Around the NHL — Episode XLXVII

[Sens of Anarchy]

in 2023-24 Joseph had 11 g 24a 35 pts in 72 games last year; A career high and his only year over 30 pts (and still needed to give up a 3rd to move him for future considerations

He finished the season with 0 g 0 a thru is last 12 games where his TOI was over 15 in all but 2 games and he was over 18 in 5.

I have no way of proving this but I believe part of the problem with Joseph was his acceptance to be a bottom 6 player and to play the role expected of him accordingly. To his credit he did have success putting up points in the top 6 .. especially when he first landed in Ottawa.. Maybe he continued to relish that role and was not so happy with the expectations put on him in the bottom 6. Maybe his view of himself was different than what the team saw him as. This could have been a point of contention and what resulted in him being moved the way he was. I still find it very odd that the Sens rushed him out the door the way they did and at the cost to do it.

Either way he appears to be far from meeting expectations fans would have of him in St Louis

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

in 2023-24 Joseph had 11 g 24a 35 pts in 72 games last year; A career high and his only year over 30 pts (and still needed to give up a 3rd to move him for future considerations

He finished the season with 0 g 0 a thru is last 12 games where his TOI was over 15 in all but 2 games and he was over 18 in 5.

I have no way of proving this but I believe part of the problem with Joseph was his acceptance to be a bottom 6 player and to play the role expected of him accordingly. To his credit he did have success putting up points in the top 6 .. especially when he first landed in Ottawa.. Maybe he continued to relish that role and was not so happy with the expectations put on him in the bottom 6. Maybe his view of himself was different than what the team saw him as. This could have been a point of contention and what resulted in him being moved the way he was. I still find it very odd that the Sens rushed him out the door the way they did and at the cost to do it.

Either way he appears to be far from meeting expectations fans would have of him in St Louis

With much of his struggles coming under Martin, I have always assumed his feedback was not positive on Joseph and that they likely put a lot of stock in his feedback in general. Felt like a trial run to re-assess the group. Oh to be a fly on the wall for those internal conversations.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Joseph was a good player

Tbh I think they just wanted to break up the toxic bffs vibe we had going and make it more about about professionals showing up to work.


And it's working.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

With much of his struggles coming under Martin, I have always assumed his feedback was not positive on Joseph and that they likely put a lot of stock in his feedback in general. Felt like a trial run to re-assess the group. Oh to be a fly on the wall for those internal conversations.

More only the last 12 games .. so in the 1st 24 of his last 36 games he was at .5 pts / g which is good for him. Could have been something with JM and MJ but that would be another speculation

 

[GCK]

The point had nothing to do with all this though but more with the "butterfly effect". If Brown was not traded, he probably wouldn't have suffered this injury. That's why I am not looking at Brown and what he did once he left but the known quality of what he was doing here.

What you find DUMB is for me the reality of the world of gravity I live in. Connor would have been in a different time and space point if he was never traded.

I am not watching the Blues, caught a few periods there and there, he was injured I think. I found Joseph was a lot more impactful last season (just the PK is a big part) than Amadio has been. But it's ok, just like Tierney, Amadio is not my kind of player at all. But that's the thing, it's really not about Joseph anymore, it is that I wish we invested the money on Perron + Amadio differently. My problem with the Joseph departure is more spending the 3rd round pick, right after previous management dilapidated a ton of assets.

It's like you can't talk about things here without them being linked to something else. I initially said that "Both Perron and Amadio signings are clearly not working out so far, 2 goals, 10 pts in 42 games for 6.6 AAV"


Yeah, he's an impact forward but I don't find he's in the same tier as the other guys named. I know I tried to defend Brady in the Marner vs Tkachuk thread but that was with cap hits included. Without contracts in consideration, I have no choice to admit Brady is not the same level, particularly if you stats looking at defensive play. I think it's one thing holding him back.

Connor Brown was going to be paid more than Batherson had he not been traded. Let that sink in.

Tkachuk is so much more elite than you will admit.

 

[Micklebot]

He did not. We traded him before the season started and he was UFA at the end of the year. He was due for a new contract but they could’ve kept him for the year.

That’s the year Formenton didn’t come back and people were pretty mad that Dorion traded him not considering that we would’ve needed him with the little depth that we had. Paul was also swapped for Joseph at the deadline the year prior. I assume Dorion took that Joseph would replace Brown at a lower cost. Brown was looking at a 4-5M per year contract over 4-6 years at that point. Injuries in the subsequent year really changed his course.

We had added Debrincat and Giroux during that offseason as well.

The Brown trade was simply made because Dorion added other pieces that theoratically made Brown expandable. Had Formenton played it would not have been an issue. Just a lack of foresight there. Otherwise Brown would’ve been gone at the deadline or left as a FA in the offseason.. so in the grand schems of things it was a non-issue.

