Around the League Thread | Holiday Season!

[MS]

Those were regular season numbers.

I still remember the game between Toronto and Winnipeg, early in their rookie season. Toronto was up 4-0 and the Jets stormed back to win it in OT on a hat trick goal from Laine after Matthew’s missed his breakaway opportunity. The crowd almost blowing the roof off chanting Laine’s better….

Any claims of superiority started that day, and it was pretty valid (or at least not absurd) over the first two seasons when it looked like Laine was on his way to being one of the leagues best goal scorers.

Then he just fizzled and Matthews found another gear or two.

you're using the benefit of hindsight to claim something was true/obvious when these comparisons were being made, when it simply wasn't.

Laine finished 2nd in the NHL in goals at the age of 19 and he looked for all the world like he was going to be a bigger version of Ovechkin and had 60+ goal seasons coming in his very near future.

Then everything went wrong. But Laine in 17-18 was one of the most dominant seasons I've ever seen from a teenager.

Re: Laine vs. Ovechkin, Ovechkin was also two years older during his first two NHL seasons than Laine was.

 

[sting101]

under the radar pick up was Utah getting Olli Maatta for a 3rd rounder

Had some history with JR and Hronek would have been a good target. I get the timing wasn't good due to our cap situation when he became available but wouldn't be disappointed if he comes later if Utah falls out of it and can't get a extension signed.

Ulimately we get a long term fit but it's gonna be tough

 

[Bleach Clean]

Those were regular season numbers.

I still remember the game between Toronto and Winnipeg, early in their rookie season. Toronto was up 4-0 and the Jets stormed back to win it in OT on a hat trick goal from Laine after Matthew’s missed his breakaway opportunity. The crowd almost blowing the roof off chanting Laine’s better….

Any claims of superiority started that day, and it was pretty valid (or at least not absurd) over the first two seasons when it looked like Laine was on his way to being one of the leagues best goal scorers.

Then he just fizzled and Matthews found another gear or two.

you're using the benefit of hindsight to claim something was true/obvious when these comparisons were being made, when it simply wasn't.

It was true up front - Matthews was the franchise talent at draft (stayed #1 all season). Any obfuscation came with Laine's scoring in the NHL... but only if you held that edge (85G to 79G) above PPG, defense, position, shot variation, vision, size utility, speed etc...

Laine 'fizzled out' because his game was very limited. Matthews' game was the opposite. That was true then, but people kept the blinders on due to Laine's scoring.

What's more, even if we grant that Laine was the more talented shooter, he was clearly not the more talented player. This was known before they even played in the NHL, and has only played out since.

RE: Ovie: I used the regular season for both because Ovie didn't make the playoffs in his first 2 years. If we include the playoffs, Laine's rate drops to .494 G/GP.

 

[Jerry the great]

It was true up front - Matthews was the franchise talent at draft (stayed #1 all season). Any obfuscation came with Laine's scoring in the NHL... but only if you held that edge (85G to 79G) above PPG, defense, position, shot variation, vision, size utility, speed etc...

Laine 'fizzled out' because his game was very limited. Matthews' game was the opposite. That was true then, but people kept the blinders on due to Laine's scoring.

Edit: It was obvious in terms of each player's ability. Matthews' development just made the difference look stark over time.

RE: Ovie: I used the regular season for both because Ovie didn't make the playoffs in his first 2 years. If we include the playoffs, Laine's rate drops to .494 G/GP.

I see where ethe confusion is. when I said only Ovie scored more in Laine's first two seasons, i was talking about 16/17 and 17/18. I was not comparing Laine's first two seasons vs Ovechkin's first two seasons.

you go dig up a post from 2018 that shows you saying that laine's game was about to fall off a cliff and I'll tip my cap. Nobody was talking like that at the time. The comparisons were being made because Laine was putting up numbers that were atypical of someone playing their first two seasons at 18/19. Ovechkin was 20 before playing his 1st NHL game and Matthews was 19.

Three players (U20) in the history of the game scored more goals than Laine over their first two seasons and none were from the same era.

