Are two Czechs better than any Soviet player ever?

[Howie Hodge]

Surprised at the lack of Tretiak discussion.

Tretiak made his biggest impression on me, New Years Eve, 1975, in a game in Montreal vs The Canadians. Faced 38 shots, many good ones, in a 3 - 3 tie.

Red Army had 13 shots. It was not as one sided as the shots indicated. Montreal took their shots when the opportunity presented itself. Red Army worked and cycled the puck until they saw a good scoring opportunity, then shot.

Montreal went up 2 - 0 and 3 - 1 in the game.

I thought Tretiak was the difference.

Would have loved to have seen him play in The NHL.

Would have loved to see a lot of The Soviet Stars play in The NHL in their prime.; though the size of some could have proved detrimental long term.

 

[Sentinel]

Strikes against Makarov:

- In pretty much every international competition he was involved in, he played with the same players he played all-year round, which is an important factor -- having chemistry and familiarity with your linemates see.
- Being a product from the U.S.S.R. system, he was probably in better shape than most NHLers when he came over, which would give him an advantage over his peers already.

Quite the opposite, actually. Soviet players were conditioned to produce for a decade and then were completely spent. By 31 almost all Soviet careers were over. It's a testament to Makarov's genius that he held off for as long as he did. Fetisov was in the same boat, but he lucked out with Detroit.

Jagr was dominant, no question, especially offensively. But Makarov was far, far superior defensively, in addition to leading his league (including his linemates) in points for nine straight years. Imagine better, more consistent, more motivated Fedorov. That's Makarov for you.

 

[blogofmike]

I don't know why people were talking about old Peter Stastny. Old Jagr was pretty good and more germane to the OP.

If a 20-ish Jaromir Jagr was the RW on the Green Unit, I think he wins a ton of scoring titles too. Injuries or whatever might make it less than 9, but he'd have quite a few.

Conversely, could Makarov, who had limited success without Larionov et al, have won an Art Ross with the 99 or 2000 Pens? Heck, if they keep him in Chelyabinsk and off the Red Army, how many scoring titles does Makarov win?

 

[Theokritos]

The fact is Hasek and Jagr peaked higher than any russian, nationalism is the reason people here are going to exaggerate the peaks of Fetisov and Makarov.

For the record: Most of the posters who have argued in favour of Makarov in this thread aren't even Russian. Hobnobs and Batis are Swedes, TheDevilMadeMe is American, etc.

Considering that when Makarov and Stastny played on the same continent as each other Makarov was a better player than Stastny both before and after the 80/81-88/89 time frame I don't see why it is so hard to believe that he would have been superior during that time frame as well.

Makarov was also two years older. Compare them at the same age and Stastny wins.

Good idea. Batis has already compared their European careers up until 1980 when Šťastný left for the NHL. But to make the comparison fairer, I'll do the same for both players' careers up to their 24th birthday (Šťastný left Czechoslovakia just one months before turning 24).

Peter Šťastný before turning 24:
Ranked among Czechoslovak players: 1st, 6th, 12th, 12th, 15th.
Ranked among European players: 8th.
World Championship awards: none.

With that record under his belt, Šťastný came to the NHL and immediately proved to be one of the top scorers in the league (#6 in his rookie season, top 3 in the following seasons).

Sergey Makarov before turning 24:
Ranked among Soviet players: 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 9th.
Ranked among European players: 1st, 4th, 4t, 6th.
World Championship awards: Best Forward 1979, All-star team 1979 and 1981 and 1982.

Note that in Šťastný's best season when he was voted Player of the Year in Czechoslovakia he was also voted 8th among European players overall. In the very same season (1979-1980), Makarov was voted Player of the Year in the USSR and was also voted 1st among all European players. That should give you a perspective on what being voted #1 in Czechoslovakia and #1 in the USSR are roughly worth when you compare them.

It's obvious that Makarov's pre-24 record is much more impressive than Šťastný's pre-24 record. If the latter player still turned out to be a top-6 scorer in the NHL right away and a top-3 scorer after a season of adjustment, what do we realistically have to assume about the former, clearly superior player?

Jagr was dominant, no question, especially offensively. But Makarov was far, far superior defensively, in addition to leading his league (including his linemates) in points for nine straight years. Imagine better, more consistent, more motivated Fedorov. That's Makarov for you.

Now that's hyperbole. Even if Makarov was "far superior defensively" to Jágr and even if it's possible he would have succeeded at center too if he played there, there's still a big difference between being a level above Jágr defensively and being a Selke-calibre forward like Fedorov.

