Arsenal FC Thread

[phisherman]

He isn't even being overly cautious. How can anyone who actually watched today or even the Wolves match claim they were being overly cautious? Overly cautious is when he was using the hybrid 3-5-2 formation that got him results against Liverpool and Man City and the FA Cup.

He's now trying to implement his system with 4 at the back and the results aren't coming because the make up of the players aren't good enough. When I say make up I'm not necessarily saying talent. It's more to do with their athletic ability. It's why Arteta wants the whole midfield replaced and another CB.

The players that make up the team is just not built properly for a specific system because there was a lack of direction since near the end of Wenger's tenure.

 

[Live in the Now]

"Thomas is out, he's limping, he's in pain, he has to come off and we lost a man in that crucial transition moment," Arteta told Sky Sports. "He has to fall on the floor.
"I wanted him on the pitch, doing whatever he could for the team in that situation. No one expected him not to be in that position."
"I was trying to push him back on the pitch, I don't think he realised the gravity of the situation when he left his position.

Thomas Partey: Mikel Arteta critical of injured Arsenal midfielder leaving the field

 

[The Abusement Park]

Oof...

 

[Chimaera]

Yeah I’ve no idea about that. I think he’s right in the sense that you don’t wander off and ask to be removed. You go down hope for a whistle or do your best to be a traffic cone. But it’s also a little bit of a bad look for his players too. If he’s really hurt, he can’t help the play, though some players would certainly do what they could until play stopped.

If they lose to Burnley it might be a month till they get a win. That might cause him to lose his job, but I don’t know that a better manager is doing much more than 3-4 points over the next 6-7 matches. They’re just not that good. If Partey is out for a while, they’re even worse. Auba looks like he’s in a slump. If he isn’t playing well, they’re definitely not a top 6 side. They’re closer than mid table than top 4-5 without Partey and Auba playing like they could.

 

[Blender]

He isn't even being overly cautious. How can anyone who actually watched today or even the Wolves match claim they were being overly cautious? Overly cautious is when he was using the hybrid 3-5-2 formation that got him results against Liverpool and Man City and the FA Cup.

He's now trying to implement his system with 4 at the back and the results aren't coming because the make up of the players aren't good enough. When I say make up I'm not necessarily saying talent. It's more to do with their athletic ability. It's why Arteta wants the whole midfield replaced and another CB.

The players that make up the team is just not built properly for a specific system because there was a lack of direction since near the end of Wenger's tenure.

He definitely is. A slow possession game where you make mostly safe side and back passes and keep most of your players behind the ball is by definition a cautious style of play. You don't need to park the bus to be cautious. That also doesn't mean that their backline is good enough to defend counters with 4 at the back, because it's not.

 

[phisherman]

He definitely is. A slow possession game where you make mostly safe side and back passes and keep most of your players behind the ball is by definition a cautious style of play. You don't need to park the bus to be cautious. That also doesn't mean that their backline is good enough to defend counters with 4 at the back, because it's not.

A lot of the slow passing has to do with the players not moving off the ball when in possession and no one playing centrally that can make the incisive pass in the final third. There were one or two times that Laca did that but no one else on the team tried.

Thomas Partey: Mikel Arteta critical of injured Arsenal midfielder leaving the field

Yes replays showed Arteta literally pushing him back on to the field. Partey should have gone to ground to at least hope there would be a stop in play or having the ball played out but he hobbled to the sidelines. I'm not saying that would have stopped the goal or anything but at least there would be a very slight chance the play would have been stopped.

 

[Blender]

A lot of the slow passing has to do with the players not moving off the ball when in possession and no one playing centrally that can make the incisive pass in the final third. There were one or two times that Laca did that but no one else on the team tried.

Teams with comparable or even much less talent than Arsenal regularly manage to play a much more direct and vertical game while still maintaining a solid defensive shape. I've been clear that I think they have the 7th or 8th best squad in the league, but they look like they are playing the similar Sarri-ball style that Chelsea did 2 years ago, but with less individual talent to break games open. That style was incredibly patient, slow, and boring, and relied on players mostly standing still and making back/side passes waiting for the opponent to make a mistake and open a lane up. It frustrated me endlessly because it just didn't work against teams that collapsed around their own box, you need to hit those teams in transition and overload their defenders with quick runs and passes.

