Around the League Thread | Marching to the Trade Deadline

[Nolan Bombgardener]

The old dude should have beaten the daylights out of the plump social media goof. That did not look like a cheap hat, and it also looked like it held some sentimental value to him. Hopefully he got it back.

Eh, violence isn't the answer. Call security and have them handle it--the ice crew could probably get the hat back for him too. Besides, he was being egged on by the camera guy and, I might be wrong, but looks like the hat thrower might have learning challenges.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

That is so much BS and how some US cities think. No win, don't go. Competition for the fan's dollar. None in Canada though.

Canadian fans know the draft is where the star players come from, they know drafting after 10 is not getting a super star player very often, they know enough about hockey as a large number have played or participated or watched (how to learn, watch and learn).

Yep. “Fans won’t tolerate a rebuild” always means ownership won’t tolerate a rebuild. I’ve always felt that it is a giant FU to your fans to blame them because:
1) most fans actually want a rebuild when the team starts to decline
2) Retooling on the fly around an old core always fails and a rebuild is inevitable anyways. You just waste 2-3 years of fans time from not rebuilding.
Canadian teams can handle rebuilds. What they can’t handle is years of bad plans, bad execution, and bad management. Retooling only works if the core is already in place and are young enough to compete at the end of it. Really only good young roster player is Zary, and no real blue chip prospects.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Except they don't know this and ticket sales/merchandise sales/franchise value all usually tank during a tank.

I mean ticket sales and franchise value are going to drop if they are an older team that doesn’t tank but doesn’t make the playoffs. But there is less of a chance of getting a franchise player. I agree with you that if half the teams would be tanking if fans had their way, but sometimes it is inevitable with the draft system.

 

[Kryten]

The old dude should have beaten the daylights out of the plump social media goof. That did not look like a cheap hat, and it also looked like it held some sentimental value to him. Hopefully he got it back.

I agree but if you wear a hat to an NHL game and your team scores a hatty then you gotta toss your hat. Thems the rules

 

[Coffee]

I agree but if you wear a hat to an NHL game and your team scores a hatty then you gotta toss your hat. Thems the rules

After 2017 you dont have to

 

[MS]

I mean ticket sales and franchise value are going to drop if they are an older team that doesn’t tank but doesn’t make the playoffs. But there is less of a chance of getting a franchise player. I agree with you that if half the teams would be tanking if fans had their way, but sometimes it is inevitable with the draft system.

It's SO easy for fans playing video games to post this stuff when it isn't their money and their careers that are on the line.

As I've said a million times, there is a reason that rebuilds only happen as a last resort.

Most of this fanbase wanted a rebuild 6 months ago of a team that is right now 1st in the NHL. Fan opinions are f***ing stupid. Most fans are stupid.

 

[wetcoast]

It's SO easy for fans playing video games to post this stuff when it isn't their money and their careers that are on the line.

As I've said a million times, there is a reason that rebuilds only happen as a last resort.

Most of this fanbase wanted a rebuild 6 months ago of a team that is right now 1st in the NHL. Fan opinions are f***ing stupid. Most fans are stupid.

Sure but that being said did anyone expect the Canucks to be where there are this season?

I mean realistically hot the ever hope full that have been wrong 10 seasons in a row type guys.

Came here to say that the NTI gave up a point going into the 3rd with a 4-2 lead that's gotta hurt when every point counts right now.

Let's see if the Pens can actually get 2 points today.

I agree but if you wear a hat to an NHL game and your team scores a hatty then you gotta toss your hat. Thems the rules

Fair enough but people should touch other people hats right?

I'm not a hat guy but I'm pretty sure that's part of the hat code.

On second thought any grown man that wears his hat backwards f**k them, throw their hat.

 

[MS]

Sure but that being said did anyone expect the Canucks to be where there are this season?

That's the point.

Fans are really bad at evaluating where teams are at and really poor at understanding how changeable the NHL is on a year-to-year basis.

The notion that we should have been rebuilding last summer was absolutely idiotic for a whole host of reasons but most of this fanbase were chanting for it. It was absurd.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

That is so much BS and how some US cities think. No win, don't go. Competition for the fan's dollar. None in Canada though.

I'd argue there's a grain of truth to what Pastor is saying with the Flames. They've been very loathe to switch horses or take any sort of proactive moves that might help the franchise, and they've been doing it more or less since their run to the Cup finals in 03-04.

Their MO has typically been to try and bolster whatever's in the org, even if it's not really a great idea to be doing it.

 

[Kryten]

Fair enough but people should touch other people hats right?

I'm not a hat guy but I'm pretty sure that's part of the hat code.

On second thought any grown man that wears his hat backwards f**k them, throw their hat.

Yes you shouldnt touch other people or their things which is why the old guy shouldve broken humpty dumpty.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

It's SO easy for fans playing video games to post this stuff when it isn't their money and their careers that are on the line.

