Are Sweden becoming worse?

[Elvs]

Sweden has a population of ten million people and much fewer registred hockey players/rinks than Canada. We're not gonna produce elite players on a consistant basis no matter how good of a program we have. There was a gap between Forsberg/Sundin/Lidstrom and Zetterberg/the Sedin's/Lundqvist, then another gap until Backstrom/Karlsson/Hedman, then another one until Pettersson/Dahlin... I'm not worried about Sweden's future. We'll continue to develop a few superstars here and there, and plenty of quality depth in between.

 

[wings5]

Elite Prospects - NHL Stats 2020-2021

How is russian list more impressive than Sweden?

I meant more Canada and the US, Russia is close but still has more quality players as of now

 

[Albatros]

Sweden has a population of ten million people and much fewer registred hockey players/rinks than Canada. We're not gonna produce elite players on a consistant basis no matter how good of a program we have. There was a gap between Forsberg/Sundin/Lidstrom and Zetterberg/the Sedin's/Lundqvist, then another gap until Backstrom/Karlsson/Hedman, then another one until Pettersson/Dahlin... I'm not worried about Sweden's future. We'll continue to develop a few superstars here and there, and plenty of quality depth in between.

Another thing to ask is whether hockey in Sweden can really become as inclusive, younger generations are more diverse than the older ones but not many among the visible minorities are drawn to hockey for a variety of reasons. This has of course in part also to do with where hockey is the most popular, but nevertheless there's a lot of potential for continuous decline already because of demography and the sport's relationship with it.

 

[Fatass]

Lots of great Swedish players. Every country has down cycles.

 

[93LEAFS]

I wouldn't worry about it, Swedish stars often breakout later than average, not sure why. Forsberg and Pettersson hit the ground running, but Sundin, Alfredsson, Lidstrom, Sedins, Zetterberg, Naslund, Lundqvist etc. all had their best years in their late 20's/early 30's. Very rarely do they have their best years in the 22-25 range like the average NHL player does.

Sundin broke out at 21/22, and just remained ridiculously consistent for longer than expected. The notable gap between the players you listed if you remove Sundin, is that outside of the Sedin's, all were not top 10 picks, whereas if you move Sundin to the first grouping, all of them were top 5 picks. Obviously players who emerge early on in their careers tend to be higher draft picks.

 

[stonec]

Well no. Sweden is allways maintaining a high level of players. Almost every nhl-team has a swede on their playing roster. At the end of every nhl season, theres at least one new swedish stanley cup champion. Same can´t be said for example about Finland....

Swedish club teams win CHL almost every time its played, their league is the second strongest in whole Europe. National teams get gold medals at regular basis. If I were a swede, I wouldn´t be nervous at all. Sweden is doing well.

There was a time when Sweden didn't produce many top NHL prospects in the mid 2000's. After that you made changes to the junior system, which had great success. The same changes were done later in Finland and we start seeing the results now. I think the difference between Finland and Sweden will close down now when the junior development programs are more similar. While Finland has less population, hockey is the number one sport here, so the player talent pool is comparable.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Another thing to ask is whether hockey in Sweden can really become as inclusive, younger generations are more diverse than the older ones but not many among the visible minorities are drawn to hockey for a variety of reasons. This has of course in part also to do with where hockey is the most popular, but nevertheless there's a lot of potential for continuous decline already because of demography and the sport's relationship with it.

The fertility rate is very close to generational renewal and most immigrants to Sweden are Europeans and we see a lot among young Swedish players.

The first foreign community is Finnish.

In the other two major sports, Football and Handball, there are practically only native Swedes.

 

[Albatros]

The fertility rate is very close to generational renewal and most immigrants to Sweden are Europeans and we see a lot among young Swedish players.

The first foreign community is Finnish.

In the other two major sports, Football and Handball, there are practically only native Swedes.

I wouldn't really agree with the notion regarding soccer, on the contrary the best up and coming players like Dejan Kuluševski and Alexander Isak have a different background. Without them the situation in that sport would be pretty dreary too. The times that kids of Finnish descent like Gary Sundgren or Ola Toivonen contributed meaningfully to Swedish soccer are gone, the Finnish population may be large but it is also increasingly old. If you don't get kids of Macedonian or Eritrean descent playing hockey instead of other sports then you simply will have fewer kids playing hockey in the future. In Canada also basketball may have been more successful than hockey in attracting minorities, but in hockey too the diversity is better than in Sweden.

