Around the League 2018-2019 Part 3

[Raccoon Jesus]

That may be, but what else are they going to do? They're locked in forever with Couture and Burns. Kane and Vlasic too. If they were sitting at the bottom of the league, then maybe they would wilt to reality. The Kings broke them in 2014, and since then, they've been to the Final and conference final, along with the playoffs in general in 4 of 5 years. The 6th most playoff games in that time, 10 off the top spot, and almost 20 games ahead of anyone else behind them. They're not going to just tear it all down because they don't have enough. Not that they could, they have a lot of old guys with big contracts.

The Sharks are in win now mode, this is the kind of thing teams do in this mode.

Wait...so a team that signs a 29 year-old defenseman who is one of the most dynamic and talented players in the league is "destroying itself from within"? When did things get so crazy to make statements like this? So because they might not win the cup in the future all hope is lost and the rebuild should begin? The Sharks have set themselves up to compete for the next five years...who cares after that? They've still got young talented players like Kane, Hertl, Meier, and Lebanc and they can replace older guys like Pavelski and Thornton as they retire.

San Jose is doing what an organization with a winning culture SHOULD do. Maximizing their roster and letting them compete every year. Are they "old" in hockey terms? Yes, but so were the Red Wings in the Yzerman/Lidstrom era and they did nothing but excel every year. They might not have won the cup but they were always in the hunt and their culture was that of a winner.

Same with Vegas...no way should an expansion team do what they did. And the traditional logic dictated that McPhee be a seller instead of a buyer at the TDL in their inaugural year. But McPhee decided to build a winning culture and brought in even more talent. Will they be bad in five years? Who cares!! The fans are excited and the organization is brimming with a winning culture.

At the other end of the spectrum are teams like Ottawa and Buffalo. Will they be good in five years? Maybe but that seems like eons away if you go read their boards. The discontent is palpable. There is no winning culture whatsoever in those organizations. The Kings are perilously close to going down that very dark path. The LAST thing Kings fan should be criticizing is what the Sharks are doing. They have a veteran core and they want to make those years count. I applaud them for that.

The Red Wings did win a Cup, though. Multiple Cups, actually.

The San Jose Sharks have been in this do-nothing "win-now" mode for 20 years now.

It's really befuddling to me though that people on this board are cheering on SJS moves when everyone but Meier and Hertl are older than the Kings they spend so much venom on. Like, everyone above seems to be a-ok with their 'make the playoffs and anything can happen' thing up there, but down here, it's all gloom and doom if we're the 8 seed.

You realize we're talking about one of the best players in the league in his prime, right?

Are we?

For all the shit Doughty got for one season, Karlsson has been garbage for two straight, and is now having his third major surgery. He's got an elite brain like Doughty, but his physical gifts are clearly being slowly destroyed visually. That's a risky contract no matter what you think of his raw abilities.

 

[johnjm22]

A defenseman that scores at a 70 point pace isn't garbage.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

A defenseman that scores at a 70 point pace isn't garbage.

Did I really need the disclaimer that I was speaking relatively, given who I was referencing in that sentence?

Besides that, the point was "That's a risky contract no matter what you think of his raw abilities," given the achilles, ankle, and now groin.

Hell one of our guys has one of those and he's getting the Old Yeller treatment, not an 8 year, 12 million a year contract and legions of fans falling all over themselves to make excuses for him.

 

[Fishhead]

EK's injuries are not ideal for a player who relies on his skating a lot. He'll always have that tremendous shot and great vision though.

The Sharks were smart in limiting his defensive zone starts this year, along with Burns. He's essentially an offensive specialist right now until he completely recovers (if he ever does). For sure the best you can get for an offensive D, but 8 years is kind of crazy given his recent struggles. It will be interesting to see if he takes the offer.

 

[kingsholygrail]

I thought the key to being competitive was staying young.

 

[Bandit]

You guys are talking like SJ had already signed Karlsson and I got a chubby for no reason. Thanks a lot.

 

[The Tikkanen]

I thought the key to being competitive was staying young.

Were Boston and St Louis the 2 youngest teams in the league?

 

[KINGS17]

I think they know they won't be able to do away with it, I assume restructuring in some way so that the players know what to expect.

https://www.usnews.com/news/busines...l-players-list-of-concerns-ahead-of-cba-talks

If the NHLPA would stop using the escalator on the salary cap every off season, there wouldn't be as much escrow taken out of their checks in season.

As it stands now the players already under contract are paying for the big raises the UFAs get in the off season. It's going to remain a 50/50 split on the revenue. The owners are not giving that up, so I am not sure what type of re-structuring of escrow the NHLPA might have in mind.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

The Red Wings did win a Cup, though. Multiple Cups, actually.

The San Jose Sharks have been in this do-nothing "win-now" mode for 20 years now.

It's really befuddling to me though that people on this board are cheering on SJS moves when everyone but Meier and Hertl are older than the Kings they spend so much venom on. Like, everyone above seems to be a-ok with their 'make the playoffs and anything can happen' thing up there, but down here, it's all gloom and doom if we're the 8 seed.





