ATD 2013 - Draft Thread V

[BraveCanadian]

Yeah the Canuck players are the only ones in the league that dive.

Unfortunately, that doesn't make it right.

And the Canucks are notorious. But anyways...

 

[VanIslander]

Messier and Forsberg have dived and feigned injury to draw penalties to put their teams on the powerplay in the playoffs.

While I don't respect divers per se, there is a time and place to do whatever it takes to win, and the competitive spirit has driven some to use such tactics at crucial moments.

Drawing penalties is a skill. Dino Ciccarelli did it the honorable way by taking abuse around the crease (crosschecking and tripping calls he drew a plenty from frustrated dmen). Others did it in less respectable ways, but still, to sacrifice one's populaity for the good of the team: that's a plus to a line-up in terms of actual gametime play.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Messier and Forsberg have dived and feigned injury to draw penalties to put their teams on the powerplay in the playoffs.

While I don't respect divers per se, there is a time and place to do whatever it takes to win, and the competitive spirit has driven some to use such tactics at crucial moments.

Drawing penalties is a skill. Dino Ciccarelli did it the honorable way by taking abuse around the crease (crosschecking and tripping calls he drew a plenty from frustrated dmen). Others did it in less respectable ways, but still, to sacrifice one's populaity for the good of the team: that's a plus to a line-up in terms of actual gametime play.

Been through this line of thinking on the boards here before.

I simply don't agree. It soils the win even if history forgets it later. I wouldn't have any respect for one of my teammates doing it at a "crucial" time or any other time. I'm trying to measure myself and my team against the opposition, not win the Oscar.

When Messier did it (or his other blatantly cheap moves) I didn't like it. I didn't like it when Gretzky dived either. It isn't a nationalist thing with me. It is a sportsmanship thing.

You'd make a good Wall Street investment banker with your reasoning, though.

 

[VanIslander]

It soils the win even if history forgets it later.

You'd make a good Wall Street investment banker, though.

You must absolutely loathe Esa Tikkanen then! Cheapshot artist and embellishment performer extrordinaire!

(*** the bankers; my point was that such tactics help the team win at key times, not **** over the system.)

 

[BraveCanadian]

You must absolutely loathe Esa Tikkanen then!

I think Tikkanese was hilarious but the diving I can do without.

(*** the bankers; my point was that such tactics help the team win at key times, not **** over the system and the majority.)

It comes from the same place. Screw them we got ours.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

The Pittsburgh Bankers are very pleased to select C Marty Walsh

...I'm suprised that Walsh is still available at this point in the draft. I've had Walsh on my radar since I chose Shadrin back at #386. I never imagined he would slip this far.

 

[Velociraptor]

Al Secord, LW and Steve Duchesne, D for Yekaterinburg.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I would say he was their best skater that playoff year, even without giving him credit for playing injured.

Honestly, outside of the Nashville series, Kesler disappointed. When the going gets tough his offense dries up and he's a pure checker.

 

[VanIslander]

The Pittsburgh Bankers are very pleased to select C Marty Walsh

If we hadn't gone for Weiland to re-unite the Wings top line, I would have lobbied for Walsh as a good candidate for our 3rd line pivot, though certainly a fourth liner on any squad. A solid pick now. There are plenty of good quotes on his defensive play too.

"... one of Ottawa's most popular puckchasers and his departure will be regretted. He always gave the Ottawa club the best that was in him, and was a chief factor in several Stanley Cup wins."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...lMuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VdkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5655,2655192

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Honestly, outside of the Nashville series, Kesler disappointed. When the going gets tough his offense dries up and he's a pure checker.

I thought he was their best player in the 1st round against us as well. I will say that I don't think anyone on that team played well every series, so even if he was their best skater, it's really not saying much compared to Cup runs of a lot of other teams. I don't think he was ever disappointing though, so long as you weren't expecting him to play at 100% while injured.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

The Pittsburgh Bankers select D Bucko McDonald

 

[JFA87-66-99]

If we hadn't gone for Weiland to re-unite the Wings top line, I would have lobbied for Walsh as a good candidate for our 3rd line pivot, though certainly a fourth liner on any squad. A solid pick now. There are plenty of good quotes on his defensive play too.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...lMuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VdkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5655,2655192

I thought Seventies did an excellent bio on Marty Walsh before, and I feel he's underrated somewhat.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I thought Seventies did an excellent bio on Marty Walsh before, and I feel he's underrated somewhat.

