Assuming Kucherov wins third Art Ross, he is above which of these groups of players...

[daver]

You are right I had the number worng but my point remains the same ?Kuch is a part of an insanely good PP Unit.

19-20 with Kuch TB was 6th in PPG and 5th in PP%
20-21 without Kuch TB was 4th in PPG and 9th in PP%
21-22 with Kuch TB was 6th in PPG and 8th in PP%

Detroit without Yzerman in his prime most certainly wouldn'dt have done as well as they didn't have the weapons.

How is 9th best PP in the league "insanely good"? He made them insanely good.

That's all guesswork though. Why didn't Yzerman keep up his point totals when the Wings did have weapons later in his career?

In the past two season, Kucherov is right there with Mac and McDavid in ES scoring.

Arguing that Yzerman is on another offensive level from Kucherov is not reasonable. I don't many people would agree wwith you.

 

[wetcoast]

How is 9th best PP in the league "insanely good"? He made them insanely good.

Is 5th insanely good or 8th?

What I showed us that the difference between Kuch in the TB PP in or out of the lineup was statistically.unsignifcant.

That's all guesswork though. Why didn't Yzerman keep up his point totals when the Wings did have weapons later in his career?

Well scoring went down and Detroit deployed him differently as well as players in their 39 in the era did see natural aging drops right?

I mean Gretzky's scoring went down as well on the same age curve.

In the past two season, Kucherov is right there with Mac and McDavid in ES scoring.

Yes and part of that is the EN and 3 on 3 scoring as well as core players generally scoring more % wise now all of that adds up along with the PP unit.

Arguing that Yzerman is on another offensive level from Kucherov is not reasonable. I don't many people would agree wwith you.

I'm arguing that their 7 years primes are equal in terms of league dominance and the numbers I presented earlier bear that out.

 

[daver]

Is 5th insanely good or 8th?

What I showed us that the difference between Kuch in the TB PP in or out of the lineup was statistically.unsignifcant.

He has 99 PP points in the last two seasons, the next best Bolt is Point with 63. There is no reason to think he doesn't put up as many points on another team.

 

[GeeoffBrown]

I'm having a hard time to placing Kucherov in these tiers because I think Sakic and Yzerman are underrated in the OP

 

[Regal]

He has 99 PP points in the last two seasons, the next best Bolt is Point with 63. There is no reason to think he doesn't put up as many points on another team.

I don’t know if the gap in production is quite the way to look at it necessarily. He’s absolutely the straw the stirs the drink on that PP, and the QB, but the team has had a number of weapons. Those guys have their numbers spread out because they’re multiple options that Kucherov is feeding, but having those multiple weapons to feed also helps Kucherov. He’d put up elite PP numbers anywhere but probably not quite the same on a lesser team.

That said, it’s one of those things where he should get more credit for being that good on a good PP not the other way around. Some players score more as the focal point on a weaker PP and either score less as things are spread out on a good one, or score the same because things are spread out but the PP is scoring more. Kucherov is so good as a QB that everything still runs through him so he benefits from the better players. I don’t think Yzerman was on the same level as a PP player. He was more of an ES scorer with his skating and transition play.

 

[TrKB PAM]

I don’t know if the gap in production is quite the way to look at it necessarily. He’s absolutely the straw the stirs the drink on that PP, and the QB, but the team has had a number of weapons. Those guys have their numbers spread out because they’re multiple options that Kucherov is feeding, but having those multiple weapons to feed also helps Kucherov. He’d put up elite PP numbers anywhere but probably not quite the same on a lesser team.

That said, it’s one of those things where he should get more credit for being that good on a good PP not the other way around. Some players score more as the focal point on a weaker PP and either score less as things are spread out on a good one, or score the same because things are spread out but the PP is scoring more. Kucherov is so good as a QB that everything still runs through him so he benefits from the better players. I don’t think Yzerman was on the same level as a PP player. He was more of an ES scorer with his skating and transition play.

Kucherov's PP scoring is super high end, but it doesn't seem to necessarily correlate to higher gf/60 than other superstars. Comparing the big three offensive producers of the last three years:

2022-25 powerplay:
McDavid points: 10.95/60 on-ice gf: 13.62/60
Kucherov points: 9.08/60 on-ice gf: 10.68/60
MacKinnon points: 7.53/60 on-ice gf: 10.42 60

22-25 even strength, excluding EN situations:
McDavid points: 3.19/60 on-ice gf: 3.98/60
Kucherov points: 2.87/60 on-ice gf: 3.74/60
MacKinnon points: 3.1/60 on-ice gf: 3.91/60

Unlike the case of Oilers powerplay, the Tampa powerplay unit doesn't seem to score goals at any higher of a rate than other top powerplay units in the league such as Colorado and Toronto. Kucherov has a very high ipp% on the powerplay.

 

[Regal]

Kucherov's PP scoring is super high end, but it doesn't seem to necessarily correlate to higher gf/60 than other superstars. Comparing the big three offensive producers of the last three years:

2022-25 powerplay:
McDavid points: 10.95/60 on-ice gf: 13.62/60
Kucherov points: 9.08/60 on-ice gf: 10.68/60
MacKinnon points: 7.53/60 on-ice gf: 10.42 60

22-25 even strength, excluding EN situations:
McDavid points: 3.19/60 on-ice gf: 3.98/60
Kucherov points: 2.87/60 on-ice gf: 3.74/60
MacKinnon points: 3.1/60 on-ice gf: 3.91/60

Unlike the case of Oilers powerplay, the Tampa powerplay unit doesn't seem to score goals at any higher of a rate than other top powerplay units in the league such as Colorado and Toronto. Kucherov has a very high ipp% on the powerplay.

Some interesting numbers. What are your thoughts on what they suggest?

One thing I’ve struggled with is how much the fact that a PP ends when a goal is scored might impact per 60 numbers

 

[daver]

I'm arguing that their 7 years primes are equal in terms of league dominance and the numbers I presented earlier bear that out.

That what I was claiming too. That Yzerman's 7 year dominance is on a level that is in the Top 30ish all-time range; a clear tier below the offensive ceilings of McDavid, Crosby, Jagr and Lafleur. If you want to give an edge to Yzerman then fine, but that doesn't place him on another tier because of subjective, hypothetical scenarios.

 

[wetcoast]

That what I was claiming too. That Yzerman's 7 year dominance is on a level that is in the Top 30ish all-time range; a clear tier below the offensive ceilings of McDavid, Crosby, Jagr and Lafleur. If you want to give an edge to Yzerman then fine, but that doesn't place him on another tier because of subjective, hypothetical scenarios.

Both Yzerman and Lafleur are in a tier below the other 3 guys for me but I guess it depends what one is measuring?

The first 3 guys are a level above the last 2 guys clearly in an all time sense.

 

[daver]

Both Yzerman and Lafleur are in a tier below the other 3 guys for me but I guess it depends what one is measuring?

The first 3 guys are a level above the last 2 guys clearly in an all time sense.

At the basic level, you are measuring who was the better hockey player and then what were they able to accomplish with their talent. Among forwards, offensive production is the key measurement as that is the greatest value they can provide for their team.

Lafleur is rated below those three as he doesn't have much on his resume besides his six year peak but his offensive ceiling is right there with them.