they did outside the NHL or International comp.
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I wouldn't give guys much credit for the KHL seasons. I mean, it might be fair to say his top-5 in KHL scoring is something like a score of about 50 for the purposes of calculating vs.x scores.
 
ImporterExporter said:
Thanks for the quick math! I figured you'd have it handy.

He'll be a scoring line player in the ATD (i think, as long as the Rags don't fall off a cliff). Just don't think he's capable of pulling that off here. Yet.

What do you see his role being on the squad sir?
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He's a 3rd line scorer, not on the PP.

Only Patrick Kane and Connor McDavid have scored more ES points than Panarin since he came into the league.
 
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