Around the league part 2

[bland]

I think Fiala has the most points of any King since joining the team. Let’s see how he does paired up with Byfield for the upcoming season.

To what effect?

They are the exact same team with the exact same results - a bubble playoff team with a low ceiling. Fiala is empty points, he just has very little impact on the team's chances. There is a reason why he was made available - he is fancy rims on a team with transmission issues. He will never be a core player on any team, his brand of hockey will always make him just a productive outlier - and he doesn't produce enough to justify playing outside a team game.

 

[BigKing]

Yeah also, Fiala was injured when they brought him into the line up in 23 in the playoffs. Important context. Doughty's replacement is a crazy reach when you consider the fact that Faber would absolutely be blocked by Doughty. I don't buy into the nonsense that you could immediately plug in the Faber into the Kings line up before minnesota and he'd turn into the same player. Skill and environment a player plays in plays a huge role in their development. Fiala is by far the most talented player the Kings have had at forward. He outscored Kopitar this year playing on some of the worst possible lines. "Eating the weak match ups" while playing on atrocious lines is still impressive. On top of that. 2023 he was clearly injured because he joined the line up later when he was still hobbling. And in 2024 they played him with Lewis. The critiques with context hold zero weight.

Also, I do think it's pretty sad that a lot of people have so much hate for Fiala and would rather lambast him rather than appreciate the superstar talent he has. He's a great player playing in a stupid organization.

The '23 playoffs are his best one from a points perspective so maybe he should be injured more often.

Doughty's replacement isn't a huge reach: Faber just signed an eight year deal that doesn't go into effect until the 2026 season. Doughty has three seasons left and, God help us, Blake won't be around to sign him to a two year extension next summer.

This isn't about replacing Doughty last season or this one, it is about having a legit all-situations #1 RHD for basically his entire 20s.

By having 11 and 8 as the 1C and 1D for this effing long, the Kings have been in a position like the Packers and their quarterbacks. Favre-Rodgers-Love and pretty much seamless. Could say the Colts with one lost season when Manning got hurt, tank, draft Andrew Luck. Hopefully Byfield becomes a real 1C and we'll see if Clarke becomes a 1D, but Faber completely looks the part of that 1D that you can put out in the final two minutes of a one goal game whereas Clarke probably won't be that guy, and I say that as a huge Clarke fan. Regardless, the Kings have had the opportunity and, honestly, Blake has drafted and/or acquired a ton of centers and a ton of RHD so it appears he's been trying: he shot himself in the foot though by moving the guy that would have been the face of the Kings blueline for the next decade.

Again, it isn't Fiala's fault. He is a very talented player (superstar is a stretch) and there is nothing wrong with enjoying watching him play. Scoring wingers come available all the time though while young guys that just put up the year that Faber did rarely do. It was the wrong time to make the trade and Blake, shockingly, misjudged what he had in Faber just like he pretty much has with the entirety of his "#1 prospect pool".

 

[Johnny Utah]

But if you draft and trade for a bunch of RHD prospects--while basically ignoring the left side--you know that you won't have a spot for all of them. What does that mean? You trade from a strength to shore up weakness.

Blake traded the best one out of all of them and added a 1st round pick in the deal. Then he dumped the best piece of his Muzzin trade to clear cap space and acquire another asset to give away to Winnipeg in the Dubois deal. Grans was dumped to clear cap to get out of another bad contract and to fit the LHD Blake had to spend another 1st round pick on.

It is malpractice.

Doughty being here doesn't mean you have to piss away all of this RHD depth. You keep Faber. You trade Roy. You use Spence and Durzi as trade pieces and you move on from Grans earlier, even if it is for a similar prospect with a LHS on defense or a forward.

I disagree with you about which RHD move--or lack thereof--hurts the most: it is Faber. He is currently Blake's best draft pick and plays a premium position compared to Fiala. No GM in the league would do Faber for Fiala straight up today, never mind the 1st Blake attached.

Good call. Faber could have replaced Roy.

Blake could have moved Roy and a 1st for Fiala. Or even Durzi.

Holding onto Roy was a huge mistake - Blake had two deadlines to move him and didn't.

My only question in this scenario, where does this leave both Clarke and Spence?

Doughty-Anderson
Faber-Gavrikov
Spence/Clarke-Edmundson

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

To what effect?