 

[Batis]

Now that's hyperbole. Even if Makarov was "far superior defensively" to Jágr and even if it's possible he would have succeeded at center too if he played there, there's still a big difference between being a level above Jágr defensively and being a Selke-calibre forward like Fedorov.

Yes even if I think that it is possible that Makarov during his prime years may have been an even better penalty killer than Fedorov was during his or at least on a similar level he definitely falls far short of Fedorov when it comes to their overall defensive games. Makarov was in my opinion an above average defensive player at equal strenght as well with his combination of great forechecking and backchecking but Fedorov was far, far superior defensively at even strenght.

 

[Theokritos]

Makarov was in my opinion an above average defensive player at equal strenght as well with his combination of great forechecking and backchecking

That's interesting, especially in light of some comments from 1989-1990:

Robert Fachet (Washington Post), January 1990:
"Coach Terry Crisp has been upset with Makarov's defensive play... Makarov rarely enters his own zone, which was fine in the Soviet Union but creates problems in the NHL."​

Pat Quinn, January 1990:
"Larionov is having an easier time because a center's responsibility is similar to what is expected of centers in European or Soviet hockey. A winger's job is quite a bit different -- in method of attack and defensive zone coverage."​

 

[Sentinel]

I didn't mean it in a "Makarov is on Fedorov's level defensively" sense. Even if, defensively speaking, he is much closer to Fedorov than to Jagr. But as a completely package, he was better than Fedorov and far far more consistent.

 

[Batis]

I don't know why people were talking about old Peter Stastny. Old Jagr was pretty good and more germane to the OP.

If a 20-ish Jaromir Jagr was the RW on the Green Unit, I think he wins a ton of scoring titles too. Injuries or whatever might make it less than 9, but he'd have quite a few.

Conversely, could Makarov, who had limited success without Larionov et al, have won an Art Ross with the 99 or 2000 Pens? Heck, if they keep him in Chelyabinsk and off the Red Army, how many scoring titles does Makarov win?

Interesting question. Considering that Balderis managed to win 2 scoring titles playing for Dinamo Riga and Makarov was a clearly more talented player than Balderis I think that it is likely that Makarov would have been one of the main favourites for the scoring title most years during the 80's even playing for Traktor.

And if you let him play with a stronger team like Spartak or Dynamo Moscow I think that he still is the main favourite for the scoring title most years during the 80's. In Spartak he could have taken Shalimovs spot on the Kapustin-Shepelev-Shalimov line and played with Kapustin and Shepelev for much of the 80's. Or perhaps he would have played with someone like Tyumenev who Makarov had great chemistry with during the 85/86 Super Series or Kozhevnikov who was one of the very best offensive players in the Soviet League during the first half of the 80's and still good during the rest of the decade as well.

And Dynamo also had plenty of great forwards. First Maltsev, Prirodin and the Golikov brothers and later on the Yashin-Semenov-Svetlov line. So Makarov could have had plenty of offensive support there as well.

 

[Batis]

That's interesting, especially in light of some comments from 1989-1990:

Robert Fachet (Washington Post), January 1990:
"Coach Terry Crisp has been upset with Makarov's defensive play... Makarov rarely enters his own zone, which was fine in the Soviet Union but creates problems in the NHL."​

Pat Quinn, January 1990:
"Larionov is having an easier time because a center's responsibility is similar to what is expected of centers in European or Soviet hockey. A winger's job is quite a bit different -- in method of attack and defensive zone coverage."​

I should have included that Makarov was an above average defensive player at even strenght during most of his prime years in my opinion. Watching him backcheck and forecheck in the 1990 or 1991 WHC compared to in the tournaments in the early-mid 80's you would not think that it is the same player in those situations. I don't know if it was the loss of his superior skating or simply a lack of effort or a combination of both but the difference is really like night and day. So I can't say that the comments from Crisp really surprises me that much with this in mind. (Except for the part about that it was fine to not enter your own zone in the Soviet Union)

And regarding Makarovs forechecking and backchecking ability during his prime we have this quote from Viktor Kuzkin to support it.