The rumour was that Brown wasn't happy that Paul was traded and wanted out as a result. Idk if he asked for a trade, but the thought at the time was he wasn't interested in re-signing

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[NyQuil]

And they have a Cup. Wild.

How many HoFers?
-Pronger and MacInnis
-Maybe Pietrangelo and Tkachuk one day.

Does Demitra predate the range? I’d probably include him.

A lot of underwhelming names in general.

 

[starling]

Brian Elliott damn.
How many young goalies turned elite immediately after leaving us for peanuts?
Elliot, Bishop, Lehner, Gus, Daccord... The list goes on.
We are practically Vezina factory over here.

 

[LiseL]

I feel like it’s just too rich for a guy who doesn’t show up for half the games. If he’s hot then yeah he’s totally worth it, but I wouldn’t wanna gamble on a guy no-showing at that price tag.

I also find it curious that there's talk of trading Petersson instead of J.T. Miller who's 5 years older. Wonder which of the 2 is causing the most uproar in that locker room? I think I'd be more interested in Miller for Ottawa as he's a monster in the playoffs but hard pass if we have to give up anyone of value.

 

[Xspyrit]

You have no idea how Joseph would perform under a completely different coach in Green, so here or not the butterfly effect remains, assuming he'd play the same as last year if he stayed here is just as big of a leap as he'd play the same as he has in StL. Claiming the brown comparison is just illustrating the butterfly effect is just a false equivalency.

Packaging Perron stats with Amadio makes Amadio seem worse than he has been, yet another framing that the nly serves to muddy the waters instead of actually being informative. Perron has a ton of context that goes along with his performance in his limited outings, another reason why it's incredibly misleading to package them as one.

In the end, we need players that will perform in Greens system, not DJ's, and we need players playing well now, not last year. Amadio fits much better than Joseph imo, particularly the current iteration of Joseph as he's playing with the blues, Staios' job is to build a team that plays well now, not a collection of players that were good last year.

I don't know that, of course, which is why I am simply relying on the player I have seen play in the recent past. In the end, it's a very simple choice of choosing the player A over the player B, not sure why preferring someone over Mike freaking Amadio is such a debate lol

Context or no, my stance BEFORE the season and NOW is the same, I would have liked the 6.6 AAV to be spent differently. Maybe nobody really wanted to come to Ottawa and that's a possibility. And having known Perron for almost 20 years now, it's not because I don't like the guy, my problem is more his age + term. Amadio is just not a player I find good or I like to watch play, I would have preferred Danton Heinen or Warren Foegele for example.

But again all that said, as it doesn't seem to be made aware of, my initial point was NOT about Joseph, another poster made the connection. There's even a world where Joseph could have been kept and Amadio also signed...

in 2023-24 Joseph had 11 g 24a 35 pts in 72 games last year; A career high and his only year over 30 pts (and still needed to give up a 3rd to move him for future considerations

He finished the season with 0 g 0 a thru is last 12 games where his TOI was over 15 in all but 2 games and he was over 18 in 5.

I have no way of proving this but I believe part of the problem with Joseph was his acceptance to be a bottom 6 player and to play the role expected of him accordingly. To his credit he did have success putting up points in the top 6 .. especially when he first landed in Ottawa.. Maybe he continued to relish that role and was not so happy with the expectations put on him in the bottom 6. Maybe his view of himself was different than what the team saw him as. This could have been a point of contention and what resulted in him being moved the way he was. I still find it very odd that the Sens rushed him out the door the way they did and at the cost to do it.

Either way he appears to be far from meeting expectations fans would have of him in St Louis

Joseph also had 30 pts in 2021-22

He played 5 full seasons, 2 seasons x 30+ points, paced for 30 pts, 28 pts and 26 pts in the other 3 seasons

I think I talked about it once but Joseph's family is related to a family in which I have several friends, so of course I am rooting for him.

Connor Brown was going to be paid more than Batherson had he not been traded. Let that sink in.

Tkachuk is so much more elite than you will admit.

I did not talk about Connor Brown for any OTHER reason than use his injury as an example for the "butterfly effect"

Tkachuk is a star but he's not elite IMO. He's not Kucherov/Rantanen/Marner/Matthew Tkachuk level, he's a tier below and I don't think you'd find many outside of the Sens board who would think he is.

 

[LiseL]

It has the potential to disrupt the room, but I think if he came in and performed to the level he's shown he can bring, all would be forgotten pretty quickly. Rarely do these guys come available, especially before they're starting to have age concerns. Would make me nervous for the reasons you point out, but for the right deal I think I'd still move forward. I just think he has that high end ceiling that Norris doesn't have, even though I do really like Norris.