They are the exact same team with the exact same results - a bubble playoff team with a low ceiling. Fiala is empty points, he just has very little impact on the team's chances. There is a reason why he was made available - he is fancy rims on a team with transmission issues. He will never be a core player on any team, his brand of hockey will always make him just a productive outlier - and he doesn't produce enough to justify playing outside a team game.

Look at how Minnesota has performed without Fiala since trading him. They dropped from 53 wins to 46 wins in their first season without him, and dropped further this past season to 39 wins, and fired their head coach. The team dropped from being 5th overall in Goals For with Fiala, to 22nd in Goals For the following season, and finished 21st in offense this past season.

The Kings jumped from 20th in GF to 9th in their first season with Fiala. This year they were 16th in the league, but there was another player who showed zero effort on the ice who is thankfully no longer with the team who can be blamed for not holding up his end of the bargain.

And you seem to forget the part about Fiala's game that makes him dangerous, which is his puck distribution. He's also strong on the puck. His problem is he tries to make fancy plays at times that burns him, and will sometimes force passes when he's playing the point on the PP.

If Fiala is so inept in his overall game, maybe you can explain why Minnesota has struggled so badly without him.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

To what effect?

They are the exact same team with the exact same results - a bubble playoff team with a low ceiling. Fiala is empty points, he just has very little impact on the team's chances. There is a reason why he was made available - he is fancy rims on a team with transmission issues. He will never be a core player on any team, his brand of hockey will always make him just a productive outlier - and he doesn't produce enough to justify playing outside a team game.

Yea, SALARY CAP was the ONLY reason he was "made available"

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

Blake could have moved Roy and a 1st for Fiala. Or even Durzi.

I mean..... Maybe not right??

Who says the Wild would've been willing to accept Roy and a 1st or Durzi and a 1st for Fiala??

'The Kings should've traded Doughty'
'The Kings should've traded Roy or Durzi and a 1st to the Wild for Fiala instead of Faber'

When we have no idea if these were ever legitimate options to begin with.. I've pointed out the very clear issues with trading Doughty back when the Kings were re-tooling. And we have no way of knowing whether or not the Wild would've been interested in Roy or Durzi in a Fiala trade. So we're kinda just making stuff up at this point...

 

[Johnny Utah]

I don't have a problem with trading Fiala for Faber and a 1st as Ziggy pointed out some stats above and Fiala is obv a dynamic player.

I don't have a problem moving Walker and his 2.75 million when the Kings have an abundance of RHD and he was a healthy scratch.

I have a HUGE problem moving Durzi for ONLY a 2nd and adding that 2nd to the PLD deal.

I have a HUGE problem letting Matt Roy leave for NOTHING.

 

[Bandit]

I still can’t believe Blake:
- traded for pld
- gave him a max contract
- jettisoned him after ONE seadon
- still has a job
- still has people here making excuses for him

Helen a Keller knew PLD was a disaster, and she’s DEAD.

 

[Schmooley]

Look at how Minnesota has performed without Fiala since trading him. They dropped from 53 wins to 46 wins in their first season without him, and dropped further this past season to 39 wins, and fired their head coach. The team dropped from being 5th overall in Goals For with Fiala, to 22nd in Goals For the following season, and finished 21st in offense this past season.

The Kings jumped from 20th in GF to 9th in their first season with Fiala. This year they were 16th in the league, but there was another player who showed zero effort on the ice who is thankfully no longer with the team who can be blamed for not holding up his end of the bargain.

And you seem to forget the part about Fiala's game that makes him dangerous, which is his puck distribution. He's also strong on the puck. His problem is he tries to make fancy plays at times that burns him, and will sometimes force passes when he's playing the point on the PP.

If Fiala is so inept in his overall game, maybe you can explain why Minnesota has struggled so badly without him.

Isnt Minnesota at a sizable cap disadvantage from the Parise and Suter buyouts?

 

[tigermask48]

Look at how Minnesota has performed without Fiala since trading him. They dropped from 53 wins to 46 wins in their first season without him, and dropped further this past season to 39 wins, and fired their head coach. The team dropped from being 5th overall in Goals For with Fiala, to 22nd in Goals For the following season, and finished 21st in offense this past season.

The Kings jumped from 20th in GF to 9th in their first season with Fiala. This year they were 16th in the league, but there was another player who showed zero effort on the ice who is thankfully no longer with the team who can be blamed for not holding up his end of the bargain.