"Makarov was a very mobile player. He was everywhere, went up and down, and was really good at helping his defensmen. That's why Viktor Vasilyevich Tikhonov often had him kill penalties." (Victor Kuzkin, Soviet defenseman)

 

[Hobnobs]

That's interesting, especially in light of some comments from 1989-1990:

Robert Fachet (Washington Post), January 1990:
"Coach Terry Crisp has been upset with Makarov's defensive play... Makarov rarely enters his own zone, which was fine in the Soviet Union but creates problems in the NHL."​

Pat Quinn, January 1990:
"Larionov is having an easier time because a center's responsibility is similar to what is expected of centers in European or Soviet hockey. A winger's job is quite a bit different -- in method of attack and defensive zone coverage."​

The Quinn quote is interesting. The Crisp quote is not since Crisp took every chance he could to slam Makarov. They simply didnt get along at all.

Makarov had legendary bouts with Crisp like

Crisp laughed as Fletcher told the story; confirmed that it happened; and then told one of his own - about a time when they were playing Edmonton and had them on the run. So John Muckler, the coach, called a time out and Makarov turned to Crisp, nodded and said: “Yes, good timeout. Good move.” Then he pointed to Muckler and said: “He good coach. You? No.”

And just for fun

Usually, it was. In fact, As Roberts approached 50 goals for the first time, largely because of Makarov’s play-making, the Russian asked him - a la Rumpelstilskin - what would he do for him if he helped him get to that plateau? Roberts promised to name his next born child after Makarov. When Roberts got there, and was asked about it, the answer was: “Guess we’re not going to have any more kids.”

 

[blogofmike]

Interesting question. Considering that Balderis managed to win 2 scoring titles playing for Dinamo Riga and Makarov was a clearly more talented player than Balderis I think that it is likely that Makarov would have been one of the main favourites for the scoring title most years during the 80's even playing for Traktor.

And if you let him play with a stronger team like Spartak or Dynamo Moscow I think that he still is the main favourite for the scoring title most years during the 80's. In Spartak he could have taken Shalimovs spot on the Kapustin-Shepelev-Shalimov line and played with Kapustin and Shepelev for much of the 80's. Or perhaps he would have played with someone like Tyumenev who Makarov had great chemistry with during the 85/86 Super Series or Kozhevnikov who was one of the very best offensive players in the Soviet League during the first half of the 80's and still good during the rest of the decade as well.

And Dynamo also had plenty of great forwards. First Maltsev, Prirodin and the Golikov brothers and later on the Yashin-Semenov-Svetlov line. So Makarov could have had plenty of offensive support there as well.

Makarov > Balderis? Sure, but not by enough that he'd beat him every year. Balderis won in 1983 in points and his PPG was comfortably above Makarov too.

But the reason for Traktor is that Jagr could skate regularly with Kip Miller and be a healthy Art Ross winner. Or play three quarters of the season and win an Art Ross. If you have to pick a player to win a scoring title who isn't one of the Big 4, Jaromir Jagr is (in my opinion) the best bet.

 

[canucks4ever]

For the record: Most of the posters who have argued in favour of Makarov in this thread aren't even Russian. Hobnobs and Batis are Swedes, TheDevilMadeMe is American, etc.





Good idea. Batis has already compared their European careers up until 1980 when Šťastný left for the NHL. But to make the comparison fairer, I'll do the same for both players' careers up to their 24th birthday (Šťastný left Czechoslovakia just one months before turning 24).

Peter Šťastný before turning 24:
Ranked among Czechoslovak players: 1st, 6th, 12th, 12th, 15th.
Ranked among European players: 8th.
World Championship awards: none.

With that record under his belt, Šťastný came to the NHL and immediately proved to be one of the top scorers in the league (#6 in his rookie season, top 3 in the following seasons).

Sergey Makarov before turning 24:
Ranked among Soviet players: 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 9th.
Ranked among European players: 1st, 4th, 4th.
World Championship awards: Best Forward 1979, All-star team 1979 and 1981 and 1982.

Note that in Šťastný's best season when he was voted Player of the Year in Czechoslovakia he was also voted 8th among European players overall. In the very same season (1979-1980), Makarov was voted Player of the Year in the USSR and was also voted 1st among all European players. That should give you a perspective on what being voted #1 in Czechoslovakia and #1 in the USSR are roughly worth when you compare them.

It's obvious that Makarov's pre-24 record is much more impressive than Šťastný's pre-24 record. If the latter player still turned out to be a top-6 scorer in the NHL right away and a top-3 scorer after a season of adjustment, what do we realistically have to assume about the former, clearly superior player?



Now that's hyperbole. Even if Makarov was "far superior defensively" to Jágr and even if it's possible he would have succeeded at center too if he played there, there's still a big difference between being a level above Jágr defensively and being a Selke-calibre forward like Fedorov.

Maybe it means Stasny was being overlooked in his European Career. If you combine both of their performances in the 1978 world championships, 1979 world championships and 1980 Olympics. Their stats look like this.