Are we?

For all the **** Doughty got for one season, Karlsson has been garbage for two straight, and is now having his third major surgery. He's got an elite brain like Doughty, but his physical gifts are clearly being slowly destroyed visually. That's a risky contract no matter what you think of his raw abilities.

If the Kings were actually making the playoffs and not getting embarrassed in the first round, you’d see a lot of people more willing to ignore the age thing.

 

[kilowatt]

Were Boston and St Louis the 2 youngest teams in the league?

At the beginning of the season, the average age in the NHL was 27.1. The Kings were fourth-oldest, at 28.1. The Wild were the oldest, at 28.9. Boston was 10th-oldest at 27.7. St. Louis was 14th-oldest at 27.3. Edmonton was youngest, at 25.5.

View media item 5571
Source: The Athletic, Sizing up the NHL: 2018-19 NHL teams by age, height and...

 

[tomd]

If the Kings were actually making the playoffs and not getting embarrassed in the first round, you’d see a lot of people more willing to ignore the age thing.

Familiarity breeds contempt and I think that's what a lot of people feel given how long the core has been together. I think there are a number of people here who would actually be upset even if the Kings made the playoffs and got into the 2nd round this coming season. That's how invested they are in the tank.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

If the Kings were actually making the playoffs and not getting embarrassed in the first round, you’d see a lot of people more willing to ignore the age thing.

People shouldn't ignore the age thing. I agree with you. I'm annoyed that people are willing to selectively apply it to pump a rival who hasn't done shit.

Thornton is 39. Pavs will be 35 in a month. Vlasic is 32, and signed until he's nearly 40. Burns is 34, and same. Couture is 30, and only a year younger than Kopitar. We're pretending their window is open while trying to figure out how to dump Anze for scraps and shoot Jeff Carter behind a barn.

 

[kilowatt]

People shouldn't ignore the age thing. I agree with you. I'm annoyed that people are willing to selectively apply it to pump a rival who hasn't done ****.

Thornton is 39. Pavs will be 35 in a month. Vlasic is 32, and signed until he's nearly 40. Burns is 34, and same. Couture is 30, and only a year younger than Kopitar. We're pretending their window is open while trying to figure out how to dump Anze for scraps and shoot Jeff Carter behind a barn.

And we now have their coach. I think there’s a very real chance that guys like Carter and Toffoli bounce back this year. I think we all agree that Kopitar will. If we suck, it won’t be from lack of trying. If you are mailing it in, you won’t be playing.

At least I hope so.

 

[tomd]

People shouldn't ignore the age thing. I agree with you. I'm annoyed that people are willing to selectively apply it to pump a rival who hasn't done ****.

Thornton is 39. Pavs will be 35 in a month. Vlasic is 32, and signed until he's nearly 40. Burns is 34, and same. Couture is 30, and only a year younger than Kopitar. We're pretending their window is open while trying to figure out how to dump Anze for scraps and shoot Jeff Carter behind a barn.

That's what a 71 point season will do to the fan base though and it's understandable even though it is an overreaction. I fear many people won't be any happier if they finish at 85 or 95 points next year though unless their average age plummets to 22.

 

[KINGS17]

People shouldn't ignore the age thing. I agree with you. I'm annoyed that people are willing to selectively apply it to pump a rival who hasn't done ****.

Thornton is 39. Pavs will be 35 in a month. Vlasic is 32, and signed until he's nearly 40. Burns is 34, and same. Couture is 30, and only a year younger than Kopitar. We're pretending their window is open while trying to figure out how to dump Anze for scraps and shoot Jeff Carter behind a barn.

San Jose is an old hockey team with a reverse mortgage on their future. They are about to run out of the equity they borrowed from future drafts, and it's not going to be pretty for them when that happens.

 

[Fishhead]

That's what a 71 point season will do to the fan base though and it's understandable even though it is an overreaction. I fear many people won't be any happier if they finish at 85 or 95 points next year though unless their average age plummets to 22.

85 would be terrible. I'd be fine with 95 if they made the playoffs. 95 and missing would be worst case.

It doesn't have anything to do with average age, really. It has more to do with players trending down, playing uninspired, and getting paid a lot. Any benefit of the doubt this group had went out the window quite a while ago. There is a mountain of data that illustrates how players drop off in their 30's. Combine all those things and of course you'll have a bleak outlook.

 

[KingsFan7824]

People shouldn't ignore the age thing. I agree with you. I'm annoyed that people are willing to selectively apply it to pump a rival who hasn't done ****.

Thornton is 39. Pavs will be 35 in a month. Vlasic is 32, and signed until he's nearly 40. Burns is 34, and same. Couture is 30, and only a year younger than Kopitar. We're pretending their window is open while trying to figure out how to dump Anze for scraps and shoot Jeff Carter behind a barn.

At some point time will run out, but we also acted like the Sharks were broken after 2014. They weren't, but the Kings were. It's not about pumping up the Sharks, but they are still relevant though.