 

[Goodman68]

Good question. As a Czech, I deal with this problem every day. The answer is yes, Sweden is on a terrible descent. Goodbye, again for some clever question.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I wouldn't really agree with the notion regarding soccer, on the contrary the best up and coming players like Dejan Kuluševski and Alexander Isak have a different background. Without them the situation in that sport would be pretty dreary too. The times that kids of Finnish descent like Gary Sundgren or Ola Toivonen contributed meaningfully to Swedish soccer are gone, the Finnish population may be large but it is also increasingly old. If you don't get kids of Macedonian or Eritrean descent playing hockey instead of other sports then you simply will have fewer kids playing hockey in the future. In Canada also basketball may have been more successful than hockey in attracting minorities, but in hockey too the diversity is better than in Sweden.

Johnny Oduya is not new. Currently you have Mika Zibanejad. This year there were Raymond (French) and Holtz (German). I understand your theory but it does not take into account a social fact : communitarianism.

The vocation of allochthonous minorities (Africans, Muslims) who pose as otherness to the host society is to come together to become a majority group. Swedish natives will definitely give up Football, more and more Swedish natives or those close to Swedish culture (other Europeans) will play hockey.

In addition, it is evident that native Swedish people are much more athletic than people in East Africa and the Middle East. This explains why, despite the demographic growth of these populations in football clubs in large Swedish cities, the national team remains predominantly made up of native Swedish people.

It would really take a total demographic crash for your scenario to happen. The current situation, on the contrary, seems to stimulate Swedish natives to play more hockey. In any case, the current and future trend destroys your theory of decline. Swedish hockey has never been stronger and promises to be even stronger in the years to come.

In 2020, Sweden broke their record for selected players in the draft (32). Sweden has reached the 20 mark for 12 years in a row. 5 years in a row that the 25 mark has been reached. Mark that was only achieved for the first time in 2009.

I predict 7 Swedish players in the first round in 2021. For 2022 there are already Salomonsson, Ostlund and Persson who promise to be very strong. There are early athletic phenomena like Karl Sterner (2006). The level of young Swedes born between 2003 and 2007 is impressive.

 

[Albatros]

Johnny Oduya is not new. Currently you have Mika Zibanejad. This year there were Raymond (French) and Holtz (German). I understand your theory but it does not take into account a social fact: communitarianism.

If Eritreans and Macedonians monopolize Football in the future, Swedish natives will definitely give up Football, more and more Swedish natives or those close to Swedish culture (other Europeans) will play hockey.

At the same time, the vocation of allochthonous minorities who pose as otherness to the host society is to come together to become a majority group.

Diversity in hockey depends on the development of nations. Skin color or religion doesn't matter.

In any case, the current and future trend destroys your theory of decline. Swedish hockey has never been stronger and promises to be even stronger in the years to come.

I predict 7 Swedish players in the first round in 2021. For 2022 there are already Salomonsson, Ostlund and Persson who promise to be very strong. There are early athletic phenomena like Karl Sterner (2006).

It's very unlikely that Oduya would have ended up playing hockey either if his mother wasn't Medelsvensson, and that really epitomizes the problem. I don't see soccer becoming less popular among the masses, if anything it has dwarfed hockey already. In the 1990s you used to have more people going to hockey games and even as recently as ten years ago it was quite even, but today it's nowhere close. The number of hockey teams in Sweden has halved since the 1990s despite growth in women's hockey. Also in many other European countries men's hockey is in decline so comparisons to them in terms of draft picks and alike are fairly meaningless. But in Sweden there would be more potential to turn that development around by making the sport more welcoming to all youth.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

It's very unlikely that Oduya would have ended up playing hockey either if his mother wasn't Medelsvensson, and that really epitomizes the problem. I don't see soccer becoming less popular among the masses, if anything it has dwarfed hockey already. In the 1990s you used to have more people going to hockey games and even as recently as ten years ago it was quite even, but today it's nowhere close. The number of hockey teams in Sweden has halved since the 1990s despite growth in women's hockey. Also in many other European countries men's hockey is in decline so comparisons to them in terms of draft picks and alike are fairly meaningless. But in Sweden there would be more potential to turn that development around by making the sport more welcoming to all youth.

Your data is completely wrong.
SweHL 2019-20 team attendance at hockeydb.com

SEL 1996-97 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Hockey has never been Sweden's number one sport. This sport started to develop very late.