As I've said a million times, there is a reason that rebuilds only happen as a last resort.

Most of this fanbase wanted a rebuild 6 months ago of a team that is right now 1st in the NHL. Fan opinions are f***ing stupid. Most fans are stupid.

I didn't mean the Canucks, I was talking about the Flames "retool on the fly". The Flames situation isn't anything like ours was. We had young superstar players that needed good coaching and a good team put around them. Calgary's core is mostly aging and doesn't have any elite players.

And yes it is the fans money. Fans spend there hard earned money to go to games, on merchandise, etc. As a fan there is nothing worse than being sold snake oil( Retool on the fly). It admits the team isn't a playoff team but gets to pick 10-15. Retool can work if the core in place and young enough. It doesn't work to replace a core though.

 

[RandV]

Sure but that being said did anyone expect the Canucks to be where there are this season?

I mean realistically hot the ever hope full that have been wrong 10 seasons in a row type guys.

I think that's a bit immaterial, as the argument was basically that there was no conceivable way for the Canucks to push ahead into contention on their current path, they could only do so by conserving cap space and selling for futures to creating value. Ignoring that you're playing the odds in either direction, and what we're seeing now was always a possibility.

Personally I thought going in the Canucks would range from challenging for 3rd in the Pacific to being just outside a wild card spot. But if you asked me if I thought they had a better shot pushing into contention by pushing ahead and building on what they had vs going into an aggressive sell for a 'quick retool', I'd put the better odds on the former.

I'll also add that while Calgary is failing Winnipeg is another Canadian team succeeding with us. There's a lot of ways you can build a team in the NHL.

 

[wetcoast]

I think that's a bit immaterial, as the argument was basically that there was no conceivable way for the Canucks to push ahead into contention on their current path, they could only do so by conserving cap space and selling for futures to creating value. Ignoring that you're playing the odds in either direction, and what we're seeing now was always a possibility.

Personally I thought going in the Canucks would range from challenging for 3rd in the Pacific to being just outside a wild card spot. But if you asked me if I thought they had a better shot pushing into contention by pushing ahead and building on what they had vs going into an aggressive sell for a 'quick retool', I'd put the better odds on the former.

I'll also add that while Calgary is failing Winnipeg is another Canadian team succeeding with us. There's a lot of ways you can build a team in the NHL.

2 things here.

1. Hindsight is 20/20 and winning resolves everything and the Canucks have totally turned their fortunes upside down.

2. Sure last year it was probably too late for a total rebuild but just because one team turned the switch, the Canucks, doesn't mean that a rebuild on the fly might have been more prudent several years earlier.

Put another way every year there are several teams in the Canucks situation just because we won the luck lottery doesn't mean that it was actually the "right thing" to do at the time.

As a lifelong Canucks fan I'm sure people understand this.

 

[wetcoast]

Man the Pens lose in regulation again they aren't making the playoffs.

They simply have squandered too many points this year.

 

[F A N]

That's the point.

Fans are really bad at evaluating where teams are at and really poor at understanding how changeable the NHL is on a year-to-year basis.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you here, I just find it kind of odd coming from you. I recall you being so against the Miller trade on the basis of the previous year’s record. You also didn’t think the team was about 2 years away from contention as Rutherford believed when he took over the team. I guess you are including yourself here as having a really poor understanding of how changeable the NHL is on a head-to-year basis?

 

[MS]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you here, I just find it kind of odd coming from you. I recall you being so against the Miller trade on the basis of the previous year’s record. You also didn’t think the team was about 2 years away from contention as Rutherford believed when he took over the team. I guess you are including yourself here as having a really poor understanding of how changeable the NHL is on a head-to-year basis?

1) There is a bit of a difference between this team in 2023 with star players at every position vs. 2019 with a roster that was mostly garbage.

2) I was never a ‘long tank’ person and I liked the idea of the Miller trade. I liked Miller and when we were projecting point totals here for the year after the trade I think my projection was like 2nd highest out of 20 people. What I didn’t like was risking getting Pollock’ed by trading 1st round picks when we were near the bottom of the standings.

 

[Coffee]

Lol

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

1) There is a bit of a difference between this team in 2023 with star players at every position vs. 2019 with a roster that was mostly garbage.

2) I was never a ‘long tank’ person and I liked the idea of the Miller trade. I liked Miller and when we were projecting point totals here for the year after the trade I think my projection was like 2nd highest out of 20 people. What I didn’t like was risking getting Pollock’ed by trading 1st round picks when we were near the bottom of the standings.

Also it’s been what , 55 games? It’s a bit early to say “mission accomplished” on any turn around. Especially after the lessons learned in 2014-15 and the subsequent years.

 

[andora]

2 things here.

