Are the Leafs a better TEAM without Matthews?

[34]

Toronto is a better team with Matthews in the lineup obviously, but I do think that this will be his lowest goal scoring season since he entered the NHL. There is definitely something missing from this guy for sure.

 

[Welsh Maple Leaf]

Much better team without our best player.

Moronic.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Unless you replace him with McDavid, it's pretty obvious the team is better with him.

But I think it's also pretty obvious that the team plays better when he and Marner are separated.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Much better team without our best player.

Moronic.

Is this guy worth 13M?

 

[Racer88]

Depends on what you get back in a trade for him.

If you think removing Matthews from the team is addition by subtraction you're wrong. This isn't Jacob Trouba we're talking about. Despite their winning record with him out of the lineup the Leafs are definitely a much better team with Matthews than without.

A stud franchise centre is an absolute must, must, must have to win the cup.

They might not win with Matthews but they definitely won't win without him. There is no overstating just how important Auston Matthews is to this organization as a result. He is the Captain of the team and face of the franchise.

He is literally re-writing the history books in front of our eyes.

If, for some ungodly reason, the Leafs decide to trade Matthews they may as well just start the rebuild. Because even if another #1C were to come back he would be a lesser player than Matthews. Teams aren't gonna let the Leafs rip them off so the throw-ins wouldn't be enough to improve Toronto over status quo.

It's pretty hard to imagine any scenario where this team would be better off long term without Matthews than with him.

A stud centre is for sure a necessity. It doesn’t have to be Matthews but someone. Yes he is rewriting the record books on personal stats but so far it has not helped the team in the playoffs.
As far as a lesser centre than Matthews it makes no difference because every year since he has been in the league a team has won rounds and cups without him.
saying that we couldn’t win without Matthews is not accurate

 

[mjd1001]

I think the question is more interesting when asked from a slightly different perspective....

Do the rest of the players, collectively, play better when Matthews is not on the ice?

Meaning, they aren't better overall as a team without Matthews as they are with Matthews. But when you take him away. He is better than the player that replaces him. But, the 'other 19' step up their game when he isn't on the ice, and they take a step back when he is there.

 

[thewave]

Put him on with Domi and Knies ffs. Let MM and WN run a line.

Stop relying on Rielly as a vector for offense, he blows

 

[Aashir Mallik]

I’d take around 5-10 players over him.

He’s too bipolar to build around. Year to year, month to month, game to game you don’t know what you’ll get

You shouldn’t be able to say this for a guy making 13.25 but here we are.

 

[cyris]

I don’t think the Leafs are a better team without a healthy Matthews.
But this clearly isn’t a healthy version of Matthews.
Matthews found a way to still be effective without being at the top of his game 2 seasons ago so hopefully he can at least get back to that. But until then they need to reduce his minutes and responsibilities imo.

 

[DutchHockeyGuy]

Not a better team likely, but for sure a lot more likeable. They have become as uninteresting to watch again as they have been for long stretches in every other season with Marner and Matthews running the show.

 

[Stephen]

Not a better team likely, but for sure a lot more likeable. They have become as uninteresting to watch again as they have been for long stretches in every other season with Marner and Matthews running the show.

A couple of things I found interesting this week with Matthews and the team energy levels.

The Leafs were sluggish and terrible vs New Jersey but won on that Matthews OT breakaway where he came in charging down the ice at 100 km/h, took control, there was so much energy in that moment, kind of Exhibit A of what a Matthews led offense is supposed to do for Toronto.

When he scored the one timer in Detroit to tie the game at 1-1, it was so nonchalant, like silent killer, assassin mode and it was just so flat.

Now I'm not going to draw any conclusions from goal scoring celebrations and what they mean, but you can see the difference when your best player and captain is playing with emotion, building emotional energy vs not. It's definitely a skill and something they need to be aware of as a factor in how the group behaves, feels, etc.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

With stolarz out we are going to need him and nylander to step up.

Can’t run woll into the ground and Hildeby shouldn’t be expected ti do much right now

We need him to start scoring some goals and leading the team.

If not, depending on the stolarz injury the standings could start to look ugly

 

[Antropovsky]

@Stephen The gdt was closed before I could respond to your post about Marner driving his own line.