The Red Wings did win a Cup, though. Multiple Cups, actually.

The San Jose Sharks have been in this do-nothing "win-now" mode for 20 years now.

It's really befuddling to me though that people on this board are cheering on SJS moves when everyone but Meier and Hertl are older than the Kings they spend so much venom on. Like, everyone above seems to be a-ok with their 'make the playoffs and anything can happen' thing up there, but down here, it's all gloom and doom if we're the 8 seed.

The Kings have played in 8 playoff games, have 1 playoff win, and 0 playoff wins at home, since 2014. In that same time, the Sharks have played 60 playoff games, 32 of them wins, and have been to the Final and conference final. If the Kings had half of that success, since 2014, Kopitar would be fine as a 31 year old $10m center. Nobody can or should take away what the Kings did, which was actually win the whole thing, but the Sharks are relevant today, the Kings are not. They're two different teams in 2019. The Kings should be going for it with so many old guys, but they can't. They would if they could. I wish they could. It's boring watching old guys who have actually won, do even less than the Sharks old guys, who can't get the job done.

 

[LAKings88]

The Kings have been hit by major injuries each year, lost key role players, went through three coaches & their assistants, traded needed first rounders on rentals, and have a new gm that inherited a tough spot. To top it off, players got fat contracts and started settling down with families. Not an excuse but the drive has changed.

I still believe in the core but they need buy in from everyone. You don’t win in hockey unless you all pull in the same direction. Pure youth and speed doesn’t win either. Need to combine it all with a bit of truculence thrown in.

 

[tomd]

85 would be terrible. I'd be fine with 95 if they made the playoffs. 95 and missing would be worst case.

It doesn't have anything to do with average age, really. It has more to do with players trending down, playing uninspired, and getting paid a lot. Any benefit of the doubt this group had went out the window quite a while ago. There is a mountain of data that illustrates how players drop off in their 30's. Combine all those things and of course you'll have a bleak outlook.

85 points would only be terrible on draft day but it would be a successful season otherwise. It would mean that many of the players had better years. It would mean that the team can add some youth but also some veterans to try to get to 95 points in 20-21. It would mean the team is actually interesting to watch again. It would mean the players bought into TM's system. It would mean there is some reason to be optimistic.

 

[LAKings88]

You can argue that Doughty’s contract was bad but it was going rate.

Doughty is unbelievable in all around aspects.

Karlsson is a great offensive talent.

It really is like Bourque and Coffey.

I think that Karlsson contract is terribly risky given the injuries and age. Couldn’t see them letting him walk tho.

GMs just don’t learn. It’s an ELC league. Not shrewd but an expected signing.

Will say SJ seems to have a solid locker room.

 

[kovacro]

Looks like Karlsson is going to re-sign with SJ, per Bobby Mac.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

And at Drew cap %, which is a smart, interesting way to structure the contract. "yeah, I'm as good as that guy."

SJS taking a big gamble on health and trajectory.

 

[tomd]

Health aside, this was a good move by SJ. The recently completed play-offs showed that veteran players are still the ones who drive playoff success. Younger teams did not do particularly well in the playoffs this year. Older teams did. Will they regret it in 5 years? Maybe. But that is a lifetime in pro sports and I like that Wilson is willing to keep their core together and go for it. What is his alternative...let the core whither and die?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

San Jose has sustained success by way of being a playoff team for so long thanks in part to drafting well. Unlike the Kings, they’re not just an old team, they have scoring depth throughout their lineup, and their older players are actually productive.

Of course, now that will be tested with new contracts due for Meier and Labanc, and they have to lock up Pavelski, and risk losing Donskoi.

 

[KINGS17]

The Red Wings did win a Cup, though. Multiple Cups, actually.

The San Jose Sharks have been in this do-nothing "win-now" mode for 20 years now.

It's really befuddling to me though that people on this board are cheering on SJS moves when everyone but Meier and Hertl are older than the Kings they spend so much venom on. Like, everyone above seems to be a-ok with their 'make the playoffs and anything can happen' thing up there, but down here, it's all gloom and doom if we're the 8 seed.





Are we?

For all the **** Doughty got for one season, Karlsson has been garbage for two straight, and is now having his third major surgery. He's got an elite brain like Doughty, but his physical gifts are clearly being slowly destroyed visually. That's a risky contract no matter what you think of his raw abilities.

Completely agree with this post. The Red Wings won in an era where they could just go out in free agency during the off season and buy second and third liners for their team that were first and second liners on the other teams. Examples: Hull and Robitaille.

If they still looked like they were going to come up a bit short, well go out and trade a prospect for someone like Schneider. Back in those days when two teams like the Detroit and Colorado were willing to spend almost anything watching the NHL regular season and playoffs was about as exciting as today's NBA and MLB.

I don't think San Jose wins a cup with this roster, and because of that I think they should move on from Karlsson. Wilson on the other hand probably sees the sand in his hourglass running out, so he will be selfish and go for it with what I would judge to be around a 10% probability of success.