Around the NHL Thread - Found the Missing #16

[super6646]

I'm sure Treliving was within a hair of making a deal for him... something obviously fell through at the last minute.
Isn't that how it usually goes? Or at least that's what we're always told?

Yup. What an unlucky bastard.

 

[JPeeper]

Don't care that other teams are loading up and we (seemingly) aren't.

I'm so sick of not having 2nd round draft picks, since the abysmal 2014 draft we have hit on Kylington, Andersson, Dube out of the 4 2nd's we have had since 2015. We haven't had a 2nd in the past three drafts and the two prior we hit on 3/4 of our picks.

 

[Anglesmith]

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. Not an overpayment but a premature move indeed

Oh yeah, totally demolished their future in this one.

 

[2023FriendshipTour]

Hopefully we send Hamonic out, as this appears to be a sellers market. This isn't our year and Toffoli wouldn't have changed that, so hopefully we get some assets back and have an aggressive off season trying to plug some holes.

 

[JPeeper]

Oh yeah, totally demolished their future in this one.

These people are clueless. Doing this once is one thing, the Canucks have traded their 1st and 2nd now, still have most of their picks. It's different than what the Flames did when they haven't had a 2nd in 3 years, didn't draft until round 4 last year and have had 5 picks in like 4 of the last 7 drafts.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

The Flames are not selling anyone.

 

[Mobiandi]

Oh yeah, totally demolished their future in this one.

Parting with a mid-1st, a mid-2nd in a supposedly strong draft, and a good propsect when you're capped out as a bubble team is poor asset management, no matter how you slice it.

 

[Rubi]

The Flames are not selling anyone.

Then that would be foolish. Hamonic ain't gonna help the Flames win the cup this year and he'll end up walking as a UFA this July (I just can't see Treliving re-signing him to another multi-year contract... or at least I hope he doesn't) if the Flames don't trade him.
Jankowski is a better asset as trade bait than he is as a Flames center.
Then we have Czarnik who obviously isn't good enough to crack this underachieving lineup, who's also a UFA this summer.

 

[DFF]

Parting with a mid-1st, a mid-2nd in a supposedly strong draft, and a good propsect when you're capped out as a bubble team is poor asset management, no matter how you slice it.

That's 2nd is not going to hurt them

And the 1st for Miller was worth it. They are not a playoff team without him

It's funny everyone says Benning is an idiot but he may have done a better job than trevling.

 

[Corpus X]

The Flames are not selling anyone.

You can't sell people. That's illegal.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Then that would be foolish. Hamonic ain't gonna help the Flames win the cup this year and he'll end up walking as a UFA this July (I just can't see Treliving re-signing him to another multi-year contract... or at least I hope he doesn't) if the Flames don't trade him.
Jankowski is a better asset as trade bait than he is as a Flames center.
Then we have Czarnik who obviously isn't good enough to crack this underachieving lineup, who's also a UFA this summer.

Not saying I agree or not, just that it ain’t happening. We’re in a playoff hunt.

 

[Volica]

Brad would be wise to use view this team the same way the year we moved Glenny at the deadline a number of years back.

move any contract that is totally unnecessary, like the Hamonic’s of the world, and see if this group can get you into the show. Unless something major comes up, there’s no reason to pay these types of prices

 

[2023FriendshipTour]

Brad would be wise to use view this team the same way the year we moved Glenny at the deadline a number of years back.

move any contract that is totally unnecessary, like the Hamonic’s of the world, and see if this group can get you into the show. Unless something major comes up, there’s no reason to pay these types of prices

I see no reason why a team wouldn't pay a 2nd for Hamonic. Heck, Brodie might even get you a 1st, but I am still hoping we re-sign him to a good deal, as he will most likely age well unlike Hamonic, who is already regressing.