The issue with Marty Walsh is that his offense blurs in together with a bunch of other unspectacular but passable 2nd line centers, and while he does seem to have some of the grit you'd want on a 4th line, he doesn't really have much written about his defensive ability, so nobody wants him for a traditional checking line

I don't know - I guess the fact that nobody ever considers him for a real scoring role makes him underrated somewhat. I don't think there's necessarily a lot of difference between Walsh and his predecessor Frank McGee.

 

[BubbaBoot]

Doesn't Datsyuk have better Selke finishes than Kesler as well?



Also, when searching the Boston Globe in Google Archives, you can chip away at the small snippet they show you by putting the last part of the snippet in quotations and then searching for that. That usually reveals at the very least the full sentence.

Ah yes of course, I've done that on other times.

 

[BubbaBoot]

I would say he was their best skater that playoff year, even without giving him credit for playing injured.

He was a monster, got hurt and the Bruins neutralized him and the Sedins in the Finals.....and still he played at 110% with that debilitating injury. I got a lot of flak when I stated on the B's board that if he'd been healthy the outcome could very well have been quite different.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

He was a monster, got hurt and the Bruins neutralized him and the Sedins in the Finals.....and still he played at 110% with that debilitating injury. I got a lot of flak when I stated on the B's board that if he'd been healthy the outcome could very well have been quite different.

It was Hamhuis going down in game two that put the nail in our coffin.

 

[EagleBelfour]

The Pittsburgh Bankers are very pleased to select C Marty Walsh

...I'm suprised that Walsh is still available at this point in the draft. I've had Walsh on my radar since I chose Shadrin back at #386. I never imagined he would slip this far.

We've tried to trade up for Marty Walsh for a long time now. We couldn't pass on Mel Bridgman and his PK abilities, but Marty Walsh is an elite 4th liner in this draft. Very nice selection.

 

[seventieslord]

Top scorers as a group scored significantly more in 1993 than any other season, including any season in the 80s. But since HR's adjusted points is based on league average scoring, it doesn't adjust the scoring of top players in 1993 enough. Basically, 100 points was easier to get in 1993 than in 1983, even though league average scoring was lower. That's the whole point of using methods like Vs2 - to look at how hard it was for top scorers to score, not all players.

There have been quite a few threads on why 1992-93 was such a unique season, but it was definitely unique.

Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. But I don't know if you're hearing me here.

Scoring was 7% higher in 1983 than 1993. So, in an adjusted points system based only on league average scoring, there would be a pretty big adjustment to the 1983 season's totals, compared to the adjustment to 1993. i.e. 1993 was about 12% higher than an average season, and 1983 was 16% higher. You would expect proportional amounts to be cut off the totals of each season, in order to adjust it to a baseline season. But that's not what appears to be happening. In fact, more appears to be cut off the 1993 totals, than the 1983 totals, which is the exact opposite of what one would expect. So either the system is somehow accounting for what you think it is not accounting for, or there are other factors at play. I don't know what the answer is.

With our seventeenth selection, the 536th overall in this year All-Time Draft, les Nordiques de Quebec are very proud to select, from Trenton, Ontario, Canada, C/LW Mel Bridgman

''We are extremely please to draft a player with incredible intangibles to start our fourth line. A fine defensive player who can anchor a penalty kill unit, Mel Bridgman is more recognize by being a big, strong, mean, tough, dirty and aggressive forward. A player that was as effective at centre or on the left side, Bridgman was a model of consistency over his 15 years NHL career. We believe this former 1st overall selection will help us in the many little things we need to do to win a hockey game.''
----

I love Bridgman. As long as he's on my team.

Is it a stretch to say that, among players who are ATD/MLD caliber, he is top-10 all-time in intangibles in a forward? He is a guy who seems to check all the boxes.

It would be interesting to see some guys' lists. Completely ignore offense and consider only size, strength, defense, PK, hitting, fighting, intimidation, etc.

The Ottawa Senators select Ron Stackhouse, D

A big (6'3" in the 1970s), skilled, mobile right-handed defenceman, he did everything for the 1970s Penguins except hit.

Stackhouse received all-star votes in four seasons. He played big minutes in all situations, with career usage numbers of 42% at even strength, 46% on the power play, and 49% on the penalty kill. And despite playing on weak teams in an unbalanced league, he was still a plus player (on-ice GF/GA ratio of 1.05, compared to 0.82 when he was off the ice.)

good pick.

. The stats junkies have appraised his points above all else? It sure seems so.