 

[robertmac43]

I had to watch the game late. I managed to avoid spoilers and all that jazz, now I'm going to bad sad!

 

[Evilo]

He isn't even being overly cautious. How can anyone who actually watched today or even the Wolves match claim they were being overly cautious? Overly cautious is when he was using the hybrid 3-5-2 formation that got him results against Liverpool and Man City and the FA Cup.

He's now trying to implement his system with 4 at the back and the results aren't coming because the make up of the players aren't good enough. When I say make up I'm not necessarily saying talent. It's more to do with their athletic ability. It's why Arteta wants the whole midfield replaced and another CB.

The players that make up the team is just not built properly for a specific system because there was a lack of direction since near the end of Wenger's tenure.

Saliba is athletic and used to 4 at the back.

 

[Havre]

Jenas spends 20 seconds or something on MOTD showing how there is no movement in front of the ball, but also whenever there is a possibility to play that forward pass the midfielders/defenders opt for the safe pass. Just a vicious cycle.

There is just one way out of that rot - play the pass - accept that you then might get slaughtered on the counter attack. At least it sparks some energy in to the game.

I don't watch Arsenal enough to have a deep understanding of what is happening right now, but a back 5 with Luiz seems to make sense to me. Protect him defensively and ask him to control the passing when in possession? Tierney and Niles down the flanks?

Could go full Mourinho last season with a tilted formation. Play Pepe on the RW with Auba and Lacazette centrally. Allow Tierney to bomb down the left (like Aurier did) and ask the RB to stay home (like Davies).

Probably too simplistic, but there seem to be quite a few options to accomplish something there. Really hate the options at CM though. Without Partey there really isn't much.

 

[Aladyyn]

Yeah he's finished, get him out

 

[Evilo]

Not every rookie coach, former player and all have what it takes to be a great coach.
Arteta is out of his depth.
Some much better players are not shining as coaches either. Papin was a dreadful coach. Vieira is failing. Lots of examples.

 

[Islay1989]

He took 20% of what Pep preaches - tactical discipline, short quick passes, stretching the opponent - and ignored the rest of what actually makes Pep's teams good which is off the ball movement, smart drop-ins between the lines, etc. I'd say it doesn't help that the roster he has at his disposal isn't the brightest collection of talent unlike the teams Pep managed, but you gotta adapt to what you have. And then when they can't get through because his players stand around like tree trunks they decide to loft it in, completely ignoring the fact that they don't have an Alan Smith in there, but rather Auba or Lacazette. Ironically, the guy they ran out of the team would be great in this setup, but it is what it is.

This is a mediocre team that has kids with potential, held back by a guy who is rigid in his approach.

 

[Havre]

Would agree with most of that - even if it is early days.

Also not sure if Guardiola's football would work even for Guardiola if he had the kind of quality (or lack of) available that Arteta's got.

Tricky situation for Arteta to be in - how much of an idealist do you want to be? Maybe it pays off in the long run, but if you are already sacked then that doesn't matter.

I think Nuno at Wolverhampton might be struggling with some of the same currently - after having had success. How much do you try to replicate previous success vs. adapt to a new situation?

 

[AB13]

He took 20% of what Pep preaches - tactical discipline, short quick passes, stretching the opponent - and ignored the rest of what actually makes Pep's teams good which is off the ball movement, smart drop-ins between the lines, etc. I'd say it doesn't help that the roster he has at his disposal isn't the brightest collection of talent unlike the teams Pep managed, but you gotta adapt to what you have. And then when they can't get through because his players stand around like tree trunks they decide to loft it in, completely ignoring the fact that they don't have an Alan Smith in there, but rather Auba or Lacazette. Ironically, the guy they ran out of the team would be great in this setup, but it is what it is.

