ATD 2013 - Draft Thread II

[vecens24]

Do you consider Dit Clapper to have had a short career for ATD purposes? If so that seems a bit off to me.

Clapper played 9 seasons on D (with a tenth in 1947), and 10 more seasons at RW. That's a pretty FAR cry from what we're talking about with Gerard, right?

 

[Sturminator]

Bentley and Lach at this point just scream great value.

I dunno...Lach is basically Bentley with a lot more defense. I think Elmer is on about the same level as Fedorov, so he's good value. Bentley isn't bad here, but there's a reason he fell. I tend to be pretty hard on wartime scoring exploits, which includes the 45-46 season, and scoring is all Bentley ever did.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

I dunno...Lach is basically Bentley with a lot more defense. I think Elmer is on about the same level as Fedorov, so he's good value. Bentley isn't bad here, but there's a reason he fell. I tend to be pretty hard on wartime scoring exploits, which includes the 45-46 season, and scoring is all Bentley ever did.

Meh, I guess I can agree with that. I would say Bentley was more gifted than Lach (Lach also had a better cast around him), but Elmer was bigger and better in his own end like you said. They are both solid picks IMO.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The swamp devils have not okayed the trade with cincinatti. Don't you people know what a two way conditional trade is??????

Edit;: Nevermind, the trade wasn't posted in this thread. Thought it was off the conditional trade with me.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I didn't get a PM so I didn't know what was going on.

 

[markrander87]

The swamp devils have not okayed the trade with cincinatti. Don't you people know what a two way conditional trade is??????

Edit;: Nevermind, there wasn't another trade posted here. Thought it was off the conditional trade with me.

"You people"?

 

[markrander87]

I thought it was likely this pick was being traded away, so I wasn't ready for it. Anyone who wants it, send me an offer.

Sorry I must have misread your previous posts. I was under the impression you didn't want to trade now. Looks like bubba wants to move up.

 

[nik jr]

Here's overpass's post from the Top 70 list that I copied into Henry Richard's profile 2 drafts ago:

i did not forget that, but a couple of things make me wonder about the context of playing for habs.


i posted many measurements of shooting speed, skating speed, etc in history section 2 years ago. habs had highest average shooting speed and highest average skating speed.

habs seem to have outshot opponents in every season, and usually had the best goal differential until chicago became dominant in mid '60s, even when elite players like harvey, moore, geoffrion, rocket declined or left.

in '62, habs lost several of their star players to injury (beliveau, moore, richard, geoffrion) or trade (harvey), but they still set a new record for scoring (259g), led the NHL in scoring by a good margin, had +93 goal differential in 70 games and easily finished 1st.

several of habs depth players scored as much at ES as top 6 F's of other teams.


these things make me think that habs had the best puck possession and transition game in the NHL, which would be very useful on both sides of the puck.


i am not ignoring henri richard's contribution to habs' dominance. playing against top opponents and outscoring them is extremely useful, and underappreciated, imo, in comparison to pure offense. numbers posted by overpass give more credence to that famous comment that during richard's time with habs, he was their most valuable player.

overpass selects this guy: Elmer Lach, C

i think lach was a better player than ullman, but he was injured so often. he was often described with words like battered, oft-injured, injury-jinxed, etc. caption below a photo of lach in a 1985 newspaper article says "often injured." lach regularly played through injuries, though.

i already have 2 players who got injured too much.

after '49 season, lach said he would retire. canadian press said his "brilliant career has been marked by one serious injury after another." but lach did not retire, and played 5 more seasons.

He was my 2nd choice at center after Delvecchio.

same for me

i also wanted delvecchio last draft.

 

[DaveG]

"You people"?

one of the greatest movies ever

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm going to retreat to my study (the bathroom), then I'm going to grab something to eat (after washing my hands of course), then I'll be back to make this pick. I'll be accepting trade offers in the meantime.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I had a choice between Sid Abel and Alex Delvecchio to center Gordie Howe a few years ago and chose Abel. And I'd still choose Abel first - I think he proved to be a superstar on his own before Gordie Howe started dominating, while Delvecchio was something of an elite complimentary player for an extremely long time. It is close though. Abel is much more physical than Delvecchio, but Delvecchio was faster and seems to have a more versatile special teams skillset, which is useful in this format.

Swamp Devils select Sid Abel, C/LW

• 2nd Team AS LW (1942)
• 1st Team AS C (1949, 1950)
• 2nd Team AS C (1951)

• Hart Trophy winner (1949); also finished 4th in voting (1950)
• Captained 3 Stanley Cup winners (1943, 1950, 1952) - Gordie Howe was injured during the first round in 1950, so he was only a major factor in 1952.
• Missed all of 1944 and 1945 and most of 1946 because of World War 2 - and was an All-Star both before and after the war.

