ATD 2011 Draft Thread IV

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Sturminator

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Feb 27, 2002
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I think it's unfair to discredit a player based on an unproven fact.

We discredit Harry Cameron based on the foggiest of accusations about his behavior in Toronto. We discredit Gordie Drillon because he was supposedly benched during the Cup Finals because of his terrible defensive play, even though I've never seen source documents detailing the incident. We discredit Clint Benedict for showing up drunk in the Cup Finals because of a newspaper report. None of this can be truly proven, but we have reason to believe that these events occured and so we believe them.

Almost all of the negative evidence used to make arguments in the ATD would not pass as proof of anything in a court of law, but that doesn't mean we should simply throw it out. I find it strange that this "presumption of innocence" argument is only used to defend Krutov when, in fact, we could trot it out every time negative information comes out about a player. In what way is first-hand testimony from NHL trainers and the word of Krutov's teammate (not to mention the weight of circumstantial evidence), weaker than the vast majority of what passes for evidence around here? I would honestly like to have this question answered, because I find the persistent "it wasn't me" arguments in defense of Krutov confusing.

Can I ask you Sturm what way do you judge Vladimir Krutov in the ATD. For example, which LW would you say own the same value as Krutov?

As it is with all players, I weigh all the information we have on Krutov in order to come up with a valuation. I factor in how good he could have been vs. how bad he could have been, multiply that by the likelihood of each scenario or something in-between, and come up with his value. It's not as mathematical as it sounds, but that's essentially how I do it. For most players it is easy because we know essentially how good they were - so the upside vs. downside evaluation is no great burden. For Krutov it is much harder because the upside is a player about on Larionov's level and the downside is a beer leaguer. Krutov is not the only one. Hod Stuart and Herb Gardiner are also quite hard to evaluate (wide variation in upside vs. downside), although for different reasons.

I don't actually consider Krutov a beer-leaguer in this thing, and it is hyperbole when I say I wouldn't draft him in the MLD. I would. At some point, Krutov would become worth it even to me. The problem here is that his potential downside is so huge (think Robert Paulson from Fight Club) and the probability of that downside substantial enough that I think it takes a lot of the shine off of his upside. Notice that I said "substantial". I don't think it's an open-and-shut case against Krutov, either, but I think there is easily enough evidence in favor of the downside that it should be factored in to how we view him as a player.

I guess I would draft Krutov as a 4th liner in the ATD. Hell, in a 40 team draft, I might even think about him on a 3rd line if I needed what he brings and I was hungry for donuts. I obviously can't tell you who in the ATD I think has similar value to Krutov because those guys haven't been drafted yet. Like I said, I take both Krutov's upside and his downside seriously when evaluating him as a player, and though his upside is better than where you selected him, his downside is much, much worse.
 

markrander87

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Jan 22, 2010
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No we don't. You're simply rehashing GBC's tired old argument, which is nonsensical in the extreme. The ATD is not a court of law; we make many judgments about players without absolute proof. If everything in the ATD had to be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, we'd have very little to talk about, now wouldn't we? I think maybe I'll do a little photo montage this year to show just how fat Krutov's head was (a classic sign of steroid use) at his peak vs. his younger days and after the juice. That might at least be humorous.

THIS.



It's got to a point where one quote from the Sacramento Times in 1921 is more valuable than common sense.

Regarding Olmsteads defensive play:

This quote for example from one of the best players of all time who played on his line for several years.

-''Ollmstead could hammer an opponene senseless, and seconds later chew you out on the bench because you were three inches out of position'' - Jean Béliveau


One might ask what is one of the key essential parts or being a great defensive player. Positioning and accountability. Not only did Olmstead thrive on the little things, he made the players around him focus on the little things as well

-''He didn't stand any nonsense from us. Bert was about hte best left wing I ever saw when it came to fighting for possesion of the puck. And if I was where he wanted me, parked in front of the net, his pass would be perfect. Playing with Bert, I always felt that he got the best out of me, that he made me do smarter things than I would of done myself.'' - Jean Béliveau


But of course this surely can't translate into being a more than effective defensive presence? Pretty safe to assume because there is no quote from some no name reporter from the 1950's and rather two quotes from one of the best players of all-time instead. Let's just throw logic out the window.
 