And you seem to forget the part about Fiala's game that makes him dangerous, which is his puck distribution. He's also strong on the puck. His problem is he tries to make fancy plays at times that burns him, and will sometimes force passes when he's playing the point on the PP.

If Fiala is so inept in his overall game, maybe you can explain why Minnesota has struggled so badly without him.

All this and $6.00 gets you a cup of coffee and both franchises with 0 playoff rounds won so...

 

[Schmooley]

Dude it would've been SO damn hard to trade Doughty back when the Kings were re-tooling. Like virtually impossible lol.

• Doughty's level of play dipped when the team was at it's lowest.... 4-5 years ago, his $11 million cap hit was arguably the worst contract in the NHL

So if he was bad and his contract was so bloated he was negative asset then why are you going to play him half a game and cut a rebuild short to build a team around him?
You stick up for the organization so much but really you just shift each bad move to a different point where they messed up before it compounded.

 

[bland]

Look at how Minnesota has performed without Fiala since trading him. They dropped from 53 wins to 46 wins in their first season without him, and dropped further this past season to 39 wins, and fired their head coach. The team dropped from being 5th overall in Goals For with Fiala, to 22nd in Goals For the following season, and finished 21st in offense this past season.

The Kings jumped from 20th in GF to 9th in their first season with Fiala. This year they were 16th in the league, but there was another player who showed zero effort on the ice who is thankfully no longer with the team who can be blamed for not holding up his end of the bargain.

And you seem to forget the part about Fiala's game that makes him dangerous, which is his puck distribution. He's also strong on the puck. His problem is he tries to make fancy plays at times that burns him, and will sometimes force passes when he's playing the point on the PP.

If Fiala is so inept in his overall game, maybe you can explain why Minnesota has struggled so badly without him.

They haven't struggled without him - they made a BRILLIANT calculated decision to remove anchor contracts that had cemented in a stale room. It was going to cost then a few years, but it's going to give them the ability to allow younger players to dictate their course going forward. They chose not to allocate cap space to an ancillary player who put up very good numbers in a third line situation with two kids but was never considered as vital to success.

That's what Fiala is - a luxury, not a core piece. He is too busy trying to be "the man" every shift to fit into a team game that would actually allow him to be an impact player. He doesn't get it, and never will. It's not a winning style of hockey, it's exciting, empty calories that nobody with serious plans would touch.

 

[AbsentMojo]

It's more than just having vision and confidence though.... There are other factors here.

Doughty's level of play back when this hypothetical Doughty trade would've happened was pretty poor. Many around the league were labeling him as washed up and one of the worst contracts in the entire league.

Even if the Kings had a GM with the vision and confidence to trade Doughty - It takes two to tango... They would've needed to find a contending team (in order to convince Doughty to waive his NMC) who was willing to take on Drew Doughty and his $11m cap hit at a time when he wasn't playing very well. In any such trade, the Kings would've surely needed to add sweetener(s) to the trade to get this hypothetical contending team to agree to take on Doughty's contract.

Do we still think the Kings should've traded Doughty if it would've meant a trade consisting of one or more of the following?

• Kings retain (likely 25% or more) on Doughty's remaining salary (which again, would've been 3-5 years ago in this hypothetically... So we're talking about retaining salary for almost the entirety of Doughty's $11m contract)
• Kings attach a 1st round pick as part of the deal as a sweetener
• Kings attach an A or B tier prospect to the deal as a sweetener
• Kings take on a terrible contract in return

The Sharks had to retain salary on Karlsson's contract and still received an underwhelming return after Karlsson had just put up a 100 point season.... Any deal that would've moved Doughty out of LA would've been shockingly terrible.

You made some good points, but you've convinced yourself there couldnt be a win/win deal there - where I think there could be. Similar to how WPG unloaded PLDogshit to dumdum Bluc. I think DD has way more value than Karlsson since he knows how to play defense. Also, if the Kings said direction is going through major rebuild - could easily entice DD to waive his NTC. Toronto for sure would be a destination for him.. hometown boy and a team that perennially has issues on defense and has too many highly paid forwards.

 

[AbsentMojo]

They haven't struggled without him - they made a BRILLIANT calculated decision to remove anchor contracts that had cemented in a stale room. It was going to cost then a few years, but it's going to give them the ability to allow younger players to dictate their course going forward. They chose not to allocate cap space to an ancillary player who put up very good numbers in a third line situation with two kids but was never considered as vital to success.