 

[MS]

It was true up front - Matthews was the franchise talent at draft (stayed #1 all season). Any obfuscation came with Laine's scoring in the NHL... but only if you held that edge (85G to 79G) above PPG, defense, position, shot variation, vision, size utility, speed etc...

Laine 'fizzled out' because his game was very limited. Matthews' game was the opposite. That was true then, but people kept the blinders on due to Laine's scoring.

What's more, even if we grant that Laine was the more talented shooter, he was clearly not the more talented player. This was known before they even played in the NHL, and has only played out since.

Laine fizzled out because of mental health issues and injuries that caused him to regress as a player when he should have still been developing.

Matthews' game is obviously superior but if Laine's head was screwed on straight and he'd stayed healthy he would have been pouring in 40 and 50 goal seasons for the last 5 years. There is nothing 'limited' about his ability to score goals.

RE: Ovie: I used the regular season for both because Ovie didn't make the playoffs in his first 2 years. If we include the playoffs, Laine's rate drops to .494 G/GP.

Again, you're comparing Laine's 18 and 19 y/o seasons to Ovechkin's 20 and 21 y/o seasons.

Ovechkin scored 28 goals in 103 KHL games at age 18-19.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I see where ethe confusion is. when I said only Ovie scored more in Laine's first two seasons, i was talking about 16/17 and 17/18. I was not comparing Laine's first two seasons vs Ovechkin's first two seasons.

View attachment 953017

Ah, yes, that is confusing. I listed "first 2 seasons" in my response because the conversation seemed to be about player projection, and not just a snapshot.

you go dig up a post from 2018 that shows yousaying that laine's game was about to fall off a cliff and I'll tip my cap. Nobody was talking like that at the time. The comparisons were being made because Laine was putting up numbers that were atypical of someone playing their first two seasons at 18/19. Ovechkin was 20 before playing his 1st NHL game and Matthews was 19.


Three players (U20) in the history of the game scored more goals than Laine over their first two seasons and none were from the same era.

View attachment 953038

Curious as to why Matthews isn't on there with 74 goals in 144 games? His regular season rate is nearly lock-step with Laine over 16-17 and 17-18...

I made the claim so I'll offer this: 2016 Draft Thread | 7

My preference didn't change after Laine's 17-18 season. If the far more complete C is nearly matching the 1way W's goal rate, the rest should tip the C over the edge. It's just logic, then and now.

 

[Jerry the great]

Curious as to why Matthews isn't on there with 74 goals in 144 games? His regular season rate is nearly lock-step with Laine over 16-17 and 17-18...

He only played 1 season in the NHL as a teenager.

 

[Bleach Clean]

He only played 1 season in the NHL as a teenager.

Ah, early birthday within the same draft year.

Laine can be granted the shooting talent edge, and the conclusion that he was an inferior overall talent to Matthews would still hold. It looks stark now, but was still true in 2021-22 and 2022-23.

Talent evaluation errors happen.

 

[Quinntessential]

We really should’ve drafted Kopitar

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The end of an era.

 

[VanillaCoke]

I think pool party is claimed for some reason

 

[Hansen]

I forgot that Tanev is on the Leafs and I hate it so much

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

I forgot that Tanev is on the Leafs and I hate it so much

What’s crazy is that he’s for the most part stayed healthy since leaving here. It’s amazing how helpful not having to play high minutes for those dogshit Benning teams and blocking all those shots does for one’s health. Set I’ll playing great hockey at 35. f*** you Jim.

And yeah Tanev on the Leafs just feels dirty.

 

[bandwagonesque]

I must be the only hockey fan in in the world that almost never thinks about the Leafs. I don't watch them, I don't really interact with one who cares about them, and they just exist on the periphery of my awareness as a pretty good but perennially soft and underachieving team that is fun to watch in the event that they happen to be on when I have nothing better to do.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

I must be the only hockey fan in in the world that almost never thinks about the Leafs. I don't watch them, I don't really interact with one who cares about them, and they just exist on the periphery of my awareness as a pretty good but perennially soft and underachieving team that is fun to watch in the event that they happen to be on when I have nothing better to do.

