Around the League - 2023 Offseason Edition

[Colorado Avalanche]

The Pens are too old. Just retain on Crosby and trade him to us already.

Exactly. Waste of Crosby.

 

[ABasin]

I disagree. I think you'll see a fall off in fans in younger generations. It's happening in other sports, and I'd argue it's happening in hockey too. Colorado Springs has seen a decline in youth participation over the last 3-4 years.

If so, I can’t help but wonder if that’s simply due to cost. Youth hockey is expensive, and life in general has gotten more expensive over that same time period.

I admit, I’m pretty ambivalent about the whole tape thing. I’m fine with it, would also be fine without it, I’m good just watching 3 periods then going home. But I do think the NHL making a public point of it is dumb on their part.

 

[henchman21]

Hockey participation is consistently up across the US and the faster rates are in the lower age brackets. You might find individual pockets where participation is down, but the overall trend is up. There are some complications with Covid because that caused a massive drop in participation in all sports (sans golf). 23-24 is expected to be a new record year for USA Hockey numbers and up around 10% compared to a decade ago.

Where there should be concern in hockey participation is actually Canada... that is the country that is consistently having issues keeping the rates high. Europe as a whole has recovered, and exceeded in some cases, from the Covid drop. US will have records.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Hockey participation is consistently up across the US and the faster rates are in the lower age brackets. You might find individual pockets where participation is down, but the overall trend is up. There are some complications with Covid because that caused a massive drop in participation in all sports (sans golf). 23-24 is expected to be a new record year for USA Hockey numbers and up around 10% compared to a decade ago.

Where there should be concern in hockey participation is actually Canada... that is the country that is consistently having issues keeping the rates high. Europe as a whole has recovered, and exceeded in some cases, from the Covid drop. US will have records.

When you say hockey participation is up. Does that mean that the net number of kids playing is up. Or does that mean that the % of kids who play hockey is up. Two different kinds of growth. The first can be due to just the natural increase in population. However, if the % of kids who are playing hockey is going up, that means the game is growing in my mind.

 

[dahrougem2]

Lol Pittsburgh. Watch them miss the playoffs again.

 

[sethro109]

Lol Pittsburgh. Watch them miss the playoffs again.

I hope they crumble hard and fast and are out of the playoffs come the TDL. Then Crosby demands to be traded to the team where his buddy MacK is.

 

[henchman21]

When you say hockey participation is up. Does that mean that the net number of kids playing is up. Or does that mean that the % of kids who play hockey is up. Two different kinds of growth. The first can be due to just the natural increase in population. However, if the % of kids who are playing hockey is going up, that means the game is growing in my mind.

The raw number is actually flat over the last 4 years (Covid dropped participation and it is just recovering now), but over 10 years ago the raw number is up about that 10%. But it is actually both. We actually have less kids 6-17 in the US today than we did in 2010 (about a million or so less). It not a huge difference, but the US is one of the countries not having an adequate replacement rate and will be experiencing a population decrease over the coming years. It would already be heavily happening if we didn't have a strong net positive immigration. There are some signs that there was a covid baby boom, but who knows if that will sustain long enough to see the 6-17 ages have significant growth in the coming years.

When you go back further... and you're looking at the year 2000 with roughly 73m kids (0-17) total and roughly 330k youth participants. Last year with roughly 72.5m kids and roughly 390k youth participants.

Honestly, the demographics of youth hockey are as strong as they have been and with the records expected over the next few years, it is really hard to say the future of the game is in doubt. It actually presents the case quite well that the NHL can expand with the expected increase in talent available in the US. For the love of god though, we need a 2nd top tier junior league in the US. A western version of the USHL (Avs, Kings, Knights, and Sharks ownership are all already pushing for this).

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

I hope they crumble hard and fast and are out of the playoffs come the TDL. Then Crosby demands to be traded to the team where his buddy MacK is.
View attachment 751054

We would need to make it happen somehow.

Imagine adding Crosby and Landeskog at the trade deadline.

Wohooo

 

[Bill Peckerskull]

We would need to make it happen somehow.

Imagine adding Crosby and Landeskog at the trade deadline.