That's what Fiala is - a luxury, not a core piece. He is too busy trying to be "the man" every shift to fit into a team game that would actually allow him to be an impact player. He doesn't get it, and never will. It's not a winning style of hockey, it's exciting, empty calories that nobody with serious plans would touch.

Agree with most of this with one exception.. Fiala is not trying to be the man.. he's not selfish - he is dynamic/chaotic which makes him hard to play with.. but, he is very unselfish in that whenever he draws defenders to himself he dishes off with some very nice passes that find open players. Last two seasons 23g49a, 29g44a. Maybe you meant he likes to have the puck on his stick.. that is true. He skates with the puck like a center very effectively through the neutral zone and has good ozone entries with possession - with the flaw that he sometimes forces passes and makes horrible turnovers. Fiala is a unicorn in that he is more effective with guys that are deferential.. he can take 2 bottom 6ers and get them to score 20 goals a piece. That is a weird skill that can pay dividends if used properly.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Isnt Minnesota at a sizable cap disadvantage from the Parise and Suter buyouts?

For a bit...which is why....wait for it....Fiala was available to begin with

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Agree with most of this with one exception.. Fiala is not trying to be the man.. he's not selfish - he is dynamic/chaotic which makes him hard to play with.. but, he is very unselfish in that whenever he draws defenders to himself he dishes off with some very nice passes that find open players. Last two seasons 23g49a, 29g44a. Maybe you meant he likes to have the puck on his stick.. that is true. He skates with the puck like a center very effectively through the neutral zone and has good ozone entries with possession - with the flaw that he sometimes forces passes and makes horrible turnovers. Fiala is a unicorn in that he is more effective with guys that are deferential.. he can take 2 bottom 6ers and get them to score 20 goals a piece. That is a weird skill that can pay dividends if used properly.

but even then the key characteristic is

it all evaporates in the playoffs

Like great, you got the guy as a luxury to dummy bottom feeders in the regular season. But he's CLEARLY not the guy to get ANY team 'over the hump.'

Bland is 100% correct here, he is the epitome of empty calories points. The guy's next meaningful goal will be his first.

And THAT is why it's a bad acquisition, bad asset management. He's not a bad player. He cares, he's dynamic, he's fun. But he doesn't get a team 'over the hump' so why mortgage your future on a fun golden retriever? It wasn't a good 'contender' trade to begin with--AND the Kings were NOT contenders.

These guys need to stop pretending they are the smartest guys in the room, they keep thinking their development program being different is amazing but it SUCKS and they keep acquiring guys who they think they can fix but they DONT.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

f***...the ignorance is thickening in this thread....

 

[AbsentMojo]

but even then the key characteristic is

it all evaporates in the playoffs

Like great, you got the guy as a luxury to dummy bottom feeders in the regular season. But he's CLEARLY not the guy to get ANY team 'over the hump.'

Bland is 100% correct here, he is the epitome of empty calories points. The guy's next meaningful goal will be his first.

I dont get why he is being evaluated in the frame of 'get you over the hump'.. prime gretzky on steroids couldnt have gotten that roster carcass Blake put together over the hump. He is an asset that needs to be used properly.. and we all know this f-ing clueless organization wouldnt know how to do it. His historical playoff numbers are up and down.. that may or may not be his fault on the down years. Wasnt he playing with Lizotte and Lewis this last playoffs? Im gonna disagree he is empty calories - he just not high calories. I have just as much gut wrench as you and Bland over the trade though thats for sure. F Bluc and the horse they rode in on.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

People used to say the same thing around here about Gaborik, until he got the chance to play in some meaningful games here. But unlike Gaborik, Fiala is expected to carry his weight playing with plugs.

 

[King'sPawn]

I dont get why he is being evaluated in the frame of 'get you over the hump'.. prime gretzky on steroids couldnt have gotten that roster carcass Blake put together over the hump. He is an asset that needs to be used properly.. and we all know this f-ing clueless organization wouldnt know how to do it. His historical playoff numbers are up and down.. that may or may not be his fault on the down years. Wasnt he playing with Lizotte and Lewis this last playoffs? Im gonna disagree he is empty calories - he just not high calories. I have just as much gut wrench as you and Bland over the trade though thats for sure. F Bluc and the horse they rode in on.