This year Marner wasnt controlling play when Matthews was injured.

Marners on ice stats this year without Matthews pretty much across the board show that his line has been largely outplayed by the opponent:

Corsi without Matthews 42%

FF% without Matthews 41%

Xgf% without Matthews 37%

SCf% without Matthews 43%

HDCF% without Matthews 39%

Tavares stats are better with Marner not on his line this year.

I'm mystified where this narrative about Marner "driving his own line" is coming from.

 

[Stephen]

@Stephen The gdt was closed before I could respond to your post about Marner driving his own line.

This year Marner wasnt controlling play when Matthews was injured.

Marners on ice stats this year without Matthews pretty much across the board show that his line has been largely outplayed by the opponent:

Corsi without Matthews 42%

FF% without Matthews 41%

Xgf% without Matthews 37%

SCf% without Matthews 43%

HDCF% without Matthews 39%

Tavares stats are better with Marner not on his line this year.

I'm mystified where this narrative about Marner "driving his own line" is coming from.

I think one would look at Marner’s 8 G 11 A and the Leafs vying for first place in the Atlantic in November largely without Matthews and just be generally okay with those results. Without having to go look for reasons to be upset with Marner.

 

[Antropovsky]

I think one would look at Marner’s 8 G 11 A and the Leafs vying for first place in the Atlantic in November largely without Matthews and just be generally okay with those results. Without having to go look for reasons to be upset with Marner.

Marners stats 5v5 while Matthews was injured:

9 gp 0 goals 2 assists 2 points 5 shots on goal

1 primary assist, 1 secondary assist

Given these stats. And the atrocious 5v5 advanced stats I posted earlier.... how can anyone conclude that Marner "drives his own line without Matthews"?

Im genuinely curious.

 

[TonsofPuppies]

Yes, they are. Not in a vacuum where you just remove Matthews from their lineup, of course. But if you factor in the quality of player(s) that you could replace him with for his salary, the answer to this question is obvious. Auston is a semi-regular regular season hero and career playoff zero. His level of play in big games doesn't come anywhere close to justifying his salary and frankly his regular season performances, which are super goal heavy because the dude is a shit passer, are underwhelming. I'd take 50G and 100A over 70G and 30A any day.

 

[Stephen]

Marners stats 5v5 while Matthews was injured:

9 gp 0 goals 2 assists 2 points 5 shots on goal

1 primary assist, 1 secondary assist

Given these stats. And the atrocious 5v5 advanced stats I posted earlier.... how can anyone conclude that Marner "drives his own line without Matthews"?

Im genuinely curious.

I dislike Marner as much as the next guy come May playoff failures, but I don’t know what to tell you if you’re digging that deep looking for flaws after a 20 point month and contending for first in the division. Don’t know what more you need to see in a regular season month.

 

[Welsh Maple Leaf]

Is this guy worth 13M?

The guy who pots 50? Quite obviously.

 

[ACC1224]

I think one would look at Marner’s 8 G 11 A and the Leafs vying for first place in the Atlantic in November largely without Matthews and just be generally okay with those results. Without having to go look for reasons to be upset with Marner.

How sad is it that you need to post that?
So weird.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I dislike Marner as much as the next guy come May playoff failures, but I don’t know what to tell you if you’re digging that deep looking for flaws after a 20 point month and contending for first in the division. Don’t know what more you need to see in a regular season month.

As much as I don't care for Marner's greediness and combativeness with the media when things are going rough...I would say that this year he has acted as more of a captain than AM has. Same with JT...they both stepped up in AM's absence.

 

[Gary Nylund]

As much as I don't care for Marner's greediness and combativeness with the media when things are going rough...I would say that this year he has acted as more of a captain that AM has. Same with JT...they both stepped up in AM's absence.

That's an interesting thought. Probably accurate too and wow, Marner acting more of a captain than Matthews, I don't think anyone saw that coming. This was supposed to Matthews team and instead of leading, he's just sort of there. Maybe he should pull a Trudeau and say he's considering giving up the captaincy LOL. I jest of course but seriously, he doesn't look like much of a captain so far. Shoulda been Rielly, oh well.