Points finishes: 2, 3, 4, 5, 7
Goals finishes: 1, 3, 7
Assists finishes: 3, 3, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 10

While Howe and Lindsay brought a mixture of styles and aggression that would intimidate their opponents, Abel's creativity and savvy was the backbone of the line and the Red Wings. But don't think he was soft. He could hit as hard or be as abrasive as his line mates…

It can be argued that Abel, not Howe, Sawchuk, Lindsay or Kelly, was the backbone of the great Red Wings team of the 1950's. Hockey historian Ed Fitkin was once quoted as saying "Sid will go down in the Red Wings' history as the greatest competitor and inspirational force the Red Wings ever had."

Despite Abel's gaudy assist totals (top 10 in assists in 1941, 1942, and every year from 1947-1952), an undrafted NHL coach with a long and storied career called Abel a "driver" more than a pure playmaker - someone who would go hard into corners to come out with the puck and feed it to his linemates. Milt Schmidt and Ted Kennedy were also said to play this style.

When the Production Line was put together, Sid Abel (whose skating had slowed down by that point), stayed back as the defensive conscience or "glue" of the line while the speedy Lindsay and Howe went in hard on the dump-and-chase game.

Sid Abel will be captain of the Swamp Devils.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

I had a choice between Sid Abel and Alex Delvecchio to center Gordie Howe a few years ago and chose Abel. And I'd still choose Abel first - I think he proved to be a superstar on his own before Gordie Howe started dominating, while Delvecchio was something of an elite complimentary player for an extremely long time. It is close though. Abel is much more physical than Delvecchio, but Delvecchio was faster and seems to have a more versatile special teams skillset, which is useful in this format.

Swamp Devils select Sid Abel, C/LW

• 2nd Team AS LW (1942)
• 1st Team AS C (1949, 1950)
• 2nd Team AS C (1951)

• Hart Trophy winner (1949); also finished 4th in voting (1950)
• Captained 3 Stanley Cup winners (1943, 1950, 1952) - Gordie Howe was injured during the first round in 1950, so he was only a major factor in 1952.
• Missed all of 1944 and 1945 and most of 1946 because of World War 2 - and was an All-Star both before and after the war.

Points finishes: 2, 3, 4, 5, 7
Goals finishes: 1, 3, 7
Assists finishes: 3, 3, 5, 5, 5, 5, 7, 10



Despite Abel's gaudy assist totals (top 10 in assists in 1941, 1942, and every year from 1947-1952), an undrafted NHL coach with a long and storied career called Abel a "driver" more than a pure playmaker - someone who would go hard into corners to come out with the puck and feed it to his linemates. Milt Schmidt and Ted Kennedy were also said to play this style.

When the Production Line was put together, Sid Abel (whose skating had slowed down by that point), stayed back as the defensive conscience or "glue" of the line while the speedy Lindsay and Howe went in hard on the dump-and-chase game.

Sid Abel will be captain of the Swamp Devils.

Nice! I love Sid Abel

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Damn you tdmm, I will have to mull before I pick.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Apparently I love drafting Detroit Red Wings from the 40s and 50s. I've started teams with Howe and Lindsay before; I've had Black Jack Stewart and Bill Quackenbush, and now I've had Abel twice.

One of these days, I have to get Red Kelly...

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

“Early in his NHL career he perfected a sweeping hook-check that stymied many opponents' offensive surges. When he was teamed with Frank Nighbor and Cy Denneny, his hook-check combined neatly with Nighbor's poke-check to give the Ottawa team an unrivalled defensive forward line. He didn't lose any of his scoring abilities, however, and so he developed into one of the game's most complete performers.†– Legends of Hockey

The Minnesota Fighting Saints are pleased to select, from Toronto, Ontario, Canada, Hooley Smith, C/RW

 

[Dreakmur]

The Minnesota Fighting Saints are pleased to select, from Toronto, Ontario, Canada, Hooley Smith, C/RW

Uhg. How perfect would he have been for our first line??

 

[BubbaBoot]

The Minnesota Fighting Saints are pleased to select, from Toronto, Ontario, Canada, Hooley Smith, C/RW

Sigh*

Y'all are just busting my chops on purpose, eh?

 

[overpass]

i think lach was a better player than ullman, but he was injured so often. he was often described with words like battered, oft-injured, injury-jinxed, etc. caption below a photo of lach in a 1985 newspaper article says "often injured." lach regularly played through injuries, though.

i already have 2 players who got injured too much.

after '49 season, lach said he would retire. canadian press said his "brilliant career has been marked by one serious injury after another." but lach did not retire, and played 5 more seasons.

Yeah, injuries are certainly Lach's weakness. I can understand why you might avoid him.