We evaluate the trade as a team getting out of the rebuild and trying to make the playoffs, since they managed to do it the season before trading for him (after acquiring Danault and Arvidsson).

If he wasn't brought in to get the team over the hump, then why pay such a high cost?

If it was to get the team over the hump, then to date, the trade is a colossal failure.

People used to say the same thing around here about Gaborik, until he got the chance to play in some meaningful games here. But unlike Gaborik, Fiala is expected to carry his weight playing with plugs.

Fiala's played with everyone. Saying he's playing with plugs is an excuse.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

We evaluate the trade as a team getting out of the rebuild and trying to make the playoffs, since they managed to do it the season before trading for him (after acquiring Danault and Arvidsson).

If he wasn't brought in to get the team over the hump, then why pay such a high cost?

If it was to get the team over the hump, then to date, the trade is a colossal failure.


Fiala's played with everyone. Saying he's playing with plugs is an excuse.

Was it a high cost at the time, a LATE 1st....and an unproven prospect, for a 25 year old scoring winger....

A high cost? Cmon man....

 

[AbsentMojo]

We evaluate the trade as a team getting out of the rebuild and trying to make the playoffs, since they managed to do it the season before trading for him (after acquiring Danault and Arvidsson).

If he wasn't brought in to get the team over the hump, then why pay such a high cost?

If it was to get the team over the hump, then to date, the trade is a colossal failure.

Got it. But thats a trade evaluation more than a player evaluation... and 100% agree with the trade evaluation. I was looking at Fiala the player - reacting to the selfish / no calorie comments. But totally agree that Blake f***ed up badly esp in retrospect - its another huge failure on his resume. I dont know how the hell this guy is still around.

Edit: actually i see you were addressing my first sentence..re why we framing it re over the hump.. thx

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

We evaluate the trade as a team getting out of the rebuild and trying to make the playoffs, since they managed to do it the season before trading for him (after acquiring Danault and Arvidsson).

If he wasn't brought in to get the team over the hump, then why pay such a high cost?

If it was to get the team over the hump, then to date, the trade is a colossal failure.


Fiala's played with everyone. Saying he's playing with plugs is an excuse.

Fiala was most productive with Danault and Moore, but they broke that line apart when they shouldn’t have and put Arvidsson back with them and inserted Fiala with Lizotte and Lewis the rest of the season. That isn’t an excuse, that’s what happened. They also had Fiala with Dubois and Laferriere, which was the only even-strength line Fiala played on that was a minus last season.

 

[johnjm22]

The value was correct at the time; a 1st and a quality prospect. That still doesn't make it a good trade.

To his credit, Fiala tries. He puts in the effort. This isn't a PLD situation. He also played with more discipline in the back half of the year.

But he's simply not an impact player. He's an undersized skilled offensive winger with a low hockey IQ, who cancels out every other point he produces.

 

[King'sPawn]

Was it a high cost at the time, a LATE 1st....and an unproven prospect, for a 25 year old scoring winger....

A high cost? Cmon man....

Plenty of people, including Herby, bland, and myself said the trade was awful. Even if you want to say he's unproven at the NHL level, he quickly moved his way up in the hockey world and was an Olympian at the age of 19, months after being traded.

I know you like to pretend that everyone looks at things in hindsight, but the schtick won't fly here.

Fiala was most productive with Danault and Moore, but they broke that line apart when they shouldn’t have and put Arvidsson back with them and inserted Fiala with Lizotte and Lewis the rest of the season. That isn’t an excuse, that’s what happened. They also had Fiala with Dubois and Laferriere, which was the only even-strength line Fiala played on that was a minus last season.

Virtually everyone plays better with Danault and Moore. That's what makes them a great pair. I honestly can't think of a player whose level of play drops on their line.

Why do the one-dimensional vets, like PLD and Fiala, get the "they were playing with plugs" defense when they're the ones supposed to be making their lines better?

Got it. But thats a trade evaluation more than a player evaluation... and 100% agree with the trade evaluation. I was looking at Fiala the player - reacting to the selfish / no calorie comments. But totally agree that Blake f***ed up badly esp in retrospect - its another huge failure on his resume. I dont know how the hell this guy is still around.

Edit: actually i see you were addressing my first sentence..re why we framing it re over the hump.. thx

Sorry, I should have emphasized what I was responding to.