You're making a complete mistake : European hockey is getting stronger and stronger. In a few years, helped by tchecoslovakia's resurrection, European players will be in the majority in the next drafts. It has been 4 years in a row that the 40% mark was exceeded. This has never been done before this streak.

Hockey does not exclude anyone. Only communities prefer to regroup among themselves. You cited the example of blacks in Canada. Overwhelmingly, they still will prefer to watch sports where there are 90% blacks, such as the NBA or the NFL, and play sports where they are in the majority. And since a minority cannot be a majority in all sports, it need makes choices. The fact that hockey is played by young people close to the indigenous culture is no more of a problem than the community football clubs in Malmo or Stockholm. It is a social fact that stems from multiculturalism.

Anyway, I have known Sweden much stronger in Football in the past (early 90s); I have never known Sweden as strong in hockey as it is today.

 

[Albatros]

Your data is completely wrong.
SweHL 2019-20 team attendance at hockeydb.com
SEL 1996-97 team attendance at hockeydb.com
Hockey has never been Sweden's number one sport. This sport started to develop very late.

In the late 1980s and the early 1990s the soccer league had seasons with attendances averaging under 4000. Djurgårdens IF had a top-level team in both sports with 8000 going to hockey games, 4000 to soccer.

You're making a complete mistake : European hockey is getting stronger and stronger. and in a few years, European players will be in the majority in the draft. It has been 4 years in a row that the 40% mark was exceeded. This has never been done before this series.

That's mostly just another illusion created by the internet and other major advances in scouting, teams can now access a ton of material of any player they want even from places they ignored before. European player production overall certainly isn't reaching new heights, you could see at the WJC how those numbers look on the ice. But teams are more comfortable drafting Europeans, that much is true.

Hockey does not exclude anyone. Only communities prefer to regroup among themselves. You cited the example of blacks in Canada. Overwhelmingly, they will prefer to watch sports where there are 90% blacks, such as the NBA or the NFL, and play sports where they are in the majority. And since a minority cannot be a majority in all sports, it makes choices. The fact that hockey is played by young people close to the indigenous culture is no more of a problem than the community football clubs in Malmo or Stockholm. It is a social fact that stems from multiculturalism.

Hockey may not actively exclude, but how much does it really do to include in Sweden? Even effing bandy has achieved more in that regard. In Canada basketball may be popular among visible minorities, but you do have more inclusion in hockey as well. In Swedish professional hockey it's Daniel Muzito Bagenda and that's pretty much it.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Until now you have always put forward false data or without sources.

I know world hockey and its evolution. Your talk about inclusion is biased. Can we really speak of inclusion in Basketball when a community of 4% represents 80% of players in Canada ? I see more Asians in Hockey than in Basketball in Canada.

 

[Brun0]

Yeah in Finland every who play need to be registered for insurance reasons, not in Sweden. Sweden has a bigger pool though.

Rantanen-Aho-Teräväinen
Laine-Barkov-Kakko

would take the Finnish top 6

 

[Brun0]

Rantanen-Aho-Teräväinen
Laine-Barkov-Kakko
Hintz-Kotkaniemi-Lambert
Donskoi-Lundell-Räty

Pulju-Haula-Kapanen
Armia-Granlund-Lehkonen
Vesalainen-Koivu-Komarov
Luoto-Borgström-Saarela
Tolvanen, Kuokkanen, Luostarinen, Filppula, Vesalainen...

Heiskanen-Ristolainen
Lindell-Jokiharju
Lehtonen-Heinola
Juolevi-Välimäki
Määttä-Vatanen
Niku-Nutivaara
Riikola

Rask
Rinne
Raanta
Kähkönen
Saros
Koskinen
Lankinen

We could be up there

 

[Brun0]

Heiskanen-Ristolainen
Lehtonen-Heinola
Juolevi-Välimäki
Määttä-Vatanen
Niku-Nutivaara

 

[mattihp]

Yeah in Finland every who play need to be registered for insurance reasons, not in Sweden. Sweden has a bigger pool though.

Rantanen-Aho-Teräväinen
Laine-Barkov-Kakko

would take the Finnish top 6

What would the swedish be?

Filip Forsberg - Elias Petterson - William Nylander
Gabriel Landeskog - Mika Zibanejad - Elias Lindholm/Victor Olofsson

Does Bäckström still count? William Karlsson?

 

[Garl]

What would the swedish be?

