OT: Around the NHL: The Countdown to Camp

[Deutschland Dangler]

On the other hand, the Hawks do probably want to keep their best scorer. So I would think they will see how it plays out before making a decision.

I certainly wouldn't want to be the one making this decision. If he's charged, they're in for a world of hurt, one way or the other.

 

[Penguinator]

As reported by the Buffalo News, the alleged rape victim was also bitten on her shoulder... Wow. Says she & her friend were invited by Kane to his place & he followed her into a room where the assault apparently happened. My source is in French but i'm sure someone can link this properly.

 

[systemsgo]

As reported by the Buffalo News, the alleged rape victim was also bitten on her shoulder... Wow. Says she & her friend were invited by Kane to his place & he followed her into a room where the assault apparently happened. My source is in French but i'm sure someone can link this properly.

here: http://www.buffalonews.com/city-reg...ations-against-nhl-star-patrick-kane-20150809

I dislike the portion of the article which quotes the bar owner, because the bar owner basically can't verify if it's the same woman, yet he heavily implies that she was all over PKane and makes it seem like she was asking for it - and that she followed him out? It makes him come off badly.

 

[Ogrezilla]

As reported by the Buffalo News, the alleged rape victim was also bitten on her shoulder... Wow. Says she & her friend were invited by Kane to his place & he followed her into a room where the assault apparently happened. My source is in French but i'm sure someone can link this properly.

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-reg...ations-against-nhl-star-patrick-kane-20150809

Basically, this is a long article that has pretty much no information of any real value. 2/3 of it is interviewing the owner of the bar they were at before going to Kane's house.

here: http://www.buffalonews.com/city-reg...ations-against-nhl-star-patrick-kane-20150809

I dislike the portion of the article which quotes the bar owner, because the bar owner basically can't verify if it's the same woman, yet he heavily implies that she was all over PKane and makes it seem like she was asking for it - and that she followed him out? It makes him come off badly.

Its pretty terrible writing/reporting. The owner was probably just answering the questions he was asked to answer.

“I don’t know if this is the same woman who made the rape allegation against him,” Croce said. “I only know what I saw that night on my own premises. If you’re going to ask what happened between them after they left that night, how would I know?”

 

[Penguinator]

Thanks anyway, the mods don't like unlinked or unreadable sources.

Assault coud be proven by retrieving Kane's DNA from her shoulder or from his mouth (piece of flesh stuck between his teeth). She also has a mark on her leg, if he scratched her there might be evidence under his nails. Pure speculation/CSI.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Thanks anyway, the mods don't like unlinked or unreadable sources.

Assault coud be proven by retrieving Kane's DNA from her shoulder or from his mouth (piece of flesh stuck between his teeth). She also has a mark on her leg, if he scratched her there might be evidence under his nails. Pure speculation/CSI.

Neither of those would be proof of anything nonconsensual though, would they? I mean, they could be evidence in that direction, but not conclusive.

Serious question: does a rape kit show anything other than whether or not they had sex?

 

[systemsgo]

Neither of those would be proof of anything nonconsensual though, would they? I mean, they could be evidence in that direction, but not conclusive.

Serious question: does a rape kit show anything other than whether or not they had sex?

It can show some other things. They clip your nails to try to get DNA from under the fingernails (also not proof of anything), take photos of the women naked to photograph all the outward bruises and scratches, check from vaginal (or anal) tearing, bruising etc.

http://time.com/3001467/heres-what-happens-when-you-get-a-rape-kit-exam/

If it's violent or rough, they can tell that too. But it's not conclusive, sadly.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It can show some other things. They clip your nails to try to get DNA from under the fingernails (also not proof of anything), take photos of the women naked to photograph all the outward bruises and scratches, check from vaginal (or anal) tearing, bruising etc.

http://time.com/3001467/heres-what-happens-when-you-get-a-rape-kit-exam/

If it's violent or rough, they can tell that too. But it's not conclusive, sadly.

gotcha. I'd assume in most date rape type of cases, it doesn't end up proving a whole lot.

 

[Darth Vitale]

I didn't even bother reading the extensive bar owner comments because it's pretty close to being 100% irrelevant. At best all he can do is say Kane had __ drinks and woman had ___ drinks and even that is likely a guess. Even if he's right, all it does is add the context of whatever it was that happened later, with the influence of more or less alcohol. None of which matters or affects the severity of the crime being alleged. Being drunk isn't like being mentally handicapped where we can say "oh this person didn't fully know what they were doing because they were drinking before, so they're not guilty or they're only sorta guilty."

Seriously who gives a flying **** what some (likely Kane supporting) bar owner says? Was the crime alleged to have taken place in the bar when the bar owner was there? Did Kane threaten to rape her while in the bar, within earshot of the owner? No? Then I don't give a **** what the bar owner says and neither should anyone else. As noted, that smacks of garbage reporting. I won't waste my time.

That being said, nobody knows anything for sure right now so nobody should be judging Kane guilty or innocent. At best you can say he's exhibited poor judgement on numerous occasions in the past, but it becomes a pretty big leap from there to rapist without clear published evidence, so let's not go there.

