Around the NHL 2025 playoff edition

[Guttersniped]

I don’t think it’s a big deal if he comes back in a role where he has absolutely zero influence or control over anything. There’s a lot of former GM’s who are in these roles around the league.

If he’s in any position of consequence or power with us I’d absolutely feel the same way as you.

He may not even wanna come back and be a peasant on the Devils though, whereas he may accept that role with any other team.

I don’t see Lou taking an advisory role with a NHL team, he’s always had zero interest in working with others executives.

He been a GM for almost 40 years and Management Tree (to steal a term typically used for coaches) is non-existent.

Lou didn’t have any AGMs in New Jersey, he just had his son and cap guru/numbers guy as his two VPs.

He was forced to share power in Toronto under Shanahan for 3 years. He inherited Kyle Dubas and Mark Hunter, they were both hired under Dave Nonis.

He was supposed to “mentor” his AGM Dubas, and instead he basically ignored him, to point where he reportedly stopped speaking to him.

And when he got full control of a team again as Isles President/GM, he went right back to working with his son and his original cap guru/numbers guy. This time they were AGMs and instead he didn’t have VPs.

It’s always been kind of wild to me that Lou never hired anyone who became a GM.

Note: I know these are just written up as lists, and not trees, but I didn’t know what else to call it.

David Poile’s Management Tree (future GMs hired under him):
With WSH:
Barry Trotz
Bryan Murray
Doug MacLean
With NSH:
Ray Shiro (previously Ottawa AGM)
Paul Fenton (previously Scout w/ ANA)

Ken Holland Management Tree (future GMs hired under him):
With Detroit:
Don Waddell
Jim Nill (previously scout w/ OTT)
Pat Verbeek
Steve Yzerman
With Edmonton:
Steve Staios

Ray Shero Management Tree (future GMs hired under him):
With Pittsburgh:
Chuck Fletcher (previously AGM w/ ANA)
Jason Botterill (previously scout w/ DAL)
Patrick Allvin (previously Euro scout w/ MTL)
Bill Guerin
Tom Fitzgerald

Dean Lombardi Management Tree (future GMs hired under him):
With San Jose:
Doug Wilson
With Los Angeles:
Ron Hextall (previously PHI’s Dir of Player Personnel)
Rob Blake

Lou Lamoriello Management Tree (future GMs hired under him):
None (that I know of)

 

[devilsblood]

They aren’t going to say that they supported their friends but didn’t want to participate themselves. Where are the grownups in all this? How come nobody in charge is on trial for anything?

Weren't these guys all 18+?

At one point I do remember reading about an "adult" in the mix earlier in the night. When they were at the bar I think. But it sounds like the illegal stuff happened way after midnight.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Yeah definitely losers…I guess they can’t get a girl to actually want them so instead they take advantage of someone who doesn’t have all their faculties. What the f*** kind of ghouls even get off on that? The whole point of getting physical with someone else is the thrill of the other person wanting it too…if that doesn’t matter to you then just go f*** a blow up doll, you get the same result without harming anyone else.

Dirtbags.

 

[Triumph]

Lou Lamoriello Management Tree (future GMs hired under him):
None (that I know of)

I was going to say Marshall Johnston but looks like his term here preceded Lou. And yeah, an incredibly strange legacy in that regard that he wanted no successors.

 

[njdevils1982]

Yeah definitely losers…I guess they can’t get a girl to actually want them so instead they take advantage of someone who doesn’t have all their faculties. What the f*** kind of ghouls even get off on that? The whole point of getting physical with someone else is the thrill of the other person wanting it too…if that doesn’t matter to you then just go f*** a blow up doll, you get the same result without harming anyone else.

Dirtbags.

zappa said it...."three holes, no waiting"

 

[Bleedred]

I don’t see Lou taking an advisory role with a NHL team, he’s always had zero interest in working with others executives.

He been a GM for almost 40 years and Management Tree (to steal a term typically used for coaches) is non-existent.

Lou didn’t have any AGMs in New Jersey, he just had his son and cap guru/numbers guy as his two VPs.

He was forced to share power in Toronto under Shanahan for 3 years. He inherited Kyle Dubas and Mark Hunter, they were both hired under Dave Nonis.

He was supposed to “mentor” his AGM Dubas, and instead he basically ignored him, to point where he reportedly stopped speaking to him.

And when he got full control of a team again as Isles President/GM, he went right back to working with his son and his original cap guru/numbers guy. This time they were AGMs and instead he didn’t have VPs.

