Around the League Thread | November Rain

[valkynax]

NJD got shutout by...SJS?

Le f***?

 

[Caspian]

Jersey just got blanked by the Shorks lmao.

not just that but by their former goalie Mckenzie Blackwood lol


it was personal for Blackwood. he was lights out

 

[Bubbles]

The team is kinda stuck with an aging ROR and Josi; an LA type of retool that gave them an option to fully rebuild probably would have been smarter.

Yeah but not everyone is in LA's position. Their old core has won 2 cups, signed long ass contracts and get to live in Southern California. Easier for them to accept a rebuild.

 

[Nick Lang]

Yes how dare Tortz hold players accountable......as long as you can stand at C ice and then produce offense who really cares about all the other poor play or compete?

Haha. Trotz has more compete in the tip of his Johnson than most of this board has in their entire body.

People really get off on ripping into GM's around here. Not sure they're all as horrible and collectively stupid as is claimed. It's pretty early yet with regards to how the Nashville retool will go. I don't think they have much choice but to stick with it now.

Took them forever to build fan interest, they are not going to rebuild unless they have absolutely zero choice. Business is business, you guys need to stop preaching rebuild at every turn.

Totally agree. So many accusations and criticism doled out around here that totally misses the point that other teams are actually trying to compete and that most teams and shouldn't just rebuild and sell everything if they're not one of the to 4 or 5 teams competing for a cup.

Even this Fabbro trade. Everyone is speculating about TDL possibilities for Fabbro and weaponizing cap space when in reality Columbus has played very well in some games and is currently only 3 points out of the playoffs. I'm sure in Columbus they're first priority is using Fabbro to compete this season. Sure, if the season doesn't go well they will look to sell players like any other normal hockey team.

 

[thecupismine]

We're 15 games into the season and no young team has made a significant jump into playoff contention (most are still at .500). There's some teams like the Wild and Devils that are playing well, but it seems more like last year was the anomoly and they're back to expected to playoff territory rather than a new team making the jump.

It's strange, because looking back at the last 3 years the only teams that have made any sort of significant jump into the potential contender category are the Devils and Canucks. If you stretch back a little farther, you could include the Rangers in there too?

The rebuilds in general are taking teams a lot longer than they use to, and some teams have failed on their second and third attempts as well. Very few have set themselves up to take advantage of their top picks ELC's either, which is very different from when Crosby/Malkin made the finals on their ELCs & the Hawks won with Kane/Toews on theirs.

Seems like a combination of front office dysfunction, and contending teams doing a much better job of keeping the core around at reasonable prices then retooling. The reason I bring this up is it's usually an old, contending team falling apart that leads to useful pieces being available, rather than a bottom-feeder staying a bottom-feeder for an extended period of time.

Really curious how this ends up affecting the deadline, as this level of stagnation usually leads to fewer pieces being available and increased prices on said pieces. Best case scenario for Vancouver is Boston and NYI falling apart, while the Penguins stay mediocre, but we'll see what happens.

 

[StreetHawk]

When team strip everything done to the studs, they become a destination that no one wants to go unless there is drastic overpay. See Roussell, Beagle, Louie, Myers, etc. Saw that with Detroit and their UFA signings in 2022 off-season.

Chicago just signed a bunch of guys on 2-4 year deals in Dickinson, Foligno, Bertuzzi, TT, etc.

Ana didn't do anything significant. SJ, a long ways away, but added Toffoli, Goodrow who have won in the past.

Seems like too many clubs are just relying on their kids to take that step. And or have not made a trade to fill an area of need. Not going to draft for all key positions, like your 2 top Offensive C and your top pairing D (RHD and LHD), a goalie, followed by a scoring winger, good Defensive 3C, and a 2nd pair D.

The longer a Losing Culture sets in the harder it is to turn it around. Not attracting UFAs or convincing players to waive trade protection to go to a dysfunctional organization, when do finally do decide to make a big move.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

SJ have been playing well lately.

While a SO should be a surprise, especially against NJ, they play a style that allows them to stay in low scoring games.

 

[Nick Lang]

We're 15 games into the season and no young team has made a significant jump into playoff contention (most are still at .500). There's some teams like the Wild and Devils that are playing well, but it seems more like last year was the anomoly and they're back to expected to playoff territory rather than a new team making the jump.

It's strange, because looking back at the last 3 years the only teams that have made any sort of significant jump into the potential contender category are the Devils and Canucks. If you stretch back a little farther, you could include the Rangers in there too?

The rebuilds in general are taking teams a lot longer than they use to, and some teams have failed on their second and third attempts as well. Very few have set themselves up to take advantage of their top picks ELC's either, which is very different from when Crosby/Malkin made the finals on their ELCs & the Hawks won with Kane/Toews on theirs.