Peter Stastny: 30 points in 24 games
Sergei Makarov: 28 points in 25 games

 

[Sentinel]

Again, I give Jagr offensive edge over Makarov. But as far as overall completeness level, it's Makarov over Jagr. In both prime and high-pressure situations, which is where I put a lot of emphasis.

 

[Hobnobs]

Maybe it means Stasny was being overlooked in his European Career. If you combine both of their performances in the 1978 world championships, 1979 world championships and 1980 Olympics. Their stats look like this.

Peter Stastny: 30 points in 24 games
Sergei Makarov: 28 points in 25 games

And you think this gives an edge to Stastny? In the 1980 olympics he got to pad his stats vs 3 horrible teams in his group while Soviet only had two truly horrible teams + a pretty strong (relatively) poland. Stastny also got to play the Canadian losers who simply didnt even try to play well vs the czechs.

Btw Stastnys stats vs the top 2 teams in their group that year was 2 games and one assist. Out performed by Novy and Pouzar so take that ignorant garbage that "Stastny was underrated in europe" somewhere else. [Mod]

Makarovs stats vs the top teams that year was 4 points in 4 games.

 

[Killion]

Btw Stastnys stats vs the top 2 teams in their group that year was 2 games and one assist. Out performed by Novy and Pouzar so take that ignorant garbage that "Stastny was underrated in europe" somewhere else.

..... easy easy there Hobsters. Holy Moly. Gonna blow a gasket.....
..... and @ushvinder... I love Stastny but seriously.

 

[canucks4ever]

And you think this gives an edge to Stastny? In the 1980 olympics he got to pad his stats vs 3 horrible teams in his group while Soviet only had two truly horrible teams + a pretty strong (relatively) poland. Stastny also got to play the Canadian losers who simply didnt even try to play well vs the czechs.

Btw Stastnys stats vs the top 2 teams in their group that year was 2 games and one assist. Out performed by Novy and Pouzar so take that ignorant garbage that "Stastny was underrated in europe" somewhere else. It might have worked on another board where people who dont know anything about international hockey resides but not here pal.

Makarovs stats vs the top teams that year was 4 points in 4 games.

Makarov was getting padded stats his entire international career by playing on cska/red army and beating up on teams with far weaker depth.

 

[Hobnobs]

Makarov was getting padded stats his entire international career by playing on cska/red army and beating up on teams with far weaker depth.

[Mod]

Yea, Makarov scored 5 points vs Canada in 1987 Canada Cup finals. Yes, that weak Canada that lacked depth. Makarov padded his stats against them.

 

[canucks4ever]

Yea, Makarov scored 5 points vs Canada in 1987 Canada Cup finals. Yes, that weak Canada that lacked depth. Makarov padded his stats against them.

What the heck does that have to do with the fact that he played the vast majority of his international career on a powerhouse and beat up weaker teams as a result of it?

 

[Hobnobs]

What the heck does that have to do with the fact that he played the vast majority of his international career on a powerhouse and beat up weaker teams as a result of it?

That he didnt need to? Also soviets were pretty famous for not padding their stars stats but rolling all their fives ~equally. Do you even know anyhting about this matter?

 

[canucks4ever]

That he didnt need to? Also soviets were pretty famous for not padding their stars stats but rolling all their fives ~equally. Do you even know anyhting about this matter?

This doesn't change the fact that he was on a powerhouse and beating up far weaker teams.

 

[Batis]

Makarov > Balderis? Sure, but not by enough that he'd beat him every year. Balderis won in 1983 in points and his PPG was comfortably above Makarov too.

But the reason for Traktor is that Jagr could skate regularly with Kip Miller and be a healthy Art Ross winner. Or play three quarters of the season and win an Art Ross. If you have to pick a player to win a scoring title who isn't one of the Big 4, Jaromir Jagr is (in my opinion) the best bet.

Which is why I said that I think that Makarov would have been one of the main favourites for the scoring title most of the seasons of the 80's even if playing for Traktor. However regarding the 1983 season it should be noted that Makarov had a dip in his PPG that season perhaps due to playing half-injured for some part of the season after the shoulder injury that kept him out for a part of that season.

Here is an earlier post that I have made regarding this.

