Batis
Registered User
Not that it matters all that much considering that Makarovs voting record already is far superior to Stastnys but Makarov was also 6th in the 1982 Izvestia voting.
Are two Czechs better than any Soviet player ever?
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Not that it matters all that much considering that Makarovs voting record already is far superior to Stastnys but Makarov was also 6th in the 1982 Izvestia voting.
Theokritos
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Jagr was born february 72 so he was 35/36 during the 2007/2008 season. So your 1 year difference is 2 years 4 months.
Jagr also finished:
2012/2013 (40-41) 50th,
2013/2014 (41-42) 27th,
2014/2015 (42-43) 106th,
2015/2016 (43-44) 22nd,
2016/2017 (44-45) 122nd
I wouldn't say his 2007/2008 season was an age related slump. Rangers made several dumb signings and Jagr ended up playing with overpaid garbage players with a completely opposite style of play.
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Theokritos
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True. At age 20, Peter Šťastný was still a little short of being considered a top 10 player in Czechoslovakia. At age 23/24, he was voted Player of the Year. Everything else being equal, a player coming over at 20 will usually take a bit longer to develop.
He had just entered his prime and was still young enough to fully adapt. One could probably say he was in the perfect age to come over. As pointed out by Canadiens1958, he also had one of his regular linemates from Czechoslovakia with him the moment he stepped on NHL ice and from the second season on he had both his familiar linemates of the past few years with him. It's hard to imagine more favourable circumstances for him.
How their careers panned out is one thing, what calibre of players the proved to be in the NHL is another. Mogilny didn't have Šťastný's consistency, just like Bure didn't have Šťastný's health and longevity, but at his best Mogilny was still was a top 10 scorer and one of the most successful goal getters in the league. This young generation of Soviet players had the time to adapt and did so successfully, regardless of whether their overall careers went as smoothly as that of Peter Šťastný or that of Jaromír Jágr and Teemu Selänne.
Let's see. Which forwards who came to the NHL from the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia between the mid-1970s and early 1990s had the most impact? Probably these players:
Jaromír Jágr – 18-19 in his first NHL season. At his best #1 scorer in the league. Multiple Art Ross trophies.
Aleksandr Mogilny – 20-21 in his first NHL season. At his best #7 scorer in the league. Best goal scorer in 1993.
Pavel Bure – 20 in his first NHL season. At his best #2 scorer in the league. Best goal scorer multiple times.
Sergey Fyodorov – 20-21 in his first NHL season. At his best #2 in league scoring while being Selke-calibre defensively. Hart winner.
Žigmund Pálffy – 21-22 in his first season in NA. At his best #9 in league scoring.
Peter Šťastný – 24 in his first NHL season. At his best #2 in league scoring. One of the best NHL scorers of the 1980s.
For comparison, here are the most prominent players from the same two countries whose NHL impact was limited or at least below exceptations:
Igor Larionov – 28-29 in his first NHL season. At his best #42 in league scoring as a good two-way center.
Václav Nedomanský – 30 in his first season in NA. Never top 10 in WHA scoring.
Milan Nový – 31 in his first (and last) NHL season. #130 in league scoring.
Sergey Makarov – 31 in his first NHL season. At his best #27 in league scoring.
Ivan Hlinka – 31-32 in his first NHL season. At his best #81 in league scoring.
Players from the second group impressed fans and teammates with their skill level, but didn't have the scoring impact the younger group had. You don't see a pattern there?
Again, I'm not saying 20 and 24 is the same. While still being young, Šťastný already had a few years of experience in international hockey under his belt. That's certainly one of the main reasons he was able to hit the ground running in the NHL while players who were even younger like Bure or Jágr took a little more time to improve over the course of their first two (or so) seasons.
You'd not only have to argue Šťastný was being overlooked internationally in Europe (I'd sure like to hear your argument why that was, BTW). You'd also have to argue he was being overlooked in his own home country, by the very same people who put him on their national team and who voted him Player of the Year in 1980. Šťastný was ranked outside of the top 10 in Czechoslovakia in four years out of five. Makarov was ranked among the top 10 in the Soviet Union with its deeper talent pool five years out of five and among the top 5 four years out of five.
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Namba 17
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You're right here, my mistake.
Probably. We don't know. We'll also never know what would have been if Jagr stayed in the NHL. We know, though, that his stats began to decline significantly after he turned 34.
Batis
Registered User
Additionally regarding Makarovs Izvestia golden stick voting record over his entire prime it is very impressive that he finished top 4 in the voting 10 times and top 6 every year between 78/79 and 88/89 which is 11 times. Both of them are records with the closest competitors for most top 4 and top 6 finishes being Fetisov with 5 times in the top 4 and 6 times in the top 6 and Tretiak with 4 times in the top 4 and 6 times in the top 6. Tretiak would definitely have had a number of additional high finishes had the award been around before 78/79 though and Fetisov probably one more pretty high finish as well in 77/78.
So it is fair to say that Makarovs overall Izvestia voting record is very impressive and that Stastny would have had a hard time even trying to come close to this voting record had he stayed in Europe considering that he had not managed more than one top 8 finish when he was about to turn 24. In fact if Stastny would have stayed in Europe I think that it would be considered laughable to suggest that Stastny was Makarovs equal let alone saying that he may have been better. The only reason we are even having this debate is that Stastny got to play much of his prime in North America.