It’s always been kind of wild to me that Lou never hired anyone who became a GM.

Note: I know these are just written up as lists, and not trees, but I didn’t know what else to call it.

David Poile’s Management Tree (future GMs hired under him):
With WSH:
Barry Trotz
Bryan Murray
Doug MacLean
With NSH:
Ray Shiro (previously Ottawa AGM)
Paul Fenton (previously Scout w/ ANA)

Ken Holland Management Tree (future GMs hired under him):
With Detroit:
Don Waddell
Jim Nill (previously scout w/ OTT)
Pat Verbeek
Steve Yzerman
With Edmonton:
Steve Staios

Ray Shero Management Tree (future GMs hired under him):
With Pittsburgh:
Chuck Fletcher (previously AGM w/ ANA)
Jason Botterill (previously scout w/ DAL)
Patrick Allvin (previously Euro scout w/ MTL)
Bill Guerin
Tom Fitzgerald

Dean Lombardi Management Tree (future GMs hired under him):
With San Jose:
Doug Wilson
With Los Angeles:
Ron Hextall (previously PHI’s Dir of Player Personnel)
Rob Blake

Lou Lamoriello Management Tree (future GMs hired under him):
None (that I know of)

I guess Dubas technically doesn’t fall under him because his time with the Leafs and as AGM preceded Lou by a year?

 

[sabremike]

32 years ago today: MAYDAY!

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

um, huh?

 

[Guttersniped]

I guess Dubas technically doesn’t fall under him because his time with the Leafs and as AGM preceded Lou by a year?

Yeah, I was listing hires.

As a GM/President Lou’s never hired anyone who could realistically be a successor. (No offense to Chris Lams lol.)

My main point was I don’t see Lou in an advisor role, without power, because he’s clearly always disliked that.

I can’t find the article where someone discussed him literally not talking to Dubas but James Mirtle had a number of articles about the fraught relationship between Lou and Dubas, who Lou was supposed to “mentor”.

I highlighted some key passages in bold if you don’t want to read all the quotes here.

This is a May 2017 Athletic article from Mirtle, (who who was pretty obviously getting direct leaks from Dubas or his camp) when Colorado was thinking about hiring Dubas.

The third reason is one of the worst kept secrets in the NHL. The Leafs’ front office is full of division and disagreement, even as the team has excelled and exceeded expectations on the ice. There’s a circle of power and influence that’s being contested by a lot of big personalities – Lou Lamoriello, Mike Babcock, Mark Hunter etc. – and the results aren’t always pretty.

One result of that is Dubas’ voice has been marginalized. ‌‌‌How much is hard to say given we’re not in the room when big decisions are made, but it appears he’s relegated mostly to running the Toronto Marlies and overseeing the Leafs’ analytics team. He is also, as Elliotte Friedman has termed it, serving a long sentence in media jail. (I haven’t spoken to Dubas privately in a long time, including for this story.)

And the mentorship arrangement, with Dubas groomed under Lamoriello as his successor, never happened.

All of that is out there in hockey circles, being speculated on regularly by other executives and agents. They know they don’t get calls from Dubas anymore, the way they used to. They know Lamoriello-run teams are Lamoriello-run teams, with little collaboration. Some of them said this would happen when Lamoriello was hired and are now saying “I told you so!”

That’s why I’ve thought for months this might be the year the Leafs lost Dubas to another organization, one willing to give him more power and say in how things are done.

But I was wrong. He is staying.

This is where we move from pieced-together bits of information to speculation. Many outside of the Leafs organization expected Dubas to leave this spring. I had people suggesting it was going to happen as recently as a few days ago. It certainly appears that Lamoriello, Hunter and Babcock have largely taken over, even just by looking at what the organization did at last year’s draft and with some of the roster decisions.

The Leafs’ large analytics department – and by extension Dubas – doesn’t seem to be playing as active a role as they did in previous years.

What everyone wants to know with Toronto, however, is what happens post-Lamoriello? He is 75 years old in October. The end of his tenure with the Devils was not good, and the decisions that the Leafs need to make as they exit rebuild mode are going to get tougher.

The only succession plan that has ever been talked about publicly was early on in his tenure, when it was assumed that Dubas would take over when Lamoriello’s deal as GM ran out in the summer of 2018. (Lamoriello was very candid on this in his opening press conference: “If he doesn’t become a GM here — I’m not going to be here for a lifetime — it’s going to be his fault.”)