Also I stood by what I said earlier. IF it turns out that more evidence is revealed, AND he goes to trial for this. . . if I'm the Hawks I wash my hands of the guy.

 

[Penguinator]

Darth, i understand its a big leap from assaulting a cab driver to rape but it's not that big of a leap from assault to... assault though.

My guess is that this will end up with a settlement so Kane can avoid a civil case if the 1st one doesn't work out for his alleged victim.

This said, Kane is a major a-hole when it comes to drinking...

I could see him getting drunk & **** up someone's life again.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I didn't even bother reading the extensive bar owner comments because it's pretty close to being 100% irrelevant. At best all he can do is say Kane had __ drinks and woman had ___ drinks and even that is likely a guess. Even if he's right, all it does is add the context of whatever it was that happened later, with the influence of more or less alcohol. None of which matters or affects the severity of the crime being alleged. Being drunk isn't like being mentally handicapped where we can say "oh this person didn't fully know what they were doing because they were drinking before, so they're not guilty or they're only sorta guilty."

Seriously who gives a flying **** what some (likely Kane supporting) bar owner says? Was the crime alleged to have taken place in the bar when the bar owner was there? Did Kane threaten to rape her while in the bar, within earshot of the owner? No? Then I don't give a **** what the bar owner says and neither should anyone else. As noted, that smacks of garbage reporting. I won't waste my time.

That being said, nobody knows anything for sure right now so nobody should be judging Kane guilty or innocent. At best you can say he's exhibited poor judgement on numerous occasions in the past, but it becomes a pretty big leap from there to rapist without clear published evidence, so let's not go there.

he doesn't even know if the girl he was hanging with at the bar is the girl he went home with. For what its worth, the bar owner seems to agree with you that since nothing happened in his bar, he doesn't know anything that matters.

Also I stood by what I said earlier. IF it turns out that more evidence is revealed, AND he goes to trial for this. . . if I'm the Hawks I wash my hands of the guy.

I mean, if they think he did it than yeah, I'd agree. It would really depend on the evidence I guess. If they believe he's innocent, I don't see why going to trial should be enough to wash their hands of him.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Darth, i understand its a big leap from assaulting a cab driver to rape but it's not that big of a leap from assault to... assault though.

My guess is that this will end up with a settlement so Kane can avoid a civil case if the 1st one doesn't work out for his alleged victim.

This said, Kane is a major a-hole when it comes to drinking...

I could see him getting drunk & **** up someone's life again.

I could see him getting drunk and having consensual sex with a girl too. Neither of us knows nearly enough to make an informed opinion on this situation.

 

[MeticulouslyDishevel]

here: http://www.buffalonews.com/city-reg...ations-against-nhl-star-patrick-kane-20150809

I dislike the portion of the article which quotes the bar owner, because the bar owner basically can't verify if it's the same woman, yet he heavily implies that she was all over PKane and makes it seem like she was asking for it - and that she followed him out? It makes him come off badly.

I agree. It gives the impression to some of the mouth breathers that she was asking for it.

With no new progress on the case it looks like they're trying to write an article and need to add something to what we already know, which is nearly nothing.

 

[MeticulouslyDishevel]

I didn't even bother reading the extensive bar owner comments because it's pretty close to being 100% irrelevant. At best all he can do is say Kane had __ drinks and woman had ___ drinks and even that is likely a guess. Even if he's right, all it does is add the context of whatever it was that happened later, with the influence of more or less alcohol. None of which matters or affects the severity of the crime being alleged. Being drunk isn't like being mentally handicapped where we can say "oh this person didn't fully know what they were doing because they were drinking before, so they're not guilty or they're only sorta guilty."

Seriously who gives a flying **** what some (likely Kane supporting) bar owner says? Was the crime alleged to have taken place in the bar when the bar owner was there? Did Kane threaten to rape her while in the bar, within earshot of the owner? No? Then I don't give a **** what the bar owner says and neither should anyone else. As noted, that smacks of garbage reporting. I won't waste my time.

That being said, nobody knows anything for sure right now so nobody should be judging Kane guilty or innocent. At best you can say he's exhibited poor judgement on numerous occasions in the past, but it becomes a pretty big leap from there to rapist without clear published evidence, so let's not go there.

Also I stood by what I said earlier. IF it turns out that more evidence is revealed, AND he goes to trial for this. . . if I'm the Hawks I wash my hands of the guy.

The bar owner did the interview purely out of self-interest because it looks bad that his establishment is in any way linked to a crime. He wanted to emphasize that he didn't over serve Kane, and that the bar didn't fail to meet any duty of care to the (alleged) victim (i.e. it's not like she was passed out or that she was trying to get him to leave her alone and security should have intervened).

Even if she was "all over him" at the bar it doesn't have anything to do with whether she consented back at his house.

 

[Penguinator]

I could see him getting drunk and having consensual sex with a girl too. Neither of us knows nearly enough to make an informed opinion on this situation.

Its a presomption party starring circumstancial evidences at this point.