Absolutely not. I have shown you before that he simply doesn't fit the profile of other "offensive specialists". I hate judging defensemen solely by points, and I refuse to do it.

- He frequently led his team in ES and overall TOI
- He played a ton of PK minutes (as much as he played on the PP)
- His adjusted +/- was incredible

This is what the Hollander scouting reports had to say:

1973: Tall and tough defender... played standout hockey for Detroit...

1975: Long reach enables him to play the man...

1978: Solid, all-round defenseman who seems to be getting more aggressive

1979: Has learned to use his size to better advantage

1980: Doesn't hit often but is deceptively effective with the use of the pokecheck

1981: solid, two-way type who uses size and reach to best advantage... Penguins top plus player last season...

1982: Solid as a house... sound player in mold of old-time blueliner... doesn't look to score, looks to block shots... one of most coveted players team has... team nixed a deal from Philadelphia that would have landed three players... consistently the pens' top +/- player... Has adjusted game from when he was the leading scorer among defensemen... has breezy skating style which sometimes makes him look lazy... lots of GMs would love to have his kind of laziness...

Name them when they're picked. Not to show you up, but I'm genuinely curious who they are.

I think there is a good number of guys who had a fairly comparable peak, but have whole 15-20 year careers of established track records of physical and/or defensive play and/or penalty killing.

I think that, like offense, you can't just have a couple seasons demonstrating your intangibles and they're suddenly as good in an all-time sense as the intangibles of a guy who did it 3-4 times longer.

It's because when you trade up it must be conditional, but when others try to trade up with you it must be unconditional. The smart GMs figured this out and decided to pass on your gas station sushi.

Well, I'm not sure where he'll play, but Pavol Demitra is joining our squad.

He may play either wing on our 3rd or 4th line. He'd got a strong offensive resume, has two-way ability, and plays all forward positions. As a nice bonus, he was the leading scorer of the 2010 Olympics.

Now here's a guy I'd call an elite spare. He can fill in anywhere on the 2nd-4th line if you need him to. Not the kind of guy I'd personally stick on a 4th line as a regular, but I don't begrudge doing so, either.

Honest question, what would make a guy like Patrick Marleau better than him?

Honestly, outside of the Nashville series, Kesler disappointed. When the going gets tough his offense dries up and he's a pure checker.

agree.

The issue with Marty Walsh is that his offense blurs in together with a bunch of other unspectacular but passable 2nd line centers, and while he does seem to have some of the grit you'd want on a 4th line, he doesn't really have much written about his defensive ability, so nobody wants him for a traditional checking line

I don't know - I guess the fact that nobody ever considers him for a real scoring role makes him underrated somewhat. I don't think there's necessarily a lot of difference between Walsh and his predecessor Frank McGee.

He probably is stuck in the role of "elite 4th line center" or even "elite scoring 3rd liner" because you're right, it's hard to see him distinguishing himself over the lower tier 2nd liners and there are so many good two-way 3rd liners that he ends up falling below as well. It's too bad because it really seems that he was a spectacular player.

And I have no idea why anyone would take Frank McGee (and his 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th in points, the 1st coming in a weaker league) over Walsh.

 

[seventieslord]

I think he was easily the best and most important player on what was probably the league's best regular-season team. Let's not forget that the Hart trophy is still an award for the most valuable player in the league, not the best forward, in spite of how it may often appear. I think there's a good argument that Henrik was, in fact, the league's most valuable player that year, yes.

More on this... Vancouver was tied for 5th in the NHL with 103 points, just two more than Pittsburgh and 18 fewer than Washington (who was probably the league's best regular season team). So if the case for Henrik is "ok, maybe he wasn't actually the best, but he was the best player on the best team" falls apart if his team wasn't actually the best, and was barely better than the team a clearly superior player led. Even if that was a legit case, what we really care about was who was the best, isn't it? Not just who was more valuable on account of the other personnel on the team.

As for the 9th and 10th, in which he was on 18% and 7% of voters put him on their ballots at all, isn't considering this significant just as problematic as the problems TDMM described regarding the THN list? The THN top 50 list ... was expanded to a top 100 in 1998 based off the top 50 lists that had already been submitted, which is terrible methodology and effectively guarantees that nobody in the 51-100 range was on the majority of lists

just divide all those numbers by 10, and we're talking about the significance of the 6th-10th spots in hart voting when everyone submitted a ballot with just 5 players on it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I love Bridgman. As long as he's on my team.