Even though the relationship between Dubas and some members of the front office might be strained, all that ultimately matters is what Shanahan wants here.

I have seen it reported elsewhere that the Leafs wouldn’t stand in Dubas’ way if he wanted to move on, but it certainly looks like that’s what happened here. It looks like Shanahan wants to keep him. It looks like the broader front office plan that was outlined a couple years ago, with Dubas eventually taking over, remains the same.

My money is still on him being the Leafs’ next general manager.

Mirtle: What is really going on with Kyle Dubas and the Maple Leafs?

The Kyle Dubas situation was destined to become a major story for the Maple Leafs this spring. Reason No. 1 was the fact his contract – a deal he signed at 28 years old, right out of junior hockey, in president Brendan Shanahan’s first few months – was up after three years. He had an obvious...

www.nytimes.com

This is from a March 2018 Mirtle article about who will be the next Leafs GM after Lou’s contract runs out.

One of the catalysts for that conversation was because other teams came sniffing around Shanahan’s wunderkind executive. The Colorado Avalanche offered Dubas a job running their hockey operations, which set off rumours last May that he was as good as gone.

He didn’t leave, however. Shanahan didn’t let him. Dubas had signed a new two-year deal months before that point, in large part because he had his first child on the way and his family was comfortable in the Greater Toronto Area. He also believed he would have an out if another team came calling with a more senior position.

That wasn’t how it played out, which goes back to that meeting, with Shanahan laying out the future of the organization’s brain trust. A future that Shanahan wanted Dubas to be a part of.

There are a million layers to this issue. One of the most complicated ones is the fact that three men — Lamoriello, Dubas and Mark Hunter — all seem to want to be the GM of the Leafs.

2. Dubas is named GM.
Lamoriello would, in theory, become a senior advisor or some such thing, like the role that Cliff Fletcher has currently. Those who know Lamoriello will say that this isn’t a great fit for him, as he likes to have control over personnel decisions, team culture and everything else. He didn’t last long, for example, as an advisor to Ray Shero in New Jersey. And pushing Lamoriello out against his will would be a very difficult call for Shanahan given they have been so close going back to when Lou’s Devils drafted him 31 years ago.

Dubas’ relationship with Lamoriello has been complicated throughout their time together. It’s less apprentice and mentor as it is two big personalities from different generations vying for oxygen in a confined space. (Having Mike Babcock and Hunter also in the same box doesn’t help.)

What’s made it manageable is there isn’t as much overlap, given Dubas has remained largely focused on the Marlies, player development and the analytics team. There is a lot to do in a big organization, and he has his plate.

Mirtle: Will Kyle Dubas be the next GM of the Maple Leafs? And should he?

The fine details are a little uncertain, as tends to be the case with this team. No one seems to know exactly when the meeting happened or who all was in the room. But at some point, Maple Leafs president Brendan Shanahan sat down with both Lou Lamoriello and Kyle Dubas and laid out the...

www.nytimes.com

 

[NjDevsRR]

um, huh?

What was the tweet? Seems it was deleted

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

it was deleted, damn

yeah it was about how the Hockey Canada trial was declared a mistrial, but will still continue tomorrow. Didn't really make sense.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

it was deleted, damn

yeah it was about how the Hockey Canada trial was declared a mistrial, but will still continue tomorrow. Didn't really make sense.

A mistrial can happen if a ton of jurors are dismissed, I'm pretty sure. I doubt there was a mistrial for something else this early in the case.

The publicity of the case is going to make pretty damn hard to do in Canada but hopefully they find 12 people who can hear the case.

 

[My3Sons]

A mistrial can happen if a ton of jurors are dismissed, I'm pretty sure. I doubt there was a mistrial for something else this early in the case.

The publicity of the case is going to make pretty damn hard to do in Canada but hopefully they find 12 people who can hear the case.

Something happened yesterday that was serious enough the court ordered it not be publicly reported. Maybe they dismiss the entire jury and start again? So far I think all they did was openings and maybe some motions?

 

[Billdo]

and tbh fire Fitz too for holding a press conference for himself the day after this shit came out

This is going under the radar too much for me. This asshole went out and had a press conference for his own benefit to try and hide this stuff.

 

[Bleedred]

This is going under the radar too much for me. This asshole went out and had a press conference for his own benefit to try and hide this stuff.