Wohooo

$15.7M in salary? Who you moving out? Rantanen and Nuke?

 

[sethro109]

$15.7M in salary? Who you moving out? Rantanen and Nuke?

Landy will be for the playoffs and Crosby would have to be doubled retained. So significantly less.

 

[henchman21]

FSG has made it very clear that Crosby, Malkin and Letang are finishing their careers in Pittsburgh. That's pretty much the whole reason the the last gasp moves.

 

[sethro109]

FSG has made it very clear that Crosby, Malkin and Letang are finishing their careers in Pittsburgh. That's pretty much the whole reason the the last gasp moves.

All my hopes and prayers are based on the unlikely scenario that Crosby gets so fed up with losing he demands a trade. Next year would be way more likely though since his contract has another year.

 

[95snipes]

The raw number is actually flat over the last 4 years (Covid dropped participation and it is just recovering now), but over 10 years ago the raw number is up about that 10%. But it is actually both. We actually have less kids 6-17 in the US today than we did in 2010 (about a million or so less). It not a huge difference, but the US is one of the countries not having an adequate replacement rate and will be experiencing a population decrease over the coming years. It would already be heavily happening if we didn't have a strong net positive immigration. There are some signs that there was a covid baby boom, but who knows if that will sustain long enough to see the 6-17 ages have significant growth in the coming years.

When you go back further... and you're looking at the year 2000 with roughly 73m kids (0-17) total and roughly 330k youth participants. Last year with roughly 72.5m kids and roughly 390k youth participants.

Honestly, the demographics of youth hockey are as strong as they have been and with the records expected over the next few years, it is really hard to say the future of the game is in doubt. It actually presents the case quite well that the NHL can expand with the expected increase in talent available in the US. For the love of god though, we need a 2nd top tier junior league in the US. A western version of the USHL (Avs, Kings, Knights, and Sharks ownership are all already pushing for this).

Why? I think USHL is perfect as is. The talent doesn't need to be diluted.

 

[henchman21]

All my hopes and prayers are based on the unlikely scenario that Crosby gets so fed up with losing he demands a trade. Next year would be way more likely though since his contract has another year.

I can't imagine the most bland superstar in sports is going to do such a thing. He's going to continue to ask that the Pens try to ice a great team, and FSG will continue to push Dubas to do so. Just until the wheels are off and the core 3 retire. I think we have ~2-3 more seasons after this of this charade.

 

[henchman21]

Why? I think USHL is perfect as is. The talent doesn't need to be diluted.

The USHL is fantastic, and it might be an unpopular opinion, but I think it is clearly the best junior hockey league in the game (and the results back that up).

It isn't about the USHL though and about creating more opportunities for American players who are on the fringe. Getting into the USHL today is incredibly tough. You pretty much have to be a legit NCAA prospect to get a shot. If I was coming up today, I likely wouldn't have made the USHL just due to how much talent there is. Now I developed over my time in the league to get to an adequate level... but I'd be a NAHL player for a year or two today. Many young US based players are facing this and if they don't make the 16 teams they are either in a much worse US based league or have to go to Canada (BCHL or OJHL namely). There should be more opportunity to develop these kids in the US, and the USHL has been very difficult to get to expand. A 10 team western based league (plans are for 6 right now with 2 expansion teams quickly) would go a long ways to providing the right number of spots and advancing US based development. It would hurt the USHL in the interim, but the long-term gains outweigh that.

 

[sethro109]

I can't imagine the most bland superstar in sports is going to do such a thing. He's going to continue to ask that the Pens try to ice a great team, and FSG will continue to push Dubas to do so. Just until the wheels are off and the core 3 retire. I think we have ~2-3 more seasons after this of this charade.

That's exactly why I called it my hopes and prayers. The likelihood of that happening is extremely low. A rift would have to form between ownership and Crosby.

 

[95snipes]

The USHL is fantastic, and it might be an unpopular opinion, but I think it is clearly the best junior hockey league in the game (and the results back that up).