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DoMakc

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Jun 28, 2006
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Actually, it was Joe Pelletier who said that, and it's not actually true. Krutov wasn't fat as a younger player and actually didn't look as fat in Vancouver (and later Switzerland) as he had during his glory days on the Soviet team. I think I will do that photo montage. This should be amusing.



No, he is under specific suspicion because Larionov fingered him and members of the Canucks training staff were convinced that coming off the juice was the cause of the sudden collapse of his skills. Read this:



Circumstantial evidence also speaks strongly against Krutov. He was a small man, but unbelievably strong. He was at the very peak of his powers (being Soviet League MVP in 1987 and an all-star and Olympic Games leading scorer in 1988) before coming over to North America, and then out of nowhere the bottom just fell out. At the age of 29, Krutov went from superstar to completely useless in the span of a few months while both his linemates thrived.

The whole picture on Krutov is very, very suspicious.

Actually, Ed Willis did it. Larionov said they refused to accept injections.
And Kasatonov would be another one under suspicion - he relied on his strength and was his coach's model student.

And when Krutov failed in Vancouver, he didn't even go back to Europe and play in a decent league. He went to Switzerland, for god's sakes.

The current russian NT's coach went to Switzerland as did his RW, they were paid very well there, a good reason.
 

EagleBelfour

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Jun 7, 2005
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We discredit Harry Cameron based on the foggiest of accusations about his behavior in Toronto ....

Although I firmly disagree that his downside is as huge as you make it out to be, in fact in the early 1980's Krutov was already a fantastic hockey player, this is a well written argumentation and I agree with some of the principle. However, I still very much think that Krutov is a steal at this point in the draft and that his accomplishment are underrated by quite a few GM. We'll see if I'll have time to write an 'Firsov'esque' bio, or else I'll leave it at that.

When was the first time Krutov supposedly took steroids for the first time?
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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Montreal Canadiens are proud to select Gary Suter.

000546074.jpg
 

EagleBelfour

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With our 7th selection, the 237th overall in this year All-time Draft, the Detroit Falcons are very please to select Cecil Dillon

154.jpg


Stanley Cup Champion (1933)
Retro Conn Smythe (1933)
NHL First All-Star Team (1938)
NHL Second All-Star Team (1936, 1937)

Six-time Top-10 in goalscoring

Always wanted to draft this fellow NYR.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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West Egg, New York
Actually, Ed Willis did it. Larionov said they refused to accept injections.

...in the official letter, which tells us nothing. Larionov wasn't going to betray his friend in such a public way. But Larionov did finger Krutov in discussions with Willis while he was doing the research for that book. You seem to be misreading the text I quoted, as it says clearly that Willis was repeating accusations which came from Larionov.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
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West Egg, New York
And Kasatonov would be another one under suspicion - he relied on his strength and was his coach's model student.

Perhaps, but I am not so extreme as to question a player's legacy with literally zero specific evidence against him. I agree that Kasatonov (who also had a bad case of "fat head" during his prime) would be a candidate, but no...I will not go that far.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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Damn I need to start drafting pre-expansion players if I want to impress the vintage-lovers in there ;)

Almost drafted a pre-expansion dman but decided to go with Suter.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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Didn't you guys watched Rocky IV ?! Every russians athletes of the past were on steroids.

:)
 

JFA87-66-99

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Jun 12, 2007
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With our 7th selection, the 237th overall in this year All-time Draft, the Detroit Falcons are very please to select Cecil Dillon

154.jpg


Stanley Cup Champion (1933)
Retro Conn Smythe (1933)
NHL First All-Star Team (1938)
NHL Second All-Star Team (1936, 1937)

Six-time Top-10 in goalscoring

Always wanted to draft this fellow NYR.

Cecil Dillon is one player who always intrigued me. I'd like to learn some more about him?
 

EagleBelfour

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Jun 7, 2005
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EB's biographies are like 10 pages from a history book :laugh:

I'm sure it will be a very interesting bio, and I also am excited to learn about Dillon.

You guys are not alone that wants to learn on Cecil Dillon! I was flip-flopping between two players, but thought researching Dillon would be way more interesting. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I'll have time to do those crazy biographies like for my first 5 selection. If you guys wanna help me and dig some quotes from hockey books, which I don't have access, I will put up a Cecil Dillon biography before starting my Vladimir Krutov one.

