Arsenal FC Thread

[Chimaera]

I think the manager deserves some blame. I also think there are players there that other managers would get more out of.

but if you don’t think a top manager wouldn’t go in there and clear out 7-8+ guys out of the typical team sheet alone in the first few windows, you’re crazy. Klopp and Pep would bomb out a bunch of them. Look at what they’ve done to their own squads over a few years. Klopp’s Liverpool wasn’t anywhere near what it is now. Henderson is basically all that’s left of players who played before. Sure, he got more out of some of the mugs they had, but they weren’t close to what’s there now. His record initially wasn’t that great, though you could see the plan and the effort was there. Pep and City is different (though I’d argue some of the biggest talents he has were already there), but I don’t think many clubs have the money to go out and spend a billion or whatever obscene amount on players.

I think most of the blame for me lies around scouting and development. Just what do they want to do? What is Arsenal football anymore? It used to be beautiful passing, technical football, almost to its detriment under Wenger at the end to be fair, but you knew who was and wasn’t an Arsenal footballer. At this stage, what does an Arsenal player look like? You can identify a Pep player, a Klopp guy, heck, even Jose has a type. Because they’ve had turmoil, I don’t think their scouting knows what they need to build it out. While they might have some talent, does it all fit? Do they know what they want to do tactically? They’re not a poor club, but they don’t have enough to show for what they spent. Klopp might improve players and get more out of some, but it’s just as much his scouting team behind him bringing in the quality talent to fit what he’s looking to do. Mane fits what they’re trying to do and he has improved a ton not just because of Klopp. Salah is the same. Many other players have been able to succeed because they have a base and tactical approach to build upon. They’re also the right type of player to fit in the game environment they’ll go into. I don’t know that is the case with Arsenal. We aren’t even getting into some of the salary structure and wages they have. They have too many players who aren’t going to be there (or if they are, they’re too old) for a rebuild. Will Luiz or Auba really be a massive part of the club in 3 seasons when they are trying to win stuff? There are other players at an older age in the squad as well who aren’t going to be there to win stuff. Maybe they’re there to bridge the gaps I guess, but that’s a lot of money to have on players who aren’t part of a long term plan.

 

[AB13]

That's what you're doing all day.
At some point a little wisdom has to be added
Saying Wenger had this roster is a lie.
Saying he didn't achieve top 6 is a lie.

Basically that's another point of yours that's a lie.

Business as usual.

Wenger actually overacheived with the squad he had, even towards the end. In his second to last season, he got 75 points and won the FA Cup despite having to start a few clearly sub par players every game. Without tons of injuries to key players we could have challenged for the title in 2017.

Arteta and Emery have had quite a lot more financial backing than Wenger, yet they have still been doing much worse.

 

[Evilo]

Wow so Liverpool roster changed in 4 years?
Amazing.
Tell me how many Arsenal players were here 4 years ago?

 

[robertmac43]

but if you don’t think a top manager wouldn’t go in there and clear out 7-8+ guys out of the typical team sheet alone in the first few windows, you’re crazy. Klopp and Pep would bomb out a bunch of them

I don't blame Arteta for that, Covid made it a tough market to navigate for many reasons.

 

[AB13]

I don't blame Arteta for that, Covid made it a tough market to navigate for many reasons.

Impossible to say how much managers influence transfers anyway. Edu and Kroenke probably affect it more than Arteta.

 

[Chimaera]

I clearly said I don’t think they have a squad that is as good as you said. I’ll say it again, which players play for Chelsea or Spurs. Auba, and? Heck, which would play for United or Leicester.

It isn’t just Liverpool and City, most of the competitors for top 4 have a better side, and a better manager. If you want to seize upon the Liverpool and City bit, that’s your trying to narrow something instead of defending your statement.

the manager is a problem, but I don’t think swapping to a different manager would all of a sudden make them a top 4 side. Certainly not on the fly during this season.

 

[AB13]

He understands it, but he clearly doesn't trust half of the starting lineup and thus does not give them license to play a more fluid brand of football.

Never thought of it that way, interesting way to look at it. That is still a fundamental issue with the manager, still. Any manager who plays overly systematic football will fail no matter the players. I truly believe that.