1. Hindsight is 20/20 and winning resolves everything and the Canucks have totally turned their fortunes upside down.

2. Sure last year it was probably too late for a total rebuild but just because one team turned the switch, the Canucks, doesn't mean that a rebuild on the fly might have been more prudent several years earlier.

Put another way every year there are several teams in the Canucks situation just because we won the luck lottery doesn't mean that it was actually the "right thing" to do at the time.

As a lifelong Canucks fan I'm sure people understand this.

In essence, can i presume you believe anything short of winning the cup say in the next 1 to 3 years (timeline negotiable) keeps it at not the right thing to do?

If the alternative was the right thing to do in what timeline does winning it all justify that as the right thing to do

 

[wetcoast]

In essence, can i presume you believe anything short of winning the cup say in the next 1 to 3 years (timeline negotiable) keeps it at not the right thing to do?

If the alternative was the right thing to do in what timeline does winning it all justify that as the right thing to do

Like I said hindsight is 20/20 and after a certain point a partial rebuild simply comes off the table and this team is playing like a SC contender so the viewpoint from 2 or 3 years ago becomes moot.

like I said many teams were at similar points just because one team is the exception doesn't prove the rule wrong, maybe we are just having the perfect storm of luck and player development all at the same time.

My original point wasn't wrong though no one had this team this good in the offseason.

 

[andora]

Like I said hindsight is 20/20 and after a certain point a partial rebuild simply comes off the table and this team is playing like a SC contender so the viewpoint from 2 or 3 years ago becomes moot.

like I said many teams were at similar points just because one team is the exception doesn't prove the rule wrong, maybe we are just having the perfect storm of luck and player development all at the same time.

My original point wasn't wrong though no one had this team this good in the offseason.

I think my point is that neither is right or wrong without specific parameters agreed upon by people whos opinion on it matter

I think there is realistic and unrealistic paths (factoring in timeline) and reasonable and unreasonable paths - all of with measured by execution

 

[F A N]

1) There is a bit of a difference between this team in 2023 with star players at every position vs. 2019 with a roster that was mostly garbage.

2) I was never a ‘long tank’ person and I liked the idea of the Miller trade. I liked Miller and when we were projecting point totals here for the year after the trade I think my projection was like 2nd highest out of 20 people. What I didn’t like was risking getting Pollock’ed by trading 1st round picks when we were near the bottom of the standings.

You yourself declared the Canucks were likely to make the playoffs over the next 2 years (post Miller trade) with 75% certainty. So why would the Canucks’ standings the previous season matter?

Again, sounds like you are including yourself here as having a really poor understanding of how changeable the NHL is on a head-to-year basis?

And really, outside of the top 4 picks from the 2021 draft, had the pick ended up being the players selected 5 through 10, would you be sitting here today declaring that it’s one of the worst trades in Canucks history?

 

[VanJack]

I'd argue there's a grain of truth to what Pastor is saying with the Flames. They've been very loathe to switch horses or take any sort of proactive moves that might help the franchise, and they've been doing it more or less since their run to the Cup finals in 03-04.

Their MO has typically been to try and bolster whatever's in the org, even if it's not really a great idea to be doing it.

The problem the Flames had is that they let their impending UFA's like Tanev, Lindholm, Hanifin head into the season without contracts. Then when the losses piled up early on, they shut down any contract negotiations.

Then they were forced to trade Zadorov; and now Markstrom looks like he could be on the move as well. So a rebuild is almost being forced on them.

It's not a mistake Allvin and the Canucks will make. When they knew they couldn't possibly match Hovat's contract demands, they dealt him. So this is a big summer for Pettersson and Boeser. If they're not re-signed by training camp and enter their UFA years, you have wonder about their tenure as Canucks.

 

[andora]

And really, outside of the top 4 picks from the 2021 draft, had the pick ended up being the players selected 5 through 10, would you be sitting here today declaring that it’s one of the worst trades in Canucks history?

There was enough stupidity in that trade to cover that spread

 

[Diversification]

My threshold for a re-build was whether the team could plausibly reach the status of perennial playoff team. If it could, and given the ages of the core, it was always the right decision to keep building. I’d say the same if we were solidly in 3rd position in the Pacific. For some posters, perennial playoff team would be a hollow victory and would have liked to re-build unless the team became a contender.

So the question is, where are we as a team? I think it’s safe to assume that the team’s winning ways are sustainable into next season. We have enough of the important components locked down, cap space to retain a few more, and most critically, a team culture and buy-in to play solid systems-based defense. Whether we’re a true contender or not this year remains to be seen. I can definitely understand arguments for and against.

If we’re going to Monday morning quarterback this, I would say the lesson learned is that younger players assuming the mantle is an uneven and fraught process. And even when they do make the leap, coaching and systems matter a ton. That we were able to successfully transition and observing how difficult it was to do so should probably give anyone pause to hit the reset button and rebuild from scratch.