Seems like a combination of front office dysfunction, and contending teams doing a much better job of keeping the core around at reasonable prices then retooling. The reason I bring this up is it's usually an old, contending team falling apart that leads to useful pieces being available, rather than a bottom-feeder staying a bottom-feeder for an extended period of time.

Really curious how this ends up affecting the deadline, as this level of stagnation usually leads to fewer pieces being available and increased prices on said pieces. Best case scenario for Vancouver is Boston and NYI falling apart, while the Penguins stay mediocre, but we'll see what happens.

Good points. I think we're also still looking at the fallout from the Covid flat cap. So many teams just hunkered down. Not many willing to eat tonnes of cap, make wide sweeping changes, or go for it. The rebuilders kept rebuilding but like Detroit for instance not a tonnes of game changers coming through either.

I find the rise and fall of teams one of the most exciting things about any new NHL season. This year the Caps look a couple steps ahead and could make some noise, Minny looking very good. Kings also surprising a lot of the doomsayers. Utah started well and maybe Buffalo or Ottawa gets it going. They are right there if they can find the next level.

I think the TDL will be pretty active. We're turning the corner on teams in a holding pattern, just need to see who falls out of contention.

 

[sting101]

A tear it down rebuild is generally considered by managers and scouts to take 7yrs before you start bearing fruit. Nobody wants to commit to that time frame.

And just because your stable of high picks and many others are now getting to the ages of even being possible to beat the best players and teams doesn't mean they will have it in them.

For years this fanbase that in a lot of cases wanted that style of rebuild also would argue it could be done in 3-4yrs and that's about as likely as Lloyd Christmas getting with Mary Swanson

 

[StreetHawk]

A tear it down rebuild is generally considered by managers and scouts to take 7yrs before you start bearing fruit. Nobody wants to commit to that time frame.

How many GMS are going to last 7 seasons for a rebuild?

Yzerman is in year 6 for example. Probably the longest tenured GM of those who are heading up the clubs that have been rebuilding for a while.
Verbeek is in year 3, Grier in year 3, Hughes in year 3 (full year), Waddell just got the CBJ job, Davidson in year 4 (I'm counting 21/22 when he took over as Interim GM in Oct, just as the season began).

All of this with the fact that Detroit missed PO for 3 seasons with Holland, SJ 3 seasons with Wilson, Ana 4 seasons with Murray, CBJ with Jarmo for 3 seasons before current GM took over. So, it's a been a whiile for those clubs.

 

[sting101]

How many GMS are going to last 7 seasons for a rebuild?

Yzerman is in year 6 for example. Probably the longest tenured GM of those who are heading up the clubs that have been rebuilding for a while.
Verbeek is in year 3, Grier in year 3, Hughes in year 3 (full year), Waddell just got the CBJ job, Davidson in year 4 (I'm counting 21/22 when he took over as Interim GM in Oct, just as the season began).

All of this with the fact that Detroit missed PO for 3 seasons with Holland, SJ 3 seasons with Wilson, Ana 4 seasons with Murray, CBJ with Jarmo for 3 seasons before current GM took over. So, it's a been a whiile for those clubs.

And that is the issue....staying patient while fan interest fades and a owner starts to see his bottom line sink will test everyone.

Roll a dice 7 times and for each roll /year take a player drafted in that # then take the corresponding picks with the team you got for the first pick....add it up what do you got from 2018 to now.

should be a nice stable of players but are you a winner....i just did it 4-3-5-4-2-6-1

Tkachuk - Bernard-Docker
Dach - Vlasic
Sanderson - Greig - Kleven
L.Hughes - Stillman
Nemec - Casey
Simashev - But
Celebrini - Dickinson

Probably would have not drafted Simashev given the D already picked so Leonard or Mitchkov.

Point being without a significant group of vets that is far from a playoff teams core at this stage and that's staying bottom 6 for 7yrs

 

[Jerry the great]

How many GMS are going to last 7 seasons for a rebuild?

Yzerman is in year 6 for example. Probably the longest tenured GM of those who are heading up the clubs that have been rebuilding for a while.
Verbeek is in year 3, Grier in year 3, Hughes in year 3 (full year), Waddell just got the CBJ job, Davidson in year 4 (I'm counting 21/22 when he took over as Interim GM in Oct, just as the season began).

All of this with the fact that Detroit missed PO for 3 seasons with Holland, SJ 3 seasons with Wilson, Ana 4 seasons with Murray, CBJ with Jarmo for 3 seasons before current GM took over. So, it's a been a whiile for those clubs.

You need to find elite pieces to get off the hamster wheel and the only reason Benning lasted as long as he did was due to the number of elite pieces we accumulated while he was here. And eventually even that couldn't compensate for the staggering volume and magnitude of his negative value moves.