It was a total pattern interrupt though.

Sounded like some scam PR move that his/their advisors told them to do.

Honestly, f*** Blitzer too. I don’t put that all on Fitz. Blitzer is also guilty for going through with that.

 

[NjDevsRR]

From the players agent:

 

[Mgd31]

What is the above talking about? He signed a 2 year ELC

 

[The 29th Pick]

Something happened yesterday that was serious enough the court ordered it not be publicly reported. Maybe they dismiss the entire jury and start again? So far I think all they did was openings and maybe some motions?

A new trial is scheduled to begin later today with a new jury of 14 members

Judge declares mistrial in London hockey case | TSN

Justice Maria Carroccia has declared a mistrial in the trial of five former members of Canada’s 2018 world junior hockey team.

www.tsn.ca

 

[NjDevsRR]

What is the above talking about? He signed a 2 year ELC

Contract still hasn’t been registered apparently. Lots of stuff swirling on the reddits and twitters of the world

Lots of verified hockey folks reshared these quotes but now some are questioning it.

 

[My3Sons]

From the players agent:
View attachment 1022499

I’m guessing they want his contract to start next season to get two years of ELC and he wants one year. Carolina cannot help themselves sometimes

 

[jkrdevil]

Holding the press conference to announce Fitz's the day before the charges were announced (but after a few of the players took their leave) was on the ownership. And it absolutely was done so there wouldn't be any questions about the HC situation. The next time Fitz spoke publicly was Ruff's firing (i think there were a few questions on HC, but they were poorly framed and allowed them to say we were following league protocol).

 

[My3Sons]

Holding the press conference to announce Fitz's the day before the charges were announced (but after a few of the players took their leave) was on the ownership. And it absolutely was done so there wouldn't be any questions about the HC situation. The next time Fitz spoke publicly was Ruff's firing (i think there were a few questions on HC, but they were poorly framed and allowed them to say we were following league protocol).

It was reported some time ago that they were told by the league to do business as usual. I don’t know the details of how the law requires you to act in this situation but if the league was not going to suspend the players it seems unlikely the clubs had much leeway. Hopefully this can be resolved without more mistrials and the facts will be clearly articulated and the jury can act accordingly and life can go on and the victim can retain her anonymity and start to put this behind her permanently.

 

[jkrdevil]

It was reported some time ago that they were told by the league to do business as usual. I don’t know the details of how the law requires you to act in this situation but if the league was not going to suspend the players it seems unlikely the clubs had much leeway. Hopefully this can be resolved without more mistrials and the facts will be clearly articulated and the jury can act accordingly and life can go on and the victim can retain her anonymity and start to put this behind her permanently.

The league told them to do business as usual. And obviously the league wasn’t going to preemptively suspend them (and technically they still aren’t suspended as they all took leave and all of their contracts expired). But that doesn’t mean you can’t look into what you can and figure out if a player is a possible target of an investigation and then evaluate the risks. They probably knowingly took the risk is re-signing McLeod thinking nothing would happen in season. There is no excuse for signing Cal Foote given the situation.

 

[My3Sons]

The league told them to do business as usual. And obviously the league wasn’t going to preemptively suspend them (and technically they still aren’t suspended as they all took leave and all of their contracts expired). But that doesn’t mean you can’t look into what you can and figure out if a player is a possible target of an investigation and then evaluate the risks. They probably knowingly took the risk is re-signing McLeod thinking nothing would happen in season. There is no excuse for signing Cal Foote given the situation.

The Foote signing makes zero sense to me. We will never know the truth about how this went down. My guess is a few lawyers told everyone what to do and some crisis management PR people were also consulted. While there was a purge at hockey Canada and of course the players have had negative reporting I’m not seeing the league asked about this.

 

[NJDevs26]

It was a total pattern interrupt though.

Sounded like some scam PR move that his/their advisors told them to do.

Honestly, f*** Blitzer too. I don’t put that all on Fitz. Blitzer is also guilty for going through with that.

Yeah I don't really see the point of the Devils publicly re-upping Fitz from a PR standpoint since it actually made them look worse once the HC stuff dropped...other than as a preventive measure to quell whatever calls there might have been to fire him after I suppose.

But again we're getting into team stuff in an ATL thread. These jackasses are no longer our problem thankfully (the ones from HC), and debating what Fitz knew and when is a pointless exercise, he's never going to tell us. All these suits usually make sure they have plausible deniability for as long as they can.