When you coach every pass and every phase and scenario on the pitch. A). Players get fed up at some point B). It takes a lot of money to execute your plan, to even see decent results you need the ideal player type in every position C.) players become dependable on system and too interdependent on another, makes it difficult to replicate it if you rotate. D) Teams can stop you from being successful by analyzing the system and countering it. Destroys all unpredictability.

 

[Chimaera]

I don't blame Arteta for that, Covid made it a tough market to navigate for many reasons.

That’s certainly true, but my argument is to the point that the squad isn’t good enough and even a top manager would change the roster. it’s not a vacuum, so we can’t really just chop and change a manager, but anyone worth anything is gonna bring in different players.


Debate of whether or not Arteta is the problem is certainly a bit premature, but who even knows how much of a say he will or won’t have in transfers.

 

[AB13]

I clearly said I don’t think they have a squad that is as good as you said. I’ll say it again, which players play for Chelsea or Spurs. Auba, and? Heck, which would play for United or Leicester.

It isn’t just Liverpool and City, most of the competitors for top 4 have a better side, and a better manager. If you want to seize upon the Liverpool and City bit, that’s your trying to narrow something instead of defending your statement.

the manager is a problem, but I don’t think swapping to a different manager would all of a sudden make them a top 4 side. Certainly not on the fly during this season.

For Chelsea Gabriel, Partey, Tierney and Aubameyang start.

For United Gabriel, Partey and Aubameyang start. Maybe Leno and maybe one of Pepe/Saka start

For Spurs Gabriel and Partey start. Maybe Auba, Leno and Tierney but probably not.

Özil could start for all clubs in the league if not exiled.

This is unnaceptable, not good enough, but Arsenal would be about even to those teams with a proper manager.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Good thing we watch games then.

And that still shows he’s a decent player.

 

[MS]

Typical.

How is it 'typical'?

What's typical is fans being in denial about how poor a roster is and thinking a manager change will be a magic quick solution that will somehow turn a bunch of mediocre players into a top-5 team.

I would love it if Arsenal were good. I've never seen them this bad. But it isn't Arteta's fault. It's the fault of 5 years of rot that happened before he arrived - terrible scouting and terrible player signings and a long dry spell from the academy. The result is that you have a crap roster composed mostly of has-beens and maybe-will-bes and totally shit Granit Xhakas. And basically no elite-calibre players aged 22-28 in the primes of their careers.

Hell, two of the only 3 or so players who are actually quality (Partey and Gabriel) were just brought in by Arteta.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

For Chelsea Gabriel, Partey, Tierney and Aubameyang start.

For United Gabriel, Partey and Aubameyang start. Maybe Leno and maybe one of Pepe/Saka start

For Spurs Gabriel and Partey start. Maybe Auba, Leno and Tierney.

Özil could start for all if not exiled.

All of this is unnaceptable but Arsenal would be about even to those teams with a proper manager.

Tierney wouldn't be part of Chelsea's best XI. Probably not Partey either. Gabriel is very arguable too.

No chance Tierney and Leno (???) would be part of Spurs best XI.

 

[AB13]

Tierney wouldn't be part of Chelsea's best XI. Probably not Partey either. Gabriel is very arguable.

Tierney and Leno wouldn't be part of Spurs XI.

Agree to disagree.

Chilwell is not a 50 million pound player. 20-25 at most, his fee does favours for his reputation. He has no standout attributes other than being good at running late into the box. Of the top 6 sides, he is the worst one starting, and I think clearly. Partey would obviously start over Kovacic/Jorginho. Chelsea are being exposed in transition in midfield because they lack athleticism, physique and power. Partey was better than him at most things there is and was probably better than Kante last year too. I don't think James is better than Bellerin clearly either.

On Leno and Tierney starting for Spurs, you might be right as I said. Both Leno / Lloris and Tierney/Reguillon are very close in comparison though and all are good players. Sucks how good your squad and coach is.

 

[Evilo]

I clearly said I don’t think they have a squad that is as good as you said. I’ll say it again, which players play for Chelsea or Spurs. Auba, and? Heck, which would play for United or Leicester.

It isn’t just Liverpool and City, most of the competitors for top 4 have a better side, and a better manager. If you want to seize upon the Liverpool and City bit, that’s your trying to narrow something instead of defending your statement.

the manager is a problem, but I don’t think swapping to a different manager would all of a sudden make them a top 4 side. Certainly not on the fly during this season.