I think people underestimate how hard it is to find and keep the elite pieces.

 

[Josepho]

does anyone know if this is the fastest pair of back-to-back goals with the exact same goal scorer and assist combination?

 

[Vector]

View attachment 929327

does anyone know if this is the fastest pair of back-to-back goals with the exact same goal scorer and assist combination?

The fastest is 4 seconds by Nels Stewart in 1931. Weirdly, Deron Quint also did it in 1995.

I looked over the first two pages and this, while impressive, doesn't even make the top 14.

Nels Stewart - 0:04 - 1931
Deron Quint - 0:04 - 1995
Peter Mahovlich - 0:05 - 1971
Howie Meeker - 0:06 - 1952
Jim Pappin - 0:06 - 1972
Ralph Backstrom - 0:06 - 1972
Lanny McDonald - 0:06 - 1984
Sylvain Turgeon - 0:06 - 1987
Busher Jackson - 0:07 - 1932
Cooney Weiland - 0:07 - 1937
Bill Mosienko - 0:07 - 1948
Red Kelly - 0:07 - 1961
Wally Boyer - 0:07 - 1970
Bill Goldsworthy - 0:07 - 1971

 

[StreetHawk]

And that is the issue....staying patient while fan interest fades and a owner starts to see his bottom line sink will test everyone.

Roll a dice 7 times and for each roll /year take a player drafted in that # then take the corresponding picks with the team you got for the first pick....add it up what do you got from 2018 to now.

should be a nice stable of players but are you a winner....i just did it 4-3-5-4-2-6-1

Tkachuk - Bernard-Docker
Dach - Vlasic
Sanderson - Greig - Kleven
L.Hughes - Stillman
Nemec - Casey
Simashev - But
Celebrini - Dickinson

Probably would have not drafted Simashev given the D already picked so Leonard or Mitchkov.

Point being without a significant group of vets that is far from a playoff teams core at this stage and that's staying bottom 6 for 7yrs

Plus you can't expect to draft in the top 6 each season for 7 straight seasons.
Anaheim in 2022 (10th) broke that streak as from 2020 to 2024, 4 of the seasons have been a bottom 5 one.

You have to get lucky that when you are bad that there are quality players at your draft slot.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

The fastest is 4 seconds by Nels Stewart in 1931. Weirdly, Deron Quint also did it in 1995.

I looked over the first two pages and this, while impressive, doesn't even make the top 14.

Nels Stewart - 0:04 - 1931
Deron Quint - 0:04 - 1995
Peter Mahovlich - 0:05 - 1971
Howie Meeker - 0:06 - 1952
Jim Pappin - 0:06 - 1972
Ralph Backstrom - 0:06 - 1972
Lanny McDonald - 0:06 - 1984
Sylvain Turgeon - 0:06 - 1987
Busher Jackson - 0:07 - 1932
Cooney Weiland - 0:07 - 1937
Bill Mosienko - 0:07 - 1948
Red Kelly - 0:07 - 1961
Wally Boyer - 0:07 - 1970
Bill Goldsworthy - 0:07 - 1971

The question was fastest two goals by the same combo of players for the goal AND the assists.

You cannot tell from that info who assisted on the goals.

Only that it’s the same goal scorer.

 

[Vector]

The question was fastest two goals by the same combo of players for the goal AND the assists.

You cannot tell from that info who assisted on the goals.

Only that it’s the same goal scorer.

Oh yeah Mr. Smarty Pants?

Because both of Nels Stewarts goals were assisted by Hooley Smith. Pete Mahovlich's goals were both assisted by John Ferguson.

Sadly, Deron Quint had different helpers on his goals.

Edit: Busher Jackson, Jack McIntyre, Darryl Sitter, Bill Mosienko, and Steve Payne also qualify. That's all 12 pages. So that's at least 7 are faster.

 

[Diversification]

The rebuilds in general are taking teams a lot longer than they use to, and some teams have failed on their second and third attempts as well. Very few have set themselves up to take advantage of their top picks ELC's either, which is very different from when Crosby/Malkin made the finals on their ELCs & the Hawks won with Kane/Toews on theirs.

Seems like a combination of front office dysfunction, and contending teams doing a much better job of keeping the core around at reasonable prices then retooling. The reason I bring this up is it's usually an old, contending team falling apart that leads to useful pieces being available, rather than a bottom-feeder staying a bottom-feeder for an extended period of time.

Really curious how this ends up affecting the deadline, as this level of stagnation usually leads to fewer pieces being available and increased prices on said pieces. Best case scenario for Vancouver is Boston and NYI falling apart, while the Penguins stay mediocre, but we'll see what happens.

To successfully rebuild, the most difficult thing you need to do is draft players that will play on the first line and top pairing. There's maybe 2 such players each draft where it's clear that will definitely be the case when they're 18. And with the draft lottery, tanking isn't even a great strategy to obtain such a player.