This is a mediocre team that has kids with potential, held back by a guy who is rigid in his approach.

As I said people don't seem to realise that the main problem at arsenal, identical to as it was under Emery is our refusal to pass the ball forwards through the middle. Top level coaches work on this more than anything and we completely refuse to do so, we aren't even trying.

Even if you want to only score from crosses you still have to do this because it's the only way of creating gaps in a set defence. We have not scored an open play goal in the league since October because of that. Not about playing silly passes, just not avoiding the centre of the pitch completely. If Arsenal had the best players in history at every position they still wouldn't score much considering they aren't allowed to play though the middle because of the managers tactics.

Creative players don't solve the problem. The only thing that will is a radical change in tactics.

 

[robertmac43]

Creative players don't solve the problem. The only thing that will is a radical change in tactics.

In this case I think the lack of a creative player is what keeps the tactics the way they are. If Arteta has a more creative player down the middle maybe he changes tactics to go through said player more.

At the moment he has Xhaka and Ceballos who are really only good for recycling the ball side to side. Instead of trying to get those 2 players to create through the middle of the pitch, Arteta has them rotate the ball wide to where we have good crossers of the ball. KT, Saka, and Willian (to a lesser extent) can deliver a good ball into the box and when we have possession it seems like the only way we can get a ball into the dangerous area.

Basically I don't think a change of tactics will suddenly make Xhaka or Ceballos more effective in the attack, but a change of personal may allow Arteta to change his attacking tactics.

 

[phisherman]

Saliba is athletic and used to 4 at the back.

On the one hand he should be starting. On the other hand starting now could ruin him with the immense pressure he would have right now.

If it was me I would play him and the other younger players because if you're going to lose might as well let the younger players develop.

 

[robertmac43]

On the one hand he should be starting. On the other hand starting now could ruin him with the immense pressure he would have right now.

If it was me I would play him and the other younger players because if you're going to lose might as well let the younger players develop.

I worry about how the volatile, reactionary fan base treats Saliba after a loss... Could ruin the young kids confidence.

 

[phisherman]

Also there is such a big deal about crosses. Emery was no different having the team spray passes to Kola to cross in and Liverpool have TAA and Robertson spraying crosses.

"Yeah, you could see from the chances we've created as well. A cross doesn't mean just an aerial cross. There were a lot of good parts where we penetrated the penalty box on numerous occasions, just to find the last pass or the final ball and the goal came through, we didn't hit it, they blocked it - it was a lot of things to happen. If we generate it every week we will win football matches. At the moment it looks like we need to do a lot to score a goal."

 

[Havre]

In this case I think the lack of a creative player is what keeps the tactics the way they are. If Arteta has a more creative player down the middle maybe he changes tactics to go through said player more.

At the moment he has Xhaka and Ceballos who are really only good for recycling the ball side to side. Instead of trying to get those 2 players to create through the middle of the pitch, Arteta has them rotate the ball wide to where we have good crossers of the ball. KT, Saka, and Willian (to a lesser extent) can deliver a good ball into the box and when we have possession it seems like the only way we can get a ball into the dangerous area.

Basically I don't think a change of tactics will suddenly make Xhaka or Ceballos more effective in the attack, but a change of personal may allow Arteta to change his attacking tactics.

Would think Xhaka and Ceballos are a lot more capable of that than Højbjerg and Sissoko. Not that Spurs have set a high bar at that part of the game. I think that will become quite clear when Spurs start to drop points against smaller teams - because they can't break them down or CA on them like bigger teams allow Spurs to do.

I rarely watch MOTD, but quite interesting to see how Spurs were clearly "manufacturing" space in front of the CDs by having especially Lo Celso drop deep - for then to have Son, Kane or Bergwijn to occupy the space the Arsenal central midfielders the left open behind them.

 

[Blender]

Would think Xhaka and Ceballos are a lot more capable of that than Højbjerg and Sissoko. Not that Spurs have set a high bar at that part of the game. I think that will become quite clear when Spurs start to drop points against smaller teams - because they can't break them down or CA on them like bigger teams allow Spurs to do.