So it is fair to say that Makarovs overall Izvestia voting record is very impressive and that Stastny would have had a hard time even trying to come close to this voting record had he stayed in Europe considering that he had not managed more than one top 8 finish when he was about to turn 24. In fact if Stastny would have stayed in Europe I think that it would be considered laughable to suggest that Stastny was Makarovs equal let alone saying that he may have been better. The only reason we are even having this debate is that Stastny got to play much of his prime in North America.
Batis
Registered User
Once again not that it changes anything regarding the point you are making but Bure actually peaked at 2nd in points in 99/00. And Makarov peaked at tied for 27th in points in 90/91. Or 29th if we use goals as tiebreaker.
Theokritos
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Which pattern did you show, that age 18-20 is comparable to age 24? If Makarov came over at age 26 and still only averaged a point per game over the next 5 years. You would claim 26 is old and 24 is a fresh young chicken. Favourable circumstances? He finished 6th, 2nd and third in scoring in the best league in the world in his first 3 season there. Maybe he is just the better player, does it take pride and ego to admit that is a possiblity?
You want to go ahead and name all of the players who had far superior voting records in Europe. Go list them all, then tell me how they would fare in the nhl during the 1980's. All those guys that were far superior in voting, are they going to dominate in the nhl and finish top 10 in scoring year after year. The voting in Europe doesn't mean anything.
Even if Makarov came over at age 24, which would be the 1982-83 season. Does he really end up having a career in the nhl that eclipses Stastny's? I doubt it. Tell me how you see Makarov doing in the nhl with a career from age.
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Theokritos
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Well, I can't force you to see what I see. Maybe my eyes betray me, maybe your eyes betray you. The argument has been provided and everyone will have to decide for himself whether he finds it plausible or not.
Favourable circumstances for him to succeed in the NHL in comparison to the circumstances other Eastern European players faced:
You don't think it would have been very favourable for Makarov if he e.g. played together with Igor Larionov and another Russian winger in the NHL? Instead of playing with Gary Roberts etc?
I have no problem admitting it is a possibility that Šťastný was a better player than Makarov. In my opinion the evidence speaks against it, but of course the evidence is limited so that the possibility can not be ruled out. See how easy that was for me? Apparently much easier than it is for you to admit that it's a possibility Makarov was a better player than Šťastný and that perhaps "the voting in Europe" does not mean nothing just because.
I don't know whether he "really" ends up having a better career than Šťastný. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I'm inclined to believe he was the better player out of the two, that's what I'm saying.
I would have no problem admitting that it's a possibility Makarov could be better than Stastny, I just don't think there is any big gap between them and I doubt Makarov ends up with a better nhl career if he came over at age 24 the same way Stastny did.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Not what happened. Stastnys defected as a family. Makarov did not.
What is the point of trying to find the perfect situation for Makarov? Every player is evaluated based on what actually happened.
Theokritos
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Thanks for the news.
I was answering a simple question:
Batis
Registered User
Just for fun I also did a head to head comparison of when Makarov and Stastny faced each other in major international tournaments and NHL vs Soviet competition. In this case it means 2 games at the 1978 WHC, 2 games at the 1979 WHC, 2 games at the 1984 Canada Cup, 1 game during the 85/86 Super Series and 1 game during the 88/89 Super Series.
Makarov: 8 gp, 8 g, 1 a, 9 pts
Stastny: 8 gp, 1 g, 5 a, 6 pts
Now I obviously don't view these numbers as one of the major reasons for ranking Makarov ahead of Stastny but rather as an interesting footnote.
I seem to recall Jagr having a wrist injury after his dominant 2005-06 season, hence the drop from 54 to 30 goals.
Batis
Registered User
I think that it was a shoulder injury sustained in the 2006 playoffs which required surgery in the offseason.
Nathaniel
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Gerulaitis
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No they aren't.Around here Jagr and Hasek are seen as the best non-Canadians ever in ice hockey.
Having memories of part of the 1970's, I question whether Hasek was better than Tretiak.
And the 10-year peaks of Makarov and Fetisov seem equivalent of that of Jagr.
What do you guys think?
Tretiak is better than Hasek. Ironically, Tretiak trained Hasek in Chicago who went on winning multiple Vezinas afterwards.
And Hasek didn't do too well against the Soviets during his early career.
Fetisov who was basically the Soviet Bobby Orr, had more impact on world's hockey than Jagr.
But Jagr is arguably is better than most (if not all) Soviet forwards, although Kharlamov and Makarov can be in this discussion.
... Jagr Vs Ovechkin would be a tough comparison, but I'd say Ovechkin has an edge here because of his incredible goal-scoring talent (but Ovechkin hasn't played for team USSR)
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Nathaniel
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Makarov went blow for blow with lemieux and Gretzky. The KLM was all over the canadiens. Only canadiens on their level were 66 n 99. That is the painful truth at the time
Michael Farkas
Grace Personified
Fetisov was more like a Soviet Doug Harvey.
Also, this thread is many years old.
Also, this thread is many years old.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Ya.
Stylistically, I see Jan Suchy in more of the Orr role. Specifically in the end to end rush role while having the offense flow through him.
Jagr had a much more sustained period at a best player level along with much better playoff stats through his career and at his peak. Even he will go down as having arguably better longevity but Ovechkin has that argument for himself now of course breaking the goals record.
Michael Farkas
Grace Personified
On a very high-level look...with Jagr you have elite goal scoring and elite playmaking. Excellent on the rush and on the cycle.
Ovechkin is super elite goal scoring and a truculence factor.
I'd want Jagr because I like more versatility.
Ovechkin is super elite goal scoring and a truculence factor.
I'd want Jagr because I like more versatility.
Gerulaitis
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