He also makes 40% more than Norris which has to be factored in. Also, Norris is a two-way center who's great in the dot, on the PK and doesn't usually mail it in. Also, why would Canucks want to trade Petersson instead of Miller? Speaks volumes to me if they value Miller more.

 

[LiseL]

Brady and Josh have been close friends for years…. I would think twice before trading away Josh, because I remember what happened when one of Chara’s close friends was traded.

Also Norris has been solid this year: 2nd in goals, great in F/O circle, good on the PK, plays a 200-ft game, high IQ. He hasn't played much hockey the last couple of years. I think he'll continue to improve.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

He also makes 40% more than Norris which has to be factored in. Also, Norris is a two-way center who's great in the dot, on the PK and doesn't usually mail it in. Also, why would Canucks want to trade Petersson instead of Miller? Speaks volumes to me if they value Miller more.

All factors worth considering. I can only speculate on the why in Vancouver. Petterson is no slouch defensively either, but more so, I don't think Norris has the sort of high end offensive potential Petterson has shown and I think everyone would agree. It's also the sort of thing the Senators need more of long term and doesn't appear to be in house. His 2022-23 season is what we hope Stutzle is going to be and he's by far our best player offensively. Petterson's last 2 seasons have totaled 73g & 191 points in 162 games. Almost a point a game otherwise and produced over a ppg in 2020 playoffs despite last years underwhelming playoff showing. I don't believe Norris has ppg potential, and definitely not well above, but I do like him.

 

[GCK]

I don't know that, of course, which is why I am simply relying on the player I have seen play in the recent past. In the end, it's a very simple choice of choosing the player A over the player B, not sure why preferring someone over Mike freaking Amadio is such a debate lol

Context or no, my stance BEFORE the season and NOW is the same, I would have liked the 6.6 AAV to be spent differently. Maybe nobody really wanted to come to Ottawa and that's a possibility. And having known Perron for almost 20 years now, it's not because I don't like the guy, my problem is more his age + term. Amadio is just not a player I find good or I like to watch play, I would have preferred Danton Heinen or Warren Foegele for example.

But again all that said, as it doesn't seem to be made aware of, my initial point was NOT about Joseph, another poster made the connection. There's even a world where Joseph could have been kept and Amadio also signed...



Joseph also had 30 pts in 2021-22

He played 5 full seasons, 2 seasons x 30+ points, paced for 30 pts, 28 pts and 26 pts in the other 3 seasons

I think I talked about it once but Joseph's family is related to a family in which I have several friends, so of course I am rooting for him.



I did not talk about Connor Brown for any OTHER reason than use his injury as an example for the "butterfly effect"

Tkachuk is a star but he's not elite IMO. He's not Kucherov/Rantanen/Marner/Matthew Tkachuk level, he's a tier below and I don't think you'd find many outside of the Sens board who would think he is.

Let me put the goalposts back where they started. Stutzle, Sanderson and Brady will be the best core in the Atlantic in a couple years. Last time I checked Colorado wasn’t in the Atlantic.

 

[LiseL]

I'm worried about what these players are today, and today, Amadio has been a far superior player to Joseph. Amadio had a slow start adjusting to a new team but has 10 pts in his last 25 games, basically the same pace as Joseph when here. Meanwhile Joseph worked his way out of the lineup in StL. I know which player I'd take in those circumstances.

Speaking of Amadio, it seems he suffered a concussion, haven't heard any updates on his status. Hope he comes back soon.

 

[LiseL]

Or alternatively and more optimistic, we should be talking about Ottawa moving into Boston’s current playoff spot. They are 4 points ahead of us, but we have 3 games in hand.

The Sens also have 3 games in hand against Pitts. They only have 1 game in hand against Philly and CBJ. I still find it hard to believe CBJ is in the mix, guess Evason is doing well over there.

 

[Xspyrit]

Let me put the goalposts back where they started. Stutzle, Sanderson and Brady will be the best core in the Atlantic in a couple years. Last time I checked Colorado wasn’t in the Atlantic.

haha ok fair, I was just naming some wingers I consider Elite.

But that's interesting, how would you rank this?

Stutzle + Tkachuk + Sanderson
Matthews + Nylander + Marner
Kucherov + Point + Hagel
Barkov + Reinhart + Tkachuk
Pastrnak + MacAvoy + Swayman
Seider + Edvinsson + Raymond
Suzuki + Caufield + Hutson
Dahlin + Power + Thompson

We could expand with other Eastern teams too

 

[bicboi64]

haha ok fair, I was just naming some wingers I consider Elite.

But that's interesting, how would you rank this?