Hall of Fame debate: Sergei Makarov

Larionov on Makarov…
“His speed, his skill and his hockey sense. His eagerness to be the best every single shift, every single game, every single tournament, his goal was to the best every time he was on the ice. It didn’t matter if it was the Soviet league, or world championships, or Canada Cup, or Olympics, he was always the guy that was hungry to score goals and to be successful and at the end of the day, to be the guy at the top spot”

I think that Larionov does a great job at giving an explanation for Makarovs consistency as a player. It is in my opinion perhaps Makarovs most impressive quality. His ability to remain the top scorer season after season in the Soviet League and produce at a very high level tournament after tournament internationally. Don’t get me wrong Makarov clearly started to decline after his peak in the early/mid 80´s but even when he was declining he still remained a very consistent scorer. Here is Makarovs points per game average season by season from his first full season in the Soviet League to his last relatively full season in the NHL.

77/78: 0.86 (Age 19, Soviet League)
78/79: 0.89 (Age 20, Soviet League)
79/80: 1.55 (Age 21, Soviet League)
80/81: 1.61 (Age 22, Soviet League)
81/82: 1.63 (Age 23, Soviet League)
82/83: 1.40 (Age 24, Soviet League)
83/84: 1.66 (Age 25, Soviet League)
84/85: 1.63 (Age 26, Soviet League)
85/86: 1.55 (Age 27, Soviet League)
86/87: 1.33 (Age 28, Soviet League)
87/88: 1.33 (Age 29, Soviet League)
88/89: 1.23 (Age 30, Soviet League)
89/90: 1.08 (Age 31, NHL)
90/91: 1.01 (Age 32, NHL)
91/92: 1.03 (Age 33, NHL)
92/93: 0.80 (Age 34, NHL)
93/94: 0.85 (Age 35, NHL)
94/95: 0.56 (Age 36, NHL)

To me this is the numbers of a very consistent scorer who managed to remain consistent even when declining. After his jump in scoring between the 78/79 season and the 79/80 season his numbers was slowly and steadily improving up until his statistical peak season in 83/84 (with one exception in the 82/83 season where he got a shoulder injury and his points per game average dropped abit possibly due to him being somewhat affected by the injury even in some of the games that he did play in). After his statistical peak in 83/84 Makarovs domestic numbers started to slowly decline season by season instead.....

And regarding Jagr vs Makarov I have already stated in this thread that I rank Jagr ahead of Makarov. But not with more than a small margin.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This doesn't change the fact that he was on a powerhouse and beating up far weaker teams.

However, it does debunk your argument that Stastny was comparable to Makarov in 1980 based off a simple reading of their end of tournament statistics.

 

[canucks4ever]

However, it does debunk your argument that Stastny was comparable to Makarov in 1980 based off a simple reading of their end of tournament statistics.

No it doesn't, to suggest this gives Makarov a massive edge is laughable. Its a fact, over the 3 tournaments from 1978-1980, Stastny outproduced him.

 

[Batis]

No it doesn't, to suggest this gives Makarov a massive edge is laughable. Its a fact, over the 3 tournaments from 1978-1980, Stastny outproduced him.

Yes that is a fact just like it is a fact that Makarov clearly was considered the superior player during this time frame by the people who actually followed European hockey and these tournaments at the time.

A statistical edge over 3 international tournaments < The general consensus in Europe that Makarov was the superior player overall during this timeframe.

And it is quite interesting that with all your talk about how Makarov benefited from playing on the stacked Soviet team you fail to take into account that Makarov actually was disadvantaged statistically in his first international tournament at age 19 (1978 WHC) due to playing behind 3 suberb lines on that stacked team (Kharlamov-Petrov-Mikhailov, Kapustin-Zhluktov-Balderis and Golikov-Golikov-Maltsev) for much of the tournament and therefore getting a limited amount of icetime as a rookie on the national team. If we look at the tournaments (1979 WHC and 1980 WOG) when Makarov had managed to earn a big role on that stacked team Makarov overall scored at a higher rate than Stastny. And like mentioned many times already Makarov was more importantly clearly considered the superior player during this time frame by the people who actually watched them play alot.

 

[Hobnobs]

No it doesn't, to suggest this gives Makarov a massive edge is laughable. Its a fact, over the 3 tournaments from 1978-1980, Stastny outproduced him.

And only against weaker opponents. How does this not get through your head? His edge from the stats you showed are from the Canada game which was a nothing game where the candians didnt show up at all and the W. Germany, Norway and Romania games in olympics of 1980. He scored 13 points vs those opponents out of all those 30 points you believe are significant. And he scored only 1 point in 2 games that actually mattered. Thats right. Stastny played 6 games and had 13 of 14 points against the weakest opponents. Thats not an edge. That padding your stats.