I rarely watch MOTD, but quite interesting to see how Spurs were clearly "manufacturing" space in front of the CDs by having especially Lo Celso drop deep - for then to have Son, Kane or Bergwijn to occupy the space the Arsenal central midfielders the left open behind them.

I'm not so sure, Hojbjerg is pretty underrated right now. He was fantastic for Southampton, and he's been even better for Tottenham in the games I have seen. He's not the most creative player and will never be that, but he fits that destroyer roll perfectly where he covers the entire pitch looking to pressure and either make a tackle or get an interception, then looks to quickly make a direct pass forward for a counter opportunity. Of what I have seen of him last year and this year, I would put him in that same category of Kante, Ndidi, etc. where they are just work horses that can cover a huge amount of the pitch and always look to turn a change of possession into a counter.

 

[robertmac43]

Would think Xhaka and Ceballos are a lot more capable of that than Højbjerg and Sissoko. Not that Spurs have set a high bar at that part of the game. I think that will become quite clear when Spurs start to drop points against smaller teams - because they can't break them down or CA on them like bigger teams allow Spurs to do.

I rarely watch MOTD, but quite interesting to see how Spurs were clearly "manufacturing" space in front of the CDs by having especially Lo Celso drop deep - for then to have Son, Kane or Bergwijn to occupy the space the Arsenal central midfielders the left open behind them.

Probably right when it comes to offensive creativity, the crop of players listed is on similar ground. I think Hojbjerg will be effective enough in moving the ball forward, he is an efficient player.

 

[Havre]

I'm not so sure, Hojbjerg is pretty underrated right now. He was fantastic for Southampton, and he's been even better for Tottenham in the games I have seen. He's not the most creative player and will never be that, but he fits that destroyer roll perfectly where he covers the entire pitch looking to pressure and either make a tackle or get an interception, then looks to quickly make a direct pass forward for a counter opportunity. Of what I have seen of him last year and this year, I would put him in that same category of Kante, Ndidi, etc. where they are just work horses that can cover a huge amount of the pitch and always look to turn a change of possession into a counter.

Don't get me wrong - I absolutely love Højbjerg. I liked the signing because I thought he would fill a hole, but he has been sensational after the first few matches - which I never thought he would be. And as long as he is fit I am 100% certain that this Spurs team will fight to the end in every single game. It is just impossible for a Spurs player not to run himself to the ground with Højbjerg next to you. Not sure if I can remember any Spurs player have such an impact on the whole team before. Not even players like Davids. Scott Parker had some of the same qualities, but seems like Højbjerg is even better.

And he is not a terrible passer. Next to a good passer I think he could be quite OK in that department. He also has the odd very good pass, but I see a higher potential in that part of the game for Xhaka and Ceballos. It is just that everything looks a bit worse for Arsenal now. Still I believe the Norwegian Arsenal forum thinks Arsenal got better players individually than Spurs (I haven't checked myself - someone told me).

 

[AB13]

In this case I think the lack of a creative player is what keeps the tactics the way they are. If Arteta has a more creative player down the middle maybe he changes tactics to go through said player more.

At the moment he has Xhaka and Ceballos who are really only good for recycling the ball side to side. Instead of trying to get those 2 players to create through the middle of the pitch, Arteta has them rotate the ball wide to where we have good crossers of the ball. KT, Saka, and Willian (to a lesser extent) can deliver a good ball into the box and when we have possession it seems like the only way we can get a ball into the dangerous area.

Basically I don't think a change of tactics will suddenly make Xhaka or Ceballos more effective in the attack, but a change of personal may allow Arteta to change his attacking tactics.

Playing offensively the way Arteta is has never been effective. We absolutely have players to play through the middle, being able to create is as much about management than personell. Ceballos, Pepe and Willian all had great creative numbers before Arteta got his hands on them. Still, even if we want to cross we need to move the ball through the middle to create gaps in the defence, otherwise it is not possible to score. It is as simple as that.

 

[robertmac43]

Yikes: