Around the League 2018-2019 Part 3

[Choralone]

Dean developed a winning formula. So he's a terrible GM for doubling down on that formula it when the team's window was closing?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Was the original question.




Was your myopic response, that DL somehow deserves constant pot shots from you from thread to thread because of the World Cup team, which is easily rebutted with what DL accomplished here, before you veer off into total non-sequiturs like



Oh right, DL, Kings GM Dean Lombardi from 2015 to 2019 and nothing before except the World Cup of Hockey apparently.


Look you're entitled to your opinion, you can hate DL all you want. But you can't be upset when people are just pointing out how far off the road you've driven to justify the false parts.

What are the false parts I’m justifying? I guess using data up until 2014 is fine but using more recent results to rebuke a point is “false.”

It appears some of you are as antiquated as Dean Lombardi.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Dean developed a winning formula. So he's a terrible GM for doubling down on that formula it when the team's window was closing?

His fault is failing to realize what is in front of him and drying the pipeline of any talent, which has set the team back for years.

You overdramatic types need to realize that I never called him a terrible GM, he just buried his head in the sand and ignored a plethora of problems that creeped up in 2015, and failed to make adjustments to correct those problems.

The 2016 World Cup team, a team he assembled with no restraints, that’s an example of him being stuck in the past. He thought he’d put together a physically imposing team with the likes of Justin Abdelkader on the squad. That’s as comical as Canada sending Shayne Corson or Rob Zamuner as national team representatives.

And where exactly have the Flyers gone with the Cup building Kings’ staffers providing their guidance?

Think Bruins fans should be groveling at Peter Chiarelli’s feet for bringing a Cup to Boston in 2011? Should they gloss over his mistakes?

The Oilers must’ve made a costly mistake letting him go, but they just hired a GM with four Stanley Cups to his name, albeit ages ago, so I’m sure they’re in good hands there because a GM with four Cups never makes mistakes.

 

[lumbergh]

I’m happy for Dave Taylor. It’s too bad he never got to hoist the Cup as a King. What a weird thing to see him win as a Blue.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

His fault is failing to realize what is in front of him and drying the pipeline of any talent, which has set the team back for years.

You overdramatic types need to realize that I never called him a terrible GM, he just buried his head in the sand and ignored a plethora of problems that creeped up in 2015, and failed to make adjustments to correct those problems.

The 2016 World Cup team, a team he assembled with no restraints, that’s an example of him being stuck in the past. He thought he’d put together a physically imposing team with the likes of Justin Abdelkader on the squad. That’s as comical as Canada sending Shayne Corson or Rob Zamuner as national team representatives.

And where exactly have the Flyers gone with the Cup building Kings’ staffers providing their guidance?

Think Bruins fans should be groveling at Peter Chiarelli’s feet for bringing a Cup to Boston in 2011? Should they gloss over his mistakes?

The Oilers must’ve made a costly mistake letting him go, but they just hired a GM with four Stanley Cups to his name, albeit ages ago, so I’m sure they’re in good hands there because a GM with four Cups never makes mistakes.

No really, keep going, you're almost at the edge of the map

"Why all the potshots at DL?" "Because Bruins and Chiarelli."

Must be everyone else being overdramatic though. A simple question that you still haven't answered didn't really need you to lead alllll the way over here.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

No really, keep going, you're almost at the edge of the map

"Why all the potshots at DL?" "Because Bruins and Chiarelli."

Must be everyone else being overdramatic though. A simple question that you still haven't answered didn't really need you to lead alllll the way over here.

What question haven't I answered? Maybe you are too dense to realize I answered the question when I stated that the man failed to acknowledge his failings. Something you tend to do yourself. But hey, you love moving those goal posts just as much as you like to accuse others of doing the same. I just call out people on their bullshit, which you seem to be full of from time to time.

And of course when examples are brought up, you skirt the issue.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

What question haven't I answered? Maybe you are too dense to realize I answered the question when I stated that the man failed to acknowledge his failings. Something you tend to do yourself. But hey, you love moving those goal posts just as much as you like to accuse others of doing the same. I just call out people on their bull****, which you seem to be full of from time to time.

And of course when examples are brought up, you skirt the issue.

Come on, man. You've spent two pages talking to more than just me.

More than one person has literally just wondered why you always take the drive-by pot shots at DL with just about every mention of his name.

Clearly you're not a fan. That's fine. It's not a fear of talking about DL or a non-acknowledgement of the past or whatever run away freight train of fallacy you're on right now, it's simply just..."why?" can you not make a post heralding news that involves Lombardi without somehow letting your apparently seething rage get the best of you. That's all. Especially when it doesn't even mention him.

Good night.

 

[kingsfan28]

I know enough about Dean Lombardi to tell you the man learns from his mistakes.

Besides, given the performance of St. Louis and Boston compared to teams such as Tampa Bay and Calgary, I am not sure the basic tenants he used to build the Kings Stanley Cup championship teams are that far off from what is required today.

I don't think so either, but the difference was they kept their picks and actually drafted guys who could score as well as hit. Another thing both team saw was the league was evolving and moving towards a quicker, faster paced game. DL was in total denial until the day he got fired.

 

[King'sPawn]

I think it's safe to say DL had good years and bad years. The best from 2012-14 and the worst from 2015-17.

We can argue round and round about what DL would do now. I'm honestly not sure myself. I don't think he would still be chasing a cup, but I don't think we'd get players like Kupari, Petersen, etc. Or even Kovalchuk or Prokhorkin coming over.

A lot has changed in the past couple years and one thing we know, for better or worse, the organization would be very different with Lombardi.

I just hope Blake stays true to his vision and continues making a long term commitment to winning another cup in LA eventually.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I guess it touches on nerves and penetrates some thin skin when a sensitive subject is brought up. Must be like picking on a scab from wounds that haven't healed yet.

I'll slow down some things for you Deano Diehards who get all hot and bothered when he's criticized.

I brought up the changes within the Flyers' organization and that a position that was held by Dean Lombardi was being overtaken by Paul Holmgren (seems like Philly also suffers from this supposed old boys club). I noted how it would be interesting to see what type of team he'd assemble from scratch and used his experience from the 2016 US World Cup team that didn't win a single game.

Apparently that offended some on here who make a laundry list of excuses for a team that has performed well below expectations due to the events that transpired post-2014. There are no questions or facts that I'm avoiding nor ignoring like some tend to do on here. There's no supposed stretching of goal posts going on. Those are the facts. That .111 post season winning percentage over half a decade isn't some superfluous anomaly drawn from a small sample size. Having the fourth least amount of playoff games played isn't a misnomer.

The names I brought up were also stuck in the past. Brian Burke and Dean Lombardi are cut from the same cloth. They love the brash and brawn style of hockey (which I enjoy as well, with a balance of skill), and look at the success, or lack thereof, that some of these Cup winning GMs after tasting champagne from Lord Stanley. They've all failed to adapt. Just like fans stuck in the past, they all suffer from myopia.

I guess we can take solace in seeing the Chicago Blackhawks are suffering from a similar fate. I'd also mention the Penguins with their fans shitting all over Rutherford, but they have yet to underachieve to the point that they miss the post season.

 

[kingsfan28]

By the numbers: A look at the 10 worst contracts in hockey

2. Drew Doughty, LAK
Contract: $11M x eight years
Surplus Value: -$55.7M
Positive Value Probability: 6.1%

I am not sure how "surplus value" and "positive value probability" are calculated. You would have to go to other links within the article to figure it out. Part of it is based on "GSVA", whatever that is, but I think the author is trying to be controversial by having Doughty on this list at #2.

Kopitar does not appear on the list, which I find laughable if Doughty has the second worst contract in the NHL. Also, where is Toews on this list? One good season bails him out and off the list? I don't think so.

Toews, Ryan, Weber, Sutter, Price and add Karlsson to the list too. I wonder if Lucic was #1?

 

[kingsfan28]

I think it's safe to say DL had good years and bad years. The best from 2012-14 and the worst from 2015-17.

We can argue round and round about what DL would do now. I'm honestly not sure myself. I don't think he would still be chasing a cup, but I don't think we'd get players like Kupari, Petersen, etc. Or even Kovalchuk or Prokhorkin coming over.

A lot has changed in the past couple years and one thing we know, for better or worse, the organization would be very different with Lombardi.

I just hope Blake stays true to his vision and continues making a long term commitment to winning another cup in LA eventually.

You can already see the difference, especially in the guys we've drafted with Blake. How many times did we hear about the insane checklist that DL used to draft guys, good players who were passed up because they didn't meet his character check box. Would he have drafted Valardi and Anderson-Dolan or in this years draft Kaliyev? My guess is probably not. The man was very set in his ways and I really don't see him changing that much . Would he had fired Steven or just pass the buck onto the players and claim the loyalty card like with Sutter.

 

[KingsFan7824]

You overdramatic types need to realize that I never called him a terrible GM, he just buried his head in the sand and ignored a plethora of problems that creeped up in 2015, and failed to make adjustments to correct those problems.

The problems were creeping in before the 2nd Cup. Then the team was also down 0-3, and looked bad doing it. Then they went on a crazy run, solidifying the "just get in" mentality, which then made Lombardi believe in the team at the 2015 deadline, which also probably then played a part in getting Lucic.

 

[kovacro]

Nice deal for the 'Canes. I suppose JW may not be going back.

https://www.tsn.ca/carolina-hurricanes-sign-f-dzingel-to-two-year-deal-1.1336380

Not sure what the price would be. Former 1st round pick looking for a fresh start.

https://www.tsn.ca/report-dallas-stars-are-trying-to-trade-d-julius-honka-1.1336367

 

[Mats26]

Nice deal for the 'Canes. I suppose JW may not be going back.

https://www.tsn.ca/carolina-hurricanes-sign-f-dzingel-to-two-year-deal-1.1336380

Not sure what the price would be. Former 1st round pick looking for a fresh start.

https://www.tsn.ca/report-dallas-stars-are-trying-to-trade-d-julius-honka-1.1336367

Sucks cause I thought Dzingel is a good player to have in our top 6.
Anyways, I predicted this would happen that GMs (and Agents) would be more prepared for the next expansion draft. All these 2 year deals for "bridge players" are no coincidence. If the player excels, teams can work out a deal prior to the expansion draft to sign them on July 1st (unofficially), leaving them unprotected for the expansion draft as UFAs. You can protect extra players this way.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Would he have drafted Valardi and Anderson-Dolan or in this years draft Kaliyev? My guess is probably not.

Let's talk if/when any of those players become NHL regulars.

 

[KINGS17]

I think it's safe to say DL had good years and bad years. The best from 2012-14 and the worst from 2015-17.

We can argue round and round about what DL would do now. I'm honestly not sure myself. I don't think he would still be chasing a cup, but I don't think we'd get players like Kupari, Petersen, etc. Or even Kovalchuk or Prokhorkin coming over.

A lot has changed in the past couple years and one thing we know, for better or worse, the organization would be very different with Lombardi.

I just hope Blake stays true to his vision and continues making a long term commitment to winning another cup in LA eventually.

Yeah, that is pretty safe. It's obvious once the first domino of failure he set in place by not using a compliance buyout on Richards meant he was on a course to put his trust and faith in "his boys" no matter what. That was his biggest mistake, he forgot players are assets and should be treated as such.

Whether or not players like Petersen, Kovalchuk, or Prokhorkin would have come to the Kings under Dean matters much in the long run. They look to be strictly fillers to me to get through the chop of the next few seasons before the prospects start to find their way onto the NHL roster.

Bottom line for me is I think Dean Lombardi would have done critical self evaluation on his errors and the mistakes he made. In my opinion Dean is still capable of building a championship caliber team. Longevity as a contender is the part he didn't figure out.

 

[KINGS17]

You can already see the difference, especially in the guys we've drafted with Blake. How many times did we hear about the insane checklist that DL used to draft guys, good players who were passed up because they didn't meet his character check box. Would he have drafted Valardi and Anderson-Dolan or in this years draft Kaliyev? My guess is probably not. The man was very set in his ways and I really don't see him changing that much . Would he had fired Steven or just pass the buck onto the players and claim the loyalty card like with Sutter.

I will remind you how everyone freaked out here when Blake took Tobias Björnfot with the Kings 2nd first round pick, and one of the things Blake talked about was the kid's character.

To me, Vilardi is exactly the kind of player Dean would have drafted, big center with some skill who dropped down the board due to injury concerns.

 

[crassbonanza]

The names I brought up were also stuck in the past. Brian Burke and Dean Lombardi are cut from the same cloth. They love the brash and brawn style of hockey (which I enjoy as well, with a balance of skill), and look at the success, or lack thereof, that some of these Cup winning GMs after tasting champagne from Lord Stanley. They've all failed to adapt. Just like fans stuck in the past, they all suffer from myopia.

Yeah, a big and tough team that played a bash and brawn style of hockey could never have success in the modern NHL. Teams like Vegas and St. Louis don't have a chance at going deep in the playoffs.

 

[KINGS17]

Toews, Ryan, Weber, Sutter, Price and add Karlsson to the list too. I wonder if Lucic was #1?

#1 was Seabrook. Lucic was in the top 10 though.

 

[deeshamrock]

Nice deal for the 'Canes. I suppose JW may not be going back.

https://www.tsn.ca/carolina-hurricanes-sign-f-dzingel-to-two-year-deal-1.1336380

Not sure what the price would be. Former 1st round pick looking for a fresh start.

https://www.tsn.ca/report-dallas-stars-are-trying-to-trade-d-julius-honka-1.1336367

Great deal for the Canes...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yeah, a big and tough team that played a bash and brawn style of hockey could never have success in the modern NHL. Teams like Vegas and St. Louis don't have a chance at going deep in the playoffs.

I guess you failed to notice how Vegas skated circles around the Kings in the playoffs, and how the Kings barely even had any possession time with the puck, or how the Blues have this thing you may be unfamiliar with that’s called talent and scoring depth.

The Blues had 13 players who scored in the double digits in goals, and that list includes three defensemen. They got contributions, offensively and physically, from every player in the lineup.

And they’ve also happened to draft well, which is what got them most of that talent without having to rely on free agency. That’s what winning teams do.

 

[KINGS17]

I guess it touches on nerves and penetrates some thin skin when a sensitive subject is brought up. Must be like picking on a scab from wounds that haven't healed yet.

I'll slow down some things for you Deano Diehards who get all hot and bothered when he's criticized.

I brought up the changes within the Flyers' organization and that a position that was held by Dean Lombardi was being overtaken by Paul Holmgren (seems like Philly also suffers from this supposed old boys club). I noted how it would be interesting to see what type of team he'd assemble from scratch and used his experience from the 2016 US World Cup team that didn't win a single game.

Apparently that offended some on here who make a laundry list of excuses for a team that has performed well below expectations due to the events that transpired post-2014. There are no questions or facts that I'm avoiding nor ignoring like some tend to do on here. There's no supposed stretching of goal posts going on. Those are the facts. That .111 post season winning percentage over half a decade isn't some superfluous anomaly drawn from a small sample size. Having the fourth least amount of playoff games played isn't a misnomer.

The names I brought up were also stuck in the past. Brian Burke and Dean Lombardi are cut from the same cloth. They love the brash and brawn style of hockey (which I enjoy as well, with a balance of skill), and look at the success, or lack thereof, that some of these Cup winning GMs after tasting champagne from Lord Stanley. They've all failed to adapt. Just like fans stuck in the past, they all suffer from myopia.

I guess we can take solace in seeing the Chicago Blackhawks are suffering from a similar fate. I'd also mention the Penguins with their fans ****ting all over Rutherford, but they have yet to underachieve to the point that they miss the post season.

I think the only thing I would take issue with here is you assume it is the style of play that became outmoded. I think last year's playoffs showed bigger than the other team, more physical than the other team, and fast enough still works. The Kings skaters in 2012-2014 weren't exactly slugs out there.

I think where the problem really lies is that Dean didn't refresh the roster with players that were willing to play the style he wanted. That and the leaders on the roster became complacent after they got their fat retirement contracts. Handing those out was a mistake as well. Ultimately, it was time to recognize the run was over after the 2014-15 season.

Everyone seems to accept the idea that the retirement contracts are part of the price of past success. Well, if you are the GM of a Stanley Cup championship team, don't pay for past success.

 

[crassbonanza]

I guess you failed to notice how Vegas skated circles around the Kings in the playoffs, and how the Kings barely even had any possession time with the puck, or how the Blues have this thing you may be unfamiliar with that’s called talent and scoring depth.

The Blues had 13 players who scored in the double digits in goals, and that list includes three defensemen. They got contributions, offensively and physically, from every player in the lineup.

And they’ve also happened to draft well, which is what got them most of that talent without having to rely on free agency. That’s what winning teams do.

Ah, so you can play the bash and brawn style of hockey and have success in the modern NHL, but need depth. Somebody should let those dinosaurs know the importance of depth.

 

[Fishhead]

I think the only thing I would take issue with here is you assume it is the style of play that became outmoded. I think last year's playoffs showed bigger than the other team, more physical than the other team, and fast enough still works. The Kings skaters in 2012-2014 weren't exactly slugs out there.

I think where the problem really lies is that Dean didn't refresh the roster with players that were willing to play the style he wanted. That and the leaders on the roster became complacent after they got their fat retirement contracts. Handing those out was a mistake as well. Ultimately, it was time to recognize the run was over after the 2014-15 season.

Everyone seems to accept the idea that the retirement contracts are part of the price of past success. Well, if you are the GM of a Stanley Cup championship team, don't pay for past success.

I agree, I don’t think it’s was so much that the style of play in the NHL changed, it’s that the players refused to play it. After looking back and digesting everything that happened, it was inevitable and I don’t harbor a lot of blame for the players or management because of all the circumstances.

The worst thing about 2014-2015 is how it went down. It wasn’t so much missing the playoffs, it was missing it with 95 points. It gave no indication of where the team was, the effects of the Voynov fiasco, and so on. If that team makes the playoffs overcoming that stuff, I think they make a serious run. I don’t think the effects of missing with a point total that would get you in any other season should be underestimated.

It was piling on at that point. The room was already dealing with losing a really good defenseman and teammate to a terrible event - one that was at its peak focus in the media community sure to generate hundreds of difficult (and tiring) questions for teammates. Then they watch a team leader, who was absolutely key to their identity and cup wins, fall apart and get demoted to the AHL. Then they get 95 points in a season and miss the playoffs. I don’t care how strong you are mentally, that’s a lot to deal with and would completely sap motivation.

Obviously DL was not completely understanding where the league was headed at that point, but an even bigger miss was not understanding where the team was mentally. I think a lot of the complacency from their successes was magnified by the above events and you can only push that “us against everyone else” agenda so far. When it comes from getting your ass kicked on the ice, it’s motivating. When it comes from a string of bad luck, it’s discouraging. Giving players comfortable money, even though they’ve completely earned it, just throws gasoline on the fire. It was lose-lose at that point.