 

[DFF]

Brad is scouting tanking teams bottom pairing dmen right now

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Toffoli for a 2nd round pick, Tim Schaller, and Tyler Madden

Very fair price. Essentially, a 2nd, Ruzicka and say, Rieder. I'm happy to keep the picks but I wouldn't have been upset at that price, assuming Toffoli was willing to re-sign for something reasonable.

Madden is closer to Pettersen than Ruzicka. He's putting up REALLY good numbers in the NCAA.

 

[Figgy44]

That's 2nd is not going to hurt them

And the 1st for Miller was worth it. They are not a playoff team without him

It's funny everyone says Benning is an idiot but he may have done a better job than trevling.

For the Benning thing, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Look up the pre-season expectations. Vancouver was expected to be absolutely meh. California cratering so drastically was not expected.

 

[Figgy44]

That's 2nd is not going to hurt them

And the 1st for Miller was worth it. They are not a playoff team without him

It's funny everyone says Benning is an idiot but he may have done a better job than trevling.

TL;DR - This comment annoys me to no end and more Flames fans need to consider Flames ownership meddling is much more serious than realized.

This comment bugs me more than it should.

Honestly speaking. No matter how you slice it, even with ownership meddling, at least the Aquamen allowed a full on rebuild. Let us not forget that in 2015, Flames ownership demanded playoffs vs rebuild during the Connor McDavid sweepstakes. 2015 would have been a perfect year to rebuild. The team seems always to be missing these good years and throwing picks into the fire in years like 2013. Ownership meddling that seriously restricts this team is a serious, serious problem that is quietly ignored. I'd consider it to be up there in the top tier with teams like Ottawa. At least Melnyk allows both retention and buyouts even if he's dirt cheap on real cash salary. Then on the other end of the spectrum you have teams like the Yotes which had to live off of a shoestring budget for a long time, but at least ownership let the GM do what needed to be done. Mediocrity, sure. But if they had full resources like the Flames currently have, it's likely they wouldn't have been as mediocre for so long.

I guess the only thing I can defend ownership on is that they had to do this because of the insane landscape left by Sutter and Feaster and perhaps a little bit Burke as GM. But sooner or later, you have to let your guys fly. I think Treliving trading futures is hugely influenced by a ownership playoff mandate if I am not mistaken.

Treliving at least has learned to fight back against ownership and ownership has ceeded some ground, but I am pretty sure there are some serious things that ownership has not ceeded that really handcuff Tre. Salary retention is one and refusal to pay management (Treliving himself and a coach is likely the other spotlight position) are the main ones for now. I think Treliving at least is willing to deal with the issue mainly because he gets to be GM and secondly he gets to tinker around with the development side (ie: AHL alignment, player development and improvement) which is something near and dear to his heart.

In the words of Flames fans and outside fans for many seasons after 2015, unsustainable. To say Benning is a good GM due to a flash in a pan and things working out better than expected with ownership meddling is laughable.

/rant end

 

[Figgy44]

Yup. What an unlucky bastard.

I'm sure he held strong with a Jankowski, Czarnik and 4th offer that was beaten at 11 PM Pacific time last night.

 

[DFF]

For the Benning thing, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Look up the pre-season expectations. Vancouver was expected to be absolutely meh. California cratering so drastically was not expected.

Don't be a blind Homer. It's not unreasonable to say the nucks and the flames are on the same boat. One can easily argue which team is better. On top of that you can also argue which core is better... sorry just speaking truth.

 

[Figgy44]

Don't be a blind Homer. It's not unreasonable to say the nucks and the flames are on the same boat. One can easily argue which team is better. On top of that you can also argue which core is better... sorry just speaking truth.

I'm not a blind homer. Treliving has done far more than Benning and isn't a puppet. I'm fine with you saying that Benning has ended up in a better situation than Treliving, but I vehemently disagree that Benning is a better GM. We can disagree without someone being called a homer.