I will note that Lach frequently played through his injuries. Many of the stories about Lach's injuries are about him playing through one injury or another. Injuries didn't stop him from some impressive seasonal accomplishments, including:

• One Hart trophy (44-45)
• A close second in Hart voting to Gordie Howe (51-52), and a third in Hart voting (47-48)
• Two Art Ross trophies (44-45 and 47-48)
• Six top 10s in points (42-43, 43-44, 44-45, 45-46, 47-48, 51-52)

When Lach retired he was all over the NHL all-time leaders. Seventh in games played, second in points, first in assists. He was the third oldest player in the league during his final season. Pretty good for a player who had trouble staying healthy.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I do find it funny that Lach and Abel are the last of the great 40's centres to go, when there is a legit argument for them to be just as good as Schmidt and Apps.

Uhg. How perfect would he have been for our first line??

He's a two-position glue guy with skating, physicality, defence, playmaking and goalscoring, he's perfect for just about any line.

Sigh*

Y'all are just busting my chops on purpose, eh?

Abel was my original plan, blame TDMM. Although with Smith, there should be no questioning using him as a winger.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Also a great LW. He was the last defenceman on our list we would of felt comfortable to have as a #1, but he didn't fit the style of game we want the Nordiques to play.

------

With the 91st pick, the Chicago Shamrocks are proud to select:

Doug Gilmour, C

Thanks for announcing my pick. There were several good centers out there...I wanted someone with a strong defensive game who could also be a good setup man for Bossy. I think Gilmour fills both of those.

I am looking to trade pick #102 to someone that has a mid-late round 4 pick and wants to move up. In exchange I would like to improve one of my late round 5/early round 6 picks. PM me with offers

 

[EagleBelfour]

Hooley Smith a Top-100 All-Time player now? I have half a dozen centre better than him at his position alone. He brings a lot of intangible, but are those enough to make him a perennial Top-100 player? Sorry to hit on your selection NP, but I am alone feeling this way? Is there an argument for him to that early draft after draft?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Hooley Smith a Top-100 All-Time player now? I have half a dozen centre better than him at his position alone. He brings a lot of intangible, but are those enough to make him a perennial Top-100 player? Sorry to hit on your selection NP, but I am alone feeling this way? Is there an argument for him to that early draft after draft?

I hope to write up a quality bio on him, but the big points are:
1. No major weaknesses.
2. He can play the wing, and there aren't clearly better wingers at this point.
3. Elite glue guys are one of the rarest things in the ATD.
4. Proven chemistry with Nighbor.

 

[nik jr]

Yeah, injuries are certainly Lach's weakness. I can understand why you might avoid him.

I will note that Lach frequently played through his injuries. Many of the stories about Lach's injuries are about him playing through one injury or another. Injuries didn't stop him from some impressive seasonal accomplishments, including:

• One Hart trophy (44-45)
• A close second in Hart voting to Gordie Howe (51-52), and a third in Hart voting (47-48)
• Two Art Ross trophies (44-45 and 47-48)
• Six top 10s in points (42-43, 43-44, 44-45, 45-46, 47-48, 51-52)

When Lach retired he was all over the NHL all-time leaders. Seventh in games played, second in points, first in assists. He was the third oldest player in the league during his final season. Pretty good for a player who had trouble staying healthy.

definitely a great player, and i once read him described as one of 2 C's who could "make his W's," meaning turn an ordinary W into a very good W. lach was also a very good 2 way player. his coach called him a 4 way player. he was also used on PK.

but i did not want everyone to associate my teams with injuries.

 

[VanIslander]

Hooley Smith a Top-100 All-Time player now? I have half a dozen centre better than him at his position alone. He brings a lot of intangible, but are those enough to make him a perennial Top-100 player? Sorry to hit on your selection NP, but I am alone feeling this way? Is there an argument for him to that early draft after draft?

Ditto with the Neely pick. Instead of trading down half a round (or waiting a round or two) some GMs jump on a guy early. That is part of team management (or mismanagement). A GM foregoes better value in a pick and if that happens often enough a team will suffer.

The more GMs think of needs (team chemistry) and wants (homer picks) the worse the draft order will be as a reflection of all-time merit of the players themselves. Hence the concern I've stated previously that the team building concept has gone from beside the point to becoming the point in the ATDs! Times, they are a changin'. So be it. One of the best features ever added to the ATDs has been the bios; one of the worst may be the playoffs. Ah, well. The nature of the beast,... has changed.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The Minnesota Fighting Saints are pleased to select, from Toronto, Ontario, Canada, Hooley Smith, C/RW

I was considering him at 101 because of his unique skill set, but thought he'd be a mini-reach there...

Edit: For the record, I did briefly consider him at 92, again because of the unique skillset, but I just couldn't see the value.