Stutzle + Tkachuk + Sanderson
Matthews + Nylander + Marner
Kucherov + Point + Hagel
Barkov + Reinhart + Tkachuk
Pastrnak + MacAvoy + Swayman
Seider + Edvinsson + Raymond
Suzuki + Caufield + Hutson
Dahlin + Power + Thompson

We could expand with other Eastern teams too

I'll take our core over TML, Florida and TBL solely because you need at least 1 top pairing defender as your core unless you're relying on your goalie to bail you out every game, which is what Florida's current game plan is and TBL's will be if Hedman starts declining.

Detroit, Buffalo and MTL aren't even in the core, and the only core 3 that gives a team solid balance is Boston's but they have so many other issues to mitigate how good their core could be.

 

[Micklebot]

NJD on a 3 game losing streak now

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Montreal with an impressive comeback against Vegas.

Thank you for showing our divisional rival the respect they deserved

 

[NyQuil]

Thank you for showing our divisional rival the respect they deserved

I forgot to leave my brain operating when posting in this thread.

My bad.

haha ok fair, I was just naming some wingers I consider Elite.

But that's interesting, how would you rank this?

Stutzle + Tkachuk + Sanderson
Matthews + Nylander + Marner
Kucherov + Point + Hagel
Barkov + Reinhart + Tkachuk
Pastrnak + MacAvoy + Swayman
Seider + Edvinsson + Raymond
Suzuki + Caufield + Hutson
Dahlin + Power + Thompson

We could expand with other Eastern teams too

I think we look pretty good.

Not necessarily this season but against our contemporary competition.

The fact that Swayman is included for Boston and Ullmark isn’t for us is an embarrassment of riches.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

I also find it curious that there's talk of trading Petersson instead of J.T. Miller who's 5 years older. Wonder which of the 2 is causing the most uproar in that locker room? I think I'd be more interested in Miller for Ottawa as he's a monster in the playoffs but hard pass if we have to give up anyone of value.

Pettersson does not have trade protection, because he is still playing through an RFA year. Miller has a NMC. It seems like some of the speculation is based on the idea that if they have to trade on of their stars, they might trade the one who would get them a better return.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Brian Elliott damn.
How many young goalies turned elite immediately after leaving us for peanuts?
Elliot, Bishop, Lehner, Gus, Daccord... The list goes on.
We are practically Vezina factory over here.

After playing behind our poor team D, everything else seems easy in comparison. We're like a goalie bootcamp.


On another note...only one game today and on a day where the WJC did have any games...that's a bit of a slipup for the NHL. I get there's football and bowl games and all that, but this was a good day/night for some hockey on tv. Once again the NHL wastes a good opportunity to get some viewers.

 

[Xspyrit]

I'll take our core over TML, Florida and TBL solely because you need at least 1 top pairing defender as your core unless you're relying on your goalie to bail you out every game, which is what Florida's current game plan is and TBL's will be if Hedman starts declining.

Detroit, Buffalo and MTL aren't even in the core, and the only core 3 that gives a team solid balance is Boston's but they have so many other issues to mitigate how good their core could be.

Well, I only listed 3 core members as I was following GCK criteria so I simply took the 3 best pieces of these teams in relation to age but they do have a D-man as well so I'll re-do it (2 forwards and 1 D-man like Stutzle + Tkachuk + Sanderson) and rank them :

Kucherov + Point + Hedman
Barkov + Reinhart + Forsling
Matthews + Marner + Rielly
Stutzle + Tkachuk + Sanderson
Raymond + Larkin + Seider
Thompson + Peterka + Dahlin
Pastrnak + Lindholm + MacAvoy
Suzuki + Caufield + Hutson

But I think it would be more interesting to look at a core-5 of 3 forwards and 2 D-men. TB have Hedman and McDonagh but who are getting up there in age, so once they decline, it should get harder for them. Buffalo is another kind of beast as they have Dahlin, Power, Byram and Samuelsson, that should be the best Top-4 in the division by far.

I think we look pretty good.

Not necessarily this season but against our contemporary competition.

The fact that Swayman is included for Boston and Ullmark isn’t for us is an embarrassment of riches.

Oh yeah, goalies... it should be 3 forwards, 2 D-men and 1 goalie

Stutzle + Tkachuk + Batherson + Sanderson + Chabot + Ullmark

This is our main core and a reason to be hopeful as I think we can compete if we extend to 6 players. They need the right support and depth though as the competition is ferocious

And that is why, earlier I was mentioning that I was not really concerned with Boston and Detroit long term as they don't seem, to have the forwards depth shaping up. That said, Detroit has Seider, Edvinsson, Sandin-Pellika and Wallinder which is another impressive quartet (ours is also great with Yakemchuk and Kleven)