I think I'll concentrate to do great biographies on My top-6 forward, Top-4 defenceman and #1 goaltender. I'm sure I won't have time to do bios on all my 25 selections.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
I'm willing to assume that Krutov was on steroids, for the reason that Sturm gave.

I don't think that means his accomplishments are worth nothing. Krutov was among the best wingers in the world for much of a decade. That's the historical record. Yes, discount him for the purposes of this draft for not being able to perform at that level under all conditions. But he did perform at that level and that counts for something.

I don't think Krutov's post-Soviet play can be taken as a reliable indicator of how he would have performed without steroids in his prime. There were other factors at play - inability to adjust to a different lifestyle, possible joint degeneration, and maybe he just lost the mental edge as he physically declined.

I agree with this.

As it is with all players, I weigh all the information we have on Krutov in order to come up with a valuation. I factor in how good he could have been vs. how bad he could have been, multiply that by the likelihood of each scenario or something in-between, and come up with his value. It's not as mathematical as it sounds, but that's essentially how I do it.

I agree with this, too. For that reason I would take Krutov on a 4th line myself.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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I'm sorry I think we picked at the same time since I picked just as Eagle's clock was expired and we just forgot or thought the other one would pm you.
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
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To mark: People wouldn't buy my arguments that Denneny keeping up with his Ottawa teammates during rushes, specifically Clancy, translated to good speed. Your argument is ambiguous at best. "3 inches out of position" could have meant for a pass. "The best out of all of us" could have meant damn well near anything. Can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to believe this as evidence for defensive play, then I'd appreciate if you accepted that Denneny was not only a strong skater, but also strong defensively too. :)

@Krutov: He gets minus points from me, but not for the roids specifically.. he crashed and burned hard in the NHL, and the fact that he didn't adjust to the NHL AT ALL is a huge red flag for me. As far as I'm concerned, he's an NHL grinder.

Also, Sturm is correct. The evidence against Krutov for his roids would almost certainly lead to an IIHF ban for him. It's a lot stronger than some of the stuff that passes for evidence around here.
 

markrander87

Registered User
Jan 22, 2010
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Please take the time to read this article referring to Darryl Sittler Shadowing the best player for an opposing team during thr world Championships for Canada:


http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...=4122,3323772&dq=darryl+sittler+defense&hl=en



Team Canada bolstered by the strong defense of Darryl Sittler

Sittler of the Flyers played outstanding defense on West Germanys Key Player XXX XXXXXXX. He also won all but one faceoff.

And we put Sittler out whenever XXXXX XXX was out.
 

BigDucky

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May 30, 2008
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Downriver, MI
The Riots select Ed Giacomin, G. It came down to him and another goalie, but I decided to go with the guy who isn't afraid of being hit with the puck.
 

jarek

Registered User
Aug 15, 2009
10,004
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I believe Sittler was solid defensively. I very strongly believe in first hand accounts of play. Several guys have already said that they felt he was strong defensively, and I certainly respect that.

For your benefit mark, here's how I view Olmstead defensively: I believe he was adequate defensively. I believe that a man who worked as hard as he did and wanted to win as much as he did could NOT have been bad defensively. I also give him bonus points BECAUSE of his hard work ethic. Nobody with his kind of attitude doesn't try their damndest to keep the puck out of their own net. However, he is NEVER singled out or praised specifically for HIS defensive work. I've never seen it. Therefore, I view him as slightly above average in his own era defensively. If you can find accounts of him SPECIFICALLY showing good defensive play, then I can certainly alter my opinion of him.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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Is there anyway you can justify taking Eric Desjardins ahead of Gary Suter?
It's funny because they both respectively played 1143 nd 1145 games.

Eric Desjardins:
6-1 205 lbs
all-star team ( 2nd , 2nd )
80 pts in 168 playoff games
575 pts in 1143 games
1 cup

Gary Suter:
6-0 215 lbs
Calder Trophy
all-star team ( 1st , 2nd )
Top 10 assist ( 6th )
73 pts in 108 playoff games
844 pts in 1145 games
1 cup
 
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