Yes, it would. And I already gave a starting XI that's easily top 6.

 

[Evilo]

How is it 'typical'?

What's typical?
Well EPL fans being so self-centered that they evaluate a player in their EPL career only. And then making presumptuous "he sucks" sentences.

 

[AB13]

I agree. Every United fan is very reasonable. Can´t say the same for Chelsea or Liverpool. Don't know why that is.

 

[Halladay]

This is a thread about Arsenal, not other teams supporters. Take it pm if you must.

 

[Evilo]

And please link me to the Arsenal fans who aren't saying their team sucks right now.

People just make up fantasy posts. EVERY SINGLE Arsenal fan knows his team sucks right now. They just disagree the roster sucks enough to be ranked 14th. But apparently, saying that is infamy for trolls.

 

[AB13]

Well, lets not make it into a thread talking about how stupid Arsenal fans are either then. None of us have said we are good or anything. Suddenly blaming things on the manager to an extent and not saying every player for your club is shit isn't acceptable.

 

[koyvoo]

And please link me to the Arsenal fans who aren't saying their team sucks right now.

People just make up fantasy posts. EVERY SINGLE Arsenal fan knows his team sucks right now. They just disagree the roster sucks enough to be ranked 14th. But apparently, saying that is infamy for trolls.

Show me one person who is claiming they are definitely of 14th place in terms of quality.

Most level headed posters are saying it’s debatable, in terms of top 6 quality, they’re close on one side of that line or the other. And this is more than valid.

It’s the ones are saying there is no debate they definitely are top 6 quality and it’s not close or that they definitely aren’t close to top 6 quality who are proving the problems here.

 

[Evilo]

LOL.


Anyway, I'm done defending Arsenal roster, I have no interest in the matter. I hope Saliba, Lacazette and Guendouzi are sold ASAP and Pepe too (though that's not my problem). Or that Arsenal fires Arteta and finds a good coach to avoid these players wasting their prime career (and sometimes developmental) years.

 

[robertmac43]

Never thought of it that way, interesting way to look at it. That is still a fundamental issue with the manager, still. Any manager who plays overly systematic football will fail no matter the players. I truly believe that.

My guess (and hope) is that as time goes bye and Arteta has more of an opportunity to bring better players into the fold, he will shift to more fluid football.

 

[robertmac43]

Guendouzi

I can't help but think Douzi would look good beside Partey..

 

[S E P H]

I am extremely happy to see @Evilo want to make Arsenal great again.

Marco Rose is ideal if we don't get one of these. He could be close to the next Jurgen Klopp if he reaches his best case scenario.

That's a great shout considering how ridiculously good Mon'gladbach have been the last couple of seasons with him at the helm. I am not sure @cgf would want him to come to a cancer club though, good chance he probably becomes BVB's next manager after they fire the Klopp wannabe.

View attachment 377792
Same level player.

You can make an argument that Gabriel is better based on age, future development, and price. I love me some Gabriel, but paying 80 million for his quality of a defender is still brutal business. You'd be wanting at least a Laporte at minimum and hopefully a Marquinhos at maximum with that transfer.

 

[Chimaera]

I don't know that 2 or 3 players getting into a combined 11 makes them good enough.

It isn't all about the squad, but there do need to be improvements. We can't clearly see a vacuum where they swap out a manager. But they thought the squad was good enough and went and got Emery. That failed. Now, they clearly (whomever they is that is in charge) think the squad is good enough to be better under Arteta. It hasn't.

So, sure, the manager gets a lot of the blame. Though, the question I have, is who picked the manager, knowing he was going to be a project, and might take time to develop? If that person is also making talent evaluations, well, then, there you go.

There's more than enough blame to go around. But I'm not sure binning the manager, saying it's all his fault is going to yield massive results either. There's not exactly a Pep or a Klopp floating around eager to take that job either. It's one thing to say their squad is better than it's shown, and it certainly is better than 14th, but there's a debate around how much better. A couple of pieces are the start of something... but for me, they're in year one of a four or five window project. If that's the case, rubbishing the manager starts the clock over again. Is that the direction they should take?

I don't know. I really don't, and honestly, I don't like Arteta, but I don't know that you can afford to chuck him out before he even gets a full summer training camp.