Marner with the media, sigh. I haven't really been watching anyone address the media this season (most seasons come to think of it) but Marner ... he should just say "no comment, I'll talk to you guys when the playoff are over for us, hopefully in June". Leave it that, and if there's fines to be paid let the team pay them and let others do the talking.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

That's an interesting thought. Probably accurate too and wow, Marner acting more of a captain than Matthews, I don't think anyone saw that coming. This was supposed to Matthews team and instead of leading, he's just sort of there. Maybe he should pull a Trudeau and say he's considering giving up the captaincy LOL. I jest of course but seriously, he doesn't look like much of a captain so far. Shoulda been Rielly, oh well.

Marner with the media, sigh. I haven't really been watching anyone address the media this season (most seasons come to think of it) but Marner ... he should just say "no comment, I'll talk to you guys when the playoff are over for us, hopefully in June". Leave it that, and if there's fines to be paid let the team pay them and let others do the talking.

That's a very good description of AM...just there. It seems the team takes on his persona most nights, sometimes good...sometimes not so good. I really didn't like his play in Detroit at the end of the 2nd when he missed a pass and then nonchalantly went back in the zone barely trying. I expect that from a Robertson...but I expect a whole lot more from a supposed defensive stalwart that AM is supposed to be when they compare him to Barkov.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That's a very good description of AM...just there. It seems the team takes on his persona most nights, sometimes good...sometimes not so good. I really didn't like his play in Detroit at the end of the 2nd when he missed a pass and then nonchalantly went back in the zone barely trying. I expect that from a Robertson...but I expect a whole lot more from a supposed defensive stalwart that AM is supposed to be when they compare him to Barkov.

Yeah I mean I guess everyone has their moments when they don't look good, it happens to the best of them. That said, it's not even that he's supposed to be so good defensively (and he really is good defensively too), it's that what you ideally want out of your captain is to set a good example, and probably the most important part of that is to be seen giving 100% as close to 100% of the time as you possibly can. I remember Sittler and Gilmour were like that and that's one thing this team is really missing IMO - a leader!

From what I've seen so far, Matthews just doesn't have it in him. I guess they made him captain because he's the best player and they didn't see that they had any better choices and that's maybe my biggest concern for the playoffs. New coach, great. New system, people are raving about that OK great but if you don't have leadership, you're going nowhere.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Yeah I mean I guess everyone has their moments when they don't look good, it happens to the best of them. That said, it's not even that he's supposed to be so good defensively (and he really is good defensively too), it's that what you ideally want out of your captain is to set a good example, and probably the most important part of that is to be seen giving 100% as close to 100% of the time as you possibly can. I remember Sittler and Gilmour were like that and that's one thing this team is really missing IMO - a leader!

From what I've seen so far, Matthews just doesn't have it in him. I guess they made him captain because he's the best player and they didn't see that they had any better choices and that's maybe my biggest concern for the playoffs. New coach, great. New system, people are raving about that OK great but if you don't have leadership, you're going nowhere.

Fair points, I will add that he was never a captain on any of his teams growing up and we all assume it was because he was just so much younger than everyone else to be named a captain. That didn't stop McDavid when he was playing in the OHL....

 

[Gary Nylund]

Fair points, I will add that he was never a captain on any of his teams growing up and we all assume it was because he was just so much younger than everyone else to be named a captain. That didn't stop McDavid when he was playing in the OHL....

Yeah I mean I don't want to criticize him for not being captain material, it's not his fault. He's a great player obviously, one of the best of his generation. But when I look at our playoff record and the way our core keeps disappointingly withering away when the stakes are highest, I can't help but feel like there's a leadership vacuum. I feel like none of these core guys have it, and that's why we're going to keep on losing. If we could trade one of these core guys for someone with that it factor, that could go a long way to solving our problems but now they're all locked in ... the time to do it was after we lost to MTL, could have gotten a massive return for 1st all-star Marner despite his pukey playoffs, imagine 2 lesser guys with leadership qualities, something like ROR and that type of Dman. But our management group has no balls to make that kind of move and now it's too late anyway. I expect Marner to be resigned for a small fortune and we'll likely watch many more scenes of the same movie.

I can't tell you how badly I hope I'm wrong about this, but that's what I see.