To me there's 3 levels of sports drunk celebs stupidity:

LVL1 ROR (DUI could have been much more disastrous though!)
LVL2 KANE (displays violent behaviour under influence, dangerous)
LVL3 ??? (someone will eventually die if it didn't happen already)

 

[Darth Vitale]

Darth, i understand its a big leap from assaulting a cab driver to rape but it's not that big of a leap from assault to... assault though.

It is a big leap from assaulting a cabbie which amounts to cursing at him and taking a swipe at him, and forcibly committing sexual assault on someone in your home. Those two scenarios have the word "assault" in common but not much else. The legal system really should come up with some better words to make the nature of the crimes more clear. Assault, battery, all that stuff. I think it can even mean different things in different states.

This said, Kane is a major a-hole when it comes to drinking...
I could see him getting drunk & **** up someone's life again.

Kane is an bona-fide idiot, point blank. I've always thought that to be the case but tried to cut him some slack the last couple years as he seemed to be calming down. Nope. Typical hot shot kid with a big ego who has a really hard time putting things into the proper perspective and seeing himself objectively. He's moved past the "immature rookie stuff" to something else entirely. Can't make excuses for him any longer like "oh when I was a 2x year old I did dumb stuff too so it's all good."

But even so, until there's legit published evidence (and that means from a legit paper like the NYT or Chicago Tribune) we can't leap to the worst case conclusion. If it turns out he did this, then great. Pile on and pile the insults high; the more the merrier. Until then we're all pretty much in the dark (whether your inclination is to vote him a criminal or a targeted celebrity – either conclusion right now is equally meaningless.)

 

[HandshakeLine]

A lot of weird myths about false positives in this thread.

 

[Allie Kitsune]

I could see him getting drunk and having consensual sex with a girl too. Neither of us knows nearly enough to make an informed opinion on this situation.

I think most laws have been written in a way that it's impossible for a woman to give consent if she's drunk.

Even if she says 'yes', it doesn't matter, because she was drunk.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think most laws have been written in a way that it's impossible for a woman to give consent if she's drunk.

Even if she says 'yes', it doesn't matter, because she was drunk.

That's not the case with the law unless she's damn near blackout drunk. That is a common rule for colleges though.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I think most laws have been written in a way that it's impossible for a woman to give consent if she's drunk.

Even if she says 'yes', it doesn't matter, because she was drunk.

That may be the most sexist thing I have ever heard.

Granted I can see where someone can be so out of it drunk (ie even unconscious) where as a fact basis a reasonable person could not assume consent.

But the way you just read 'most laws' the assumption is that women are no better than children or small animals.

And why just 'women'? If that were the reading of the law any male who had a couple of drinks could charge a woman with raping him as well also, no?

OMG, she got me drunk and had her way with me!!!!! Put her away for life!

Now again granted I could see some universities having readings like this. Universities have completely gone off the deep end.

But the law would need a whole lot more factually than childlike woman who as a gender are presumed too dumb to know better had a couple of drinks so need to be protected from themselves.

 

[Ogrezilla]

There are a significant amount of colleges and universities that do in fact put the responsibility solely on the guy. They are mostly the same colleges that have a guilty until proven innocent rule in place with rape accusations.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

There are a significant amount of colleges and universities that do in fact put the responsibility solely on the guy. They are mostly the same colleges that have a guilty until proven innocent rule in place with rape accusations.

As I said, perhaps the most sexist policy I have heard of that sets women back a century and a half to the Victorian era. Women are perceived as no better than mindless children incapable of making choices, good or bad, for themselves.

 

[Ogrezilla]

As I said, perhaps the most sexist policy I have heard of that sets women back a century and a half to the Victorian era. Women are perceived as no better than mindless children incapable of making choices, good or bad, for themselves.

yeah its ridiculous

 

[Shady Machine]

As I said, perhaps the most sexist policy I have heard of that sets women back a century and a half to the Victorian era. Women are perceived as no better than mindless children incapable of making choices, good or bad, for themselves.

It may be a sexist policy, but it's in place on college campuses for a reason. There are still a huge number of sexual assaults on college campuses. We still have a culture of blame the victim and calling a woman derogatory names for sleeping around while the man is generally seen in a positive light. When you have a culture like that on college campuses, you have to have policies in place to protect women, even if they seem sexist.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I am sorry for the following rant, but this is something I got to get off my chest:

I am sick and tired of the dumb idiots who will say things like "Oh, she followed him home, she had to know that he hadn't invited her over to play cards" or stupid things like that (she is a tease, etc). Especially when these people use "it didn't excuse what he did, but...", that's like saying "I am not racist/homophobe, I have a Black/gay friend." The girl claims she has been assaulted, she is the (alleged) victim here. If you bring a girl home and she says no, well, too bad, but it is no. Sure, you might see her as a tease and be frustrated, but that doesn't mean you have the right to rape her and even less that SHE is responsible for what happened.

Fortunately, I haven't see it a lot here, but on Facebook, GOSH! I would punch those people. Then people will claim that society is equal. BS!

Kane might not be guilty at all, but let's not act as if the GIRL is to blame here, god damn! Oh, and even if a someone says "yes" and THEN, in the heat of the moment, changes her mind and YOU DON'T STOP and FORCE HER to continue, it is rape.

Sorry again for the rant.