Treliving has accomplished the following even with ownership meddling (assume meddling level equal between Vancouver and Calgary)

- Asked to compete in playoffs with an NHL core and farm system inferior to the 2019-2020 Ottawa Senators. Dude started very deeply in a hole that was slignificantly closer to a crator than a divot.
- Overhauled the farm system so our damn players aren't in Adirondack and experiencing one of the absolute worst travels of all AHL teams out there. (Vancouver's system was already decent and in place)
- Brought in an ECHL team (Kansas) which improves our farm system footprint and allows us to improve our control of prospects.
- Improved the support systems for our prospects vastly including substance abuse, off ice training, nutrition etc. Even if the prospects don't follow it, at least they can't complain they don't have the tools. I also suspect that hazing has been quietly nipped as well.
- Improved farm systems hopefully should help greatly in our historical failure to develop goalies. Many of which were lost to injuries (Gilles), mental illness (Parsons) and perhaps a form of treatment akin to bullying which destroyed confidence (Troy Ward didn't have the nicest stories coming from him for the way he treated Irving and Karlsson IIRC). Also, after a bit of digging for whatever damn reason, a few of us realized none of our goalies in the last 5-6 seasons ever spent more than 1-2 seasons with the same goalie coach.
- Navigated not one but two exceptionally huge off ice issues. 1. Wideman (with the aid of Burke), 2. Peters. Most teams are unfortunate with one of these types of events, let alone two.
- Vancouver has in the past paid for high profile coaches (Torts and AV), Flames ownership I do not believe have ever done that.
- He has done this and retained a reasonable cap situation. Tight, but not horridly handcuffed like other teams.

This list alone is not encompassing of everything but IMO kinda shows that Treliving showed up to a situation that was a bit more of a rock climbing situation that uphill battle hiking situation. That's not a homer comment if outside fans bases in general would generally agree it's a very difficult situation that Benning would not have been exposed to at the same level. You on the other hand are focusing purely on the on ice results without looking at context. One does not easily say one situation is similar to the other. Treliving is dealing with a significantly more difficult situation than Benning who is already is a difficult situation.

I have literally no issue with your comments that the 2019-2020 Canucks are doing better than the Flames. I have everything against you saying Benning > Treliving with nothing but the close Pacific race with the Vancouver ahead of the Flames.

You literally had nothing to argue, so you threw homer at my comment. If you cannot at least read this post with a little bit of enlightenment, I'm not going to spit the same word back at you. I'm going to literally call you lazy and ignorant.

 

[Mobiandi]

Boeser's done for the season. Guess the hope is that Toffoli fills that hole rather than supplementing their playoff push

 

[DCDM]

I would have paid a 3rd for DeMelo. He's quietly having a solid season and could essentially replace Hamonic for much cheaper.

 

[Calculon]

The only real difference between the Canucks and the Flames is that the former lucked out and drafted an elite franchise centremen while the latter did not and instead decided to build around a winger, again.

Benning's a terrific scout but he's mediocre to outright awful in everything else. To say otherwise, is just, well, sad. It really takes some incredibly myopic grass-is-greener-on-the-other-side type mentality to think the guy who signed Eriksson for 6m x 6yrs, Sutter for 4.375m x 5yrs, Beagle for 3m x 4yrs, Roussel for 3m x 4yrs, and Myers for 6m x 5yrs is doing a good job managing. That's literally 25% of the cap in poorly utilized salary. Meanwhile, some Flames fan are losing their minds over Treliving's ~8M (Lucic+Stone & Brower's buyouts) in wasted space.

 

[Mobiandi]

The Leafs' biggest issue has been team defense so naturally they seem to be interested in Ristolainen after having traded for Barrie. Dubas seems to like to do everything on hard mode

 

[SKRusty]

The Leafs' biggest issue has been team defense so naturally they seem to be interested in Ristolainen after having traded for Barrie. Dubas seems to like to do everything on hard mode

Toronto's largest problem is a collection of talented stars. There is no team.

Until the players quit worrying about individual accolades and start creating a team working for team goals they will be the 2007-2015 Washington Capitals.