Is it a stretch to say that, among players who are ATD/MLD caliber, he is top-10 all-time in intangibles in a forward? He is a guy who seems to check all the boxes.

It would be interesting to see some guys' lists. Completely ignore offense and consider only size, strength, defense, PK, hitting, fighting, intimidation, etc.

Whoa, hold on a minute. I was seriously considering Bridgman with my next pick as a rare enforcer who can play, but the man was a good, not great defensive player and a good, not great penalty killer. Selke record = 8th, 17th, both times with less than 5% of 1st place's points. Killed 29% of his team's penalties for his career. None of these screams anything close to an elite defensive player.

I mean, maybe he's top 10 in hitting, fighting, intimidation only, while being pretty good at defense too.

Now here's a guy I'd call an elite spare. He can fill in anywhere on the 2nd-4th line if you need him to. Not the kind of guy I'd personally stick on a 4th line as a regular, but I don't begrudge doing so, either.

Honest question, what would make a guy like Patrick Marleau better than him?

I assume they are putting him next to Russel Bowie, who desperately needs something like a playmaker. And no, I don't see what makes Marleau better than Demitra. Demitra has been historically underrated in the ATD as a softish European player who never won the Cup.

And I have no idea why anyone would take Frank McGee (and his 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th in points, the 1st coming in a weaker league) over Walsh.

Well, McGee was an inaugural member of the HHOF, while Walsh never made it. McGee was also definitely more highly thought of during his 3 year peak than Walsh ever was... depends on how much you want to punish McGee for retiring so early.

 

[seventieslord]

Whoa, hold on a minute. I was seriously considering Bridgman with my next pick as a rare enforcer who can play, but the man was a good, not great defensive player and a good, not great penalty killer. Selke record = 8th, 17th, both times with less than 5% of 1st place's points. Killed 29% of his team's penalties for his career. None of these screams anything close to an elite defensive player.

I mean, maybe he's top 10 in hitting, fighting, intimidation only, while being pretty good at defense too.

Yeah, I considered all that. I think he's that good in the other areas. Most of the best defensive players of all-time aren't remotely close to him in the more physical areas, too, you know.

I wonder, is Hooley Smith maybe #1 all-time in intangibles? Mark Messier?

Well, McGee was an inaugural member of the HHOF, while Walsh never made it. McGee was also definitely more highly thought of during his 3 year peak than Walsh ever was... depends on how much you want to punish McGee for retiring so early.

Whoa, hold on a minute. Walsh is in the HHOF.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Whoa, hold on a minute. Walsh is in the HHOF.

fail. I have no idea who I was thinking of. Maybe I was remembering the guys who got in before the mass inductions of 1961 and 1962... I dunno.

I would pick someone like Mark Messier, Gordie Howe, Henri Richard, or George Armstrong as #1 in intangibles.

 

[overpass]

- (Stackhouse) frequently led his team in ES and overall TOI
- He played a ton of PK minutes (as much as he played on the PP)
- His adjusted +/- was incredible

This is what the Hollander scouting reports had to say:

1973: Tall and tough defender... played standout hockey for Detroit...

1975: Long reach enables him to play the man...

1978: Solid, all-round defenseman who seems to be getting more aggressive

1979: Has learned to use his size to better advantage

1980: Doesn't hit often but is deceptively effective with the use of the pokecheck

1981: solid, two-way type who uses size and reach to best advantage... Penguins top plus player last season...

1982: Solid as a house... sound player in mold of old-time blueliner... doesn't look to score, looks to block shots... one of most coveted players team has... team nixed a deal from Philadelphia that would have landed three players... consistently the pens' top +/- player... Has adjusted game from when he was the leading scorer among defensemen... has breezy skating style which sometimes makes him look lazy... lots of GMs would love to have his kind of laziness...

Thanks for posting those. I had the stats but it really helps to have quotes like that to put some meat on the bones of a player profile.

I've always thought that big players tend to be underrated by fans because they don't look like they're trying compared to small players, but often they are able to accomplish more. Effectively occupying the right space can be very valuable.

Stackhouse's coaches must have thought he was doing something right if they kept rolling him out for big minutes over a decade.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

I'll resist temptation to start a ****storm, and fill a need instead, selecting C/LW Gregg Sheppard, who killed a lot of penalties for some good teams(and some not so good), and was a pretty good ES scorer.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'll resist temptation to start a ****storm, and fill a need instead, selecting C/LW Gregg Sheppard, who killed a lot of penalties for some good teams(and some not so good), and was a pretty good ES scorer.

A well deserved jump.