This is the logical fallacy committed by many posters on hfboards and hockey fans in general. They think some kid drafted 3OA is going to light the world on fire when in actuality, it's considered a success for a 3OA to be any kind of top 6 forward who can play 10 seasons for you. That 3OA becoming a centerpiece for your rebuild is roll of the dice at best.

And really, you want to hit on 2 top of the line up players to really have a viable core to rebuild around. It's really not trivial to do so. Just look at Buffalo or Ottawa who both have 1 such player (Dahlin and Tkachuk) or Detroit who arguably has none.

 

[VanJack]

Plus you can't expect to draft in the top 6 each season for 7 straight seasons.
Anaheim in 2022 (10th) broke that streak as from 2020 to 2024, 4 of the seasons have been a bottom 5 one.

You have to get lucky that when you are bad that there are quality players at your draft slot.

Anaheim offers a cautionary tale on what can happen with full-on, tear down and rebuild. Improvement in the NHL is rarely linear. First, you have to maximize your high draft picks, and most importantly pick the 'right' guys.

The Ducks drafted the likes of McTavish, Zegras, Drysdale and Carlsson......yet they still suck. With the exception of maybe Carlsson, it seems doubtful that their picks will be part of any breakthrough in the future.

And it's no different around the league. How many years have the Wings, Sabres and Habs been 'rebuilding'? By now some sort of breakthrough should be at hand--but looks like more of the same me.

So a successful 'rebuild' means getting a lot of luck in the draft; making some shrewd deals for additional picks/prospects; and bringing in the right character veterans for leadership on and off the ice.

It isn't easy. And it seems more GM's have failed and been fired; than have actually lasted to come out the other side of a total rebuild.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Oh yeah Mr. Smarty Pants?

Because both of Nels Stewarts goals were assisted by Hooley Smith. Pete Mahovlich's goals were both assisted by John Ferguson.

Sadly, Deron Quint had different helpers on his goals.

Edit: Busher Jackson, Jack McIntyre, Darryl Sitter, Bill Mosienko, and Steve Payne also qualify. That's all 12 pages. So that's at least 7 are faster.

What about the same two players assisting and in the same order?

 

[wetcoast]

View attachment 929327

does anyone know if this is the fastest pair of back-to-back goals with the exact same goal scorer and assist combination?

Bill Mosienko is the answer most likely for fastest 2 but Lee screwed up the trifecta.

03:37	NYR		Ed Slowinski (21)	Don Raleigh
06:09	CBH		Bill Mosienko (29)	Gus Bodnar
06:20	CBH		Bill Mosienko (30)	Gus Bodnar
06:30	CBH	PP	Bill Mosienko (31)	Gus Bodnar, George Gee
13:50	CBH		Sid Finney (5)	Fred Hucul, Lee Fogolin
19:22	CBH		Sid Finney (6)	Bill Gadsby

 

[Nuckles]

The Stars just scored 6 goals on 12 shots against the Penguins...in the 1st period

 

[wetcoast]

Oh yeah Mr. Smarty Pants?

Because both of Nels Stewarts goals were assisted by Hooley Smith. Pete Mahovlich's goals were both assisted by John Ferguson.

Sadly, Deron Quint had different helpers on his goals.

Edit: Busher Jackson, Jack McIntyre, Darryl Sitter, Bill Mosienko, and Steve Payne also qualify. That's all 12 pages. So that's at least 7 are faster.

The Pete Mahovlich game was really wild.

First 2 goals scored by the same guy with the primary assists both going to the same player.

Next 2 goals same thing.

Then Pete with the last 2 goals of the game.

Jerry Korab and Phil roberto getting his hatty screwed things up though.

2nd Period
3rd Period
05:36	MTL		Réjean Houle (5)	Henri Richard, Jacques Lemaire
07:59	MTL		Réjean Houle (6)	Henri Richard
09:20	MTL		Phil Roberto (7)	Jean Béliveau, J.C. Tremblay
19:02	MTL		Phil Roberto (8)	Jean Béliveau, Frank Mahovlich
18:47	CBH	PP	Jerry Korab (4)	Bobby Hull, Pit Martin
19:35	MTL		Phil Roberto (9)	Frank Mahovlich, Jean Béliveau
12:16	MTL		Pete Mahovlich (26)	John Ferguson
12:21	MTL		Pete Mahovlich (27)	John Ferguson

 

[Vector]

What about the same two players assisting and in the same order?

Jack McIntyre and Steve Payne’s goals for that. Don’t remember if the others had one or two assists. Like you said, the ones I point out have the exact same assist combination.

 

[wetcoast]

The Stars just scored 6 goals on 12 shots against the Penguins...in the 1st period

Yikes game over.