Filip Forsberg - Elias Petterson - William Nylander
Gabriel Landeskog - Mika Zibanejad - Elias Lindholm/Victor Olofsson

Does Bäckström still count? William Karlsson?

Forsberg-Pettersson-Arvidsson
Landeskog-Zibanejad-Nylander
Lindholm-Backstrom-Rakell
Olofsson-Backlund-Silfverberg
Hornqvist-Sundqvist-Johnsson
Kempe-Jarnkrok-Burakovsky

Hedman-Karlsson
OEL-Ekholm
Dahlin-Lindholm
Klingberg-Brodin
Andersson-Larsson

Lehner
Markstrom
Ullmark
Hogberg
Johansson

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Maybe Sweden isn't becoming worse but other countries have gotten better. I'm talking about USA and Finland mostly. Russia obviously isn't as good compared to the USSR days.

 

[Husqvarna]

The fertility rate is very close to generational renewal and most immigrants to Sweden are Europeans and we see a lot among young Swedish players.

The first foreign community is Finnish.

In the other two major sports, Football and Handball, there are practically only native Swedes.

What a freezin' cold, cold, cold try to lie, lie, lie ... and both you and I know it, Sweden baby.
Even if the rest of the (hockey-) world do not. That pic down/above of the Sweden national football team (and yes sir in USA/Canada; I mean proper football!) is probably from a random training match - and false as water; because the up'n coming footballers in Sweden are nowadays skilful immigrants often from the former Yugoslavia. Lex Zlatan as ya'll know.

Handball?! ... yeah, yeah, yeah who even cares ...

 

[mattihp]

Many of the swedes with less swedish names disappear when it is time for the big national team, they seldom get their shot and choose the countries of their parents instead. It is fine to give those kids time in the U-21, U-20, U-18 etc. but when it comes to the big team.. You need to be an exceptional talent to make the team with a non-swedish sounding name.
Edit: this is about football, to clarify.

 

[mattihp]

Forsberg-Pettersson-Arvidsson
Landeskog-Zibanejad-Nylander
Lindholm-Backstrom-Rakell
Olofsson-Backlund-Silfverberg
Hornqvist-Sundqvist-Johnsson
Kempe-Jarnkrok-Burakovsky

Hedman-Karlsson
OEL-Ekholm
Dahlin-Lindholm
Klingberg-Brodin
Andersson-Larsson

Lehner
Markstrom
Ullmark
Hogberg
Johansson

For a swedish best of the best team... That is weaker than 10 years ago. But there is still some world-breaking talent like Hedman, Karlsson, Nylander, Zib and Pettersson. But I bet there are some of the guys who are ok right now at the age 22-24 who will suddenly break out, swedish style.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Sweden World Cup 2018 :

Olsen, Lustig, Lindelof, Grandqvist, Olsson, Augustinsson, Larsson, Ekdal, Berg, Forsberg, Guidetti, Johnsson, Svensson, Helander, Hiljemark, Krafth, Claesson, Jansson, Rohden, Toivonen, Durmaz, Thelin, Nordfeldt

Apart from Ibrahimovic (40 years old), no really talented footballer. At least not from my French point of view. Sweden is very poor in Football. Norway has a significantly stronger younger generation, Denmark has been significantly stronger over the past 25 years.

Handball is the 2nd major sport in Sweden but also in Europe.

You say things will change and I agree. I know that in Stockholm and Malmo there are young community football clubs where there are hardly any Swedish natives. Young Swedish natives or European immigrants seem to concentrate on ice hockey.

Sweden is very strong in hockey, there are a lot of extremely talented and skillful young people. Over 100 Swedish players play in NHL. Twenty years ago, there were only 40.

A national Olympic team that would be exclusively made up of players with a score of 84 and above on an EA Sports game (except the third GK).

A 2021 Draft promotion that promises to be stronger than ever.

 

[Garl]

For a swedish best of the best team... That is weaker than 10 years ago. But there is still some world-breaking talent like Hedman, Karlsson, Nylander, Zib and Pettersson. But I bet there are some of the guys who are ok right now at the age 22-24 who will suddenly break out, swedish style.

I guess, I disagree that it's weaker than 10 years ago. Yes, 10 years ago Sedins and Zetterberg were in their primes, and I guess, I would take prime Zetterberg and prime Sedins over any current swedish forward. But the rest of swedish team 10 years ago was very old. And if we don't take into consideration Lidstrom who was 41 10 years ago, other defensemen would have trouble making current Team Sweden. Maybe Kronwall would make it but thats it.