It’s not so much the team for me, It’s the media. Both major sports networks are very Leaf centric, and Sportsnet no longer having regional content has only made it worse.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I think pool party is claimed for some reason

How the hell was he not...?

 

[Diversification]

I must be the only hockey fan in in the world that almost never thinks about the Leafs. I don't watch them, I don't really interact with one who cares about them, and they just exist on the periphery of my awareness as a pretty good but perennially soft and underachieving team that is fun to watch in the event that they happen to be on when I have nothing better to do.

Tuning into HNIC back in the day only to find out that you won't be watching the Canucks game until halfway through the first period instilled in me a deep and abiding hatred for TML that I will probably never outgrow.

 

[bandwagonesque]

It’s not so much the team for me, It’s the media. Both major sports networks are very Leaf centric, and Sportsnet no longer having regional content has only made it worse.

That doesn't surprise me. I don't really watch television anymore and exclusively stream games.

 

[Josepho]

I've cared less about Toronto now because A) we're actually a decent team now and B) it's better to invest energy in hating Edmonton.

But hatewatching the Leafs in the playoffs was really fun during the Benning years.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Anyone have any theories on what exactly Pittsburgh is going to do? They have no farm and literally no promising young players at all apart from maybe Rutger McGroarty. They've drafted in the 1st round twice in the past five drafts. They are absolutely loaded with still-productive veterans including two future Hall Of Famers with Conn Smythe-level playoff resumes still scoring around a PPG. Sid refuses to be traded, and I get that, but they've made no apparent effort to trade anyone else either.

 

[Canucker]

Anyone have any theories on what exactly Pittsburgh is going to do? They have no farm and literally no promising young players at all apart from maybe Rutger McGroarty. They've drafted in the 1st round twice in the past five drafts. They are absolutely loaded with still-productive veterans including two future Hall Of Famers with Conn Smythe-level playoff resumes still scoring around a PPG. Sid refuses to be traded, and I get that, but they've made no apparent effort to trade anyone else either.

They're in a real tight spot...I think all they're going to be able to do is tinker around the edges of their team until they can get out from some of their heavy contracts...they're got some guys who could get them some decent returns if they chose to move on, but the players they have are generally in the driver's seat...but, no sympathy from me, they've had a long stretch of having multiple generational players in their lineup with a bunch of SC's...time for them to have a "lull".

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Anyone have any theories on what exactly Pittsburgh is going to do? They have no farm and literally no promising young players at all apart from maybe Rutger McGroarty. They've drafted in the 1st round twice in the past five drafts. They are absolutely loaded with still-productive veterans including two future Hall Of Famers with Conn Smythe-level playoff resumes still scoring around a PPG. Sid refuses to be traded, and I get that, but they've made no apparent effort to trade anyone else either.

They traded Guentzel last season.

With Sid there, they won't do a full tear-down rebuild. But they also have no cap space nor prospects to make another run.

The most likely scenario is that they tinker around the corner and do their best to be a playoff team in the near future, and wait until Sid is retired before they do a full rebuild. There's just no other options at this point.

 

[bandwagonesque]

They traded Guentzel last season.

With Sid there, they won't do a full tear-down rebuild. But they also have no cap space nor prospects to make another run.

The most likely scenario is that they tinker around the corner and do their best to be a playoff team in the near future, and wait until Sid is retired before they do a full rebuild. There's just no other options at this point.

They're one of the worst teams in the league with every important player past his prime and declining and several of them on easily tradable contracts. It's absolutely crazy not to rebuild.

 

[JianYang]

They're one of the worst teams in the league with every important player past his prime and declining and several of them on easily tradable contracts. It's absolutely crazy not to rebuild.

They will have to eventually. But it looks like they are deadset to keep running it back until Crosby is no longer around.

Crosby took some time to decide staying there. I wonder if there was some hesitation due to Crosby wanting to make sure what he was signing up for. Because you would assume he would not partake in a rebuild at this time of his career.

It's similar to the Caps situation where they seem happy to keep going as long as ovechkin is around. Except in their case, they are actually having a pretty good season so far.

 

[4th line culture]

I dont think Chicago is that good. They probably aren't making the playoffs