It isn't about the USHL though and about creating more opportunities for American players who are on the fringe. Getting into the USHL today is incredibly tough. You pretty much have to be a legit NCAA prospect to get a shot. If I was coming up today, I likely wouldn't have made the USHL just due to how much talent there is. Now I developed over my time in the league to get to an adequate level... but I'd be a NAHL player for a year or two today. Many young US based players are facing this and if they don't make the 16 teams they are either in a much worse US based league or have to go to Canada (BCHL or OJHL namely). There should be more opportunity to develop these kids in the US, and the USHL has been very difficult to get to expand. A 10 team western based league (plans are for 6 right now with 2 expansion teams quickly) would go a long ways to providing the right number of spots and advancing US based development. It would hurt the USHL in the interim, but the long-term gains outweigh that.

I agree with your first sentence.

To the second paragraph, isn't that what the NAHL / NCDC is for?

 

[Chiarelli]

Daddy chill. Pittsburgh lost one game that they were leading the majority of. The knee jerk reactions on here are great. Pick up Nick Paul in fantasy he’s on pace for 164 goals!

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

$15.7M in salary? Who you moving out? Rantanen and Nuke?

Sorry meant for the playoffs Landy. So only Crosby.

 

[henchman21]

I agree with your first sentence.

To the second paragraph, isn't that what the NAHL / NCDC is for?

Both of those leagues are inadequately run and don't have the proper funding/support to actually get to a USHL level. In fact, the NAHL leans into the idea they are now a feeder league for depth into the USHL. We need an WHL/OHL sort of split... not a OHL/OJHL split. NCDC is also an absolute joke... zero chance that can become a top tier league. A solution could be an expansion to a 24-26 team USHL league, but there doesn't seen to be much appetite for that.

The US simply needs more top tier junior spots to support the talent pool. If you stopped the migration north to the BCHL and CHL leagues, you could legitimately have 30+ top tier US based junior teams. The ~70 Americans a year combined in WHL and OHL, the 5-10 in QMJHL, and 130+ in BCHL.... that's 8+ teams right there. Then figure the USHL runs at about a 25% import rate... there are 11-12 teams worth of talent playing elsewhere in the world. Not to mention there are 30-40 NAHL players who could easily play in the USHL today and if you raided Minnesota high school hockey another few teams there quite easily (that'll ruffle feathers though).

So IMO... either you massively expand the USHL to make it the primary place for all US based hockey talent... and for those that want to play NCAA. Or you build up a western based league to siphon off that talent and over 15 years end up with 2 16 team leagues. The talent pool is available to support that many teams, you just need to build the infrastructure and support.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

FSG has made it very clear that Crosby, Malkin and Letang are finishing their careers in Pittsburgh. That's pretty much the whole reason the the last gasp moves.

I believe that to a point. As long as they are somewhat competent. If they crash out of playoffs. I can see them admitting total rebuild sooner and their older players leaving earlier. I doubt Malkin, Crosby, Karlsson want to play rest of their career for a horrible team.

They would have to fail badly thou, which I don't see happening. Too much quality.

 

[LOFIN]

Move over to the other thread already

 

[henchman21]

I believe that to a point. As long as they are somewhat competent. If they crash out of playoffs. I can see them admitting total rebuild sooner and their older players leaving earlier. I doubt Malkin, Crosby, Karlsson want to play rest of their career for a horrible team.

They would have to fail badly thou, which I don't see happening. Too much quality.

It is basically a 2-3 season thing. Malkin is certainly retiring at the end of his deal. I don't think Letang makes it to the end of his deal. Crosby will just go year to year after next season. So if they push this and next season, then the wheels fall off year 3. That's honestly probably the end all all three retire... with Crosby being named GM a few years after that.

 

[Muffin]

I believe that to a point. As long as they are somewhat competent. If they crash out of playoffs. I can see them admitting total rebuild sooner and their older players leaving earlier. I doubt Malkin, Crosby, Karlsson want to play rest of their career for a horrible team.

They would have to fail badly thou, which I don't see happening. Too much quality.

Karlsson is finishing his career in Pittsburgh unless he gets bought out. No one is touching that contract. Can't believe they traded for him after one outlier year especially with Letang on the team already.

 

[Chiarelli]

Bedard was 15% on faceoffs last night so naturally that stat will not be important in this particular scenario for the people that endorse it’s importance