Apparently Rene Fasel is just as insane as Bettman

[ForumNamePending]

It's not just the last two, the '98 and '02 OG were the same for the top teams. In '06 the top 8 teams made it to the playoffs. In the Canada Cup only the top 2 or 4 did, so it obviously a completely different situation. Furthermore goal differential may have come into play in determining who made it through to the playoffs in the Canada Cups so there was a reason to run up the score. In short I don't think the number of blowouts necessarily reflects the competitive balance as you first suggested.

I don't think I ever suggested the number of blowouts reflects the competitive balance. Then again maybe I did, but that was beside my main point, which was, at the risk of beating a dead horse... Someone stated that what made the CC/WCups special was that there wasn't a lot of blowouts, I simply pointed out those tournaments have actually had plenty of blowouts.

Lot's of different formats have been used, some where the round-robin/prelim round eliminates teams and others where it only determines seeding (and sometimes byes), and in each format we have seen instances of weaker teams getting destroyed by stronger teams and weaker teams keeping the score close or even getting some kind of result against stronger teams.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on how much the final scoreline and/or result is influenced by the amount of 'worthiness' the stronger team is placing on a given game.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

The skill level of the Finnish, Czech and Slovak teams have all decreased relative to the top teams in the last 11 years in my opinion.

Finland ?

They medal all the time in international tournaments, at all levels.

 

[RandR]

The latest news on the 2016 World Cup is that the lunatic idea of a leftover Euro "all-star team" and a junior NA squad is still on the books.

And for some reason Rene Fasel is pandering to this nonsense.



Is he just as mental as Bettman on this issue or does he want the NHL to self-destruct on the international front and turn the WC into a farce?

A man who oversees competitions between national teams cannot possibly think this is a good idea.

I think that is closer to what is going on. Having things like a leftover Euro "all-star team" and a junior NA squad make the World Cup more of a side show, cheapening it when compared to Olympic hockey.

In soccer (football), they take the opposite approach in a way... Olympic men's soccer is essentially a U23 tournament which FIFA is probably fine with because it doesn't challenge the men's World Cup finals as being the only tournament deciding a true world champion.

Here, men's Olympic hockey will remain the only "real deal" and such a World Cup will remain clearly visible as an NHL tournament.

I am not a big fan of Fasel, but I think he knows what he is doing here. He probably sees the bottom line on this ... the more different Bettman's world cup is from Olympic men's hockey, the better for the IIHF, especially when those differences are as dubious as those 2 extra squads.

 

[fredrikstad]

Agreed, but with one problem. The Slovaks are strong enough to field a team. If I were Slovakian I would be quite insulted if the nation wasn't invited. Sure their best are aging, but some good young players like Reway and Dano are coming up and in 18-20 months could be much more talented, mature players. Mix that in with some veteran talent and solid goaltending (Halak) and they could get into the medal round. After all it is a short tournament, and they did it 2010.

The Junior idea is stupid. Invite Switzerland, if not, combining Switzerland/Denmark/Germany/Latvia/Belarus/Slovenia (i.e Kopitar) would actually field a great team.

Denmark currently has Nielsen, Eller, Boedker, Andersen, and Hansen in the NHL, not to mention a few solid AHL/NHL borderline players, as well as Ehlers and Bjorstrand coming up and Mads Eller. Phillip Larsen in the KHL too.


Germany has weakened in recent years but Leon Draisaitl will be great when he develops. Ehroff, Goc, Greiss, Holzer, Seidenberg. Grubauer in AHL, and Alexander Sulzer in DEL.

Latvia offers some good KHLer's as well as Girgensons who can really play.

Switzerland would comprise most of this teams D-core, with Josi and Streit. Too many other names, but they have great talent to field a team alone, as I said above.

Don`t forget Norway/Zuccarello
Though the most reasonable would be a United EU team to meet the United States team

 

[fredrikstad]

I really don't get why people are so opposed of these ideas being tossed around.

This isn't meant to be a World Championship tournament, being run with a strict sense of national purity. Its an NHL-organized exhibition tournament being run to both make money, and market the NHL and its players.

If it were up to me, I'd accomplish those goals in two simple ways:

1) Include as many star players from the NHL as possible

2) Include interesting story lines within the tournament to keep the fans and media engaged

Now, lets assume that 5 of the teams will be made up of the 5 'major' hockey nations: Canada, Russia, United States, Finland, Sweden (hypothetical classification, not a political statement, don't want to argue if other countries are 'major' hockey nations right now, etc.). Lets say that leaves 3 more teams for an 8-team tournament. I see two major types of options:

OPTION A: Traditional

This would simply add 3 more countries to the mix, likely Slovakia, Czech Republic, and one of Germany/Switzerland/Denmark/Belarus, etc.

Would this include as many star players as possible?

No, because star players from countries outside the tournament wouldn't be able to play (Kopitar, Ehrhoff, Grabovski, Josi, Neiderreiter, Nielson, Boedker, Vanek, Zubrus, Zucarello, and most importantly, Girgensons ). How would the tournament be better by excluding most of these players?

Would this encourage interesting story lines?

No, it would just look like every other International tournament where you would have 3 tiers of teams: 1) Teams that have a good chance of winning; 2) Teams that are less likely to win, but could pull an upset; 3) Teams that realistically have no chance.

OPTION B: Non-traditional

This would allow for some of the variation that has been tossed around in discussion. For the sake of this example, and considering the options that have already been brought up, here is how I will fill out my tournament:

1-5) Canada, US, Russia, Finland, Sweden
6) Slovakia & Czech Republic (combined)
7) All-Star Team of remaining countries
8) Young Guns team of players aged 18-22 from every country*
*this would mean that the rosters of teams 1-7 can only consist of players 23 or older

Would this include as many star players as possible?

Yes, it would. The best players in the world would be eligible with no restrictions on nationality. Additionally, the Young Guns team would be a draw for more serious NHL fans that would provide an extra chance to see some of their team's prospects in action. It would essentially be marketing the 'next generation' of NHL stars.

Would this encourage interesting story lines?

Absolutely. First of all, in terms of parity, teams 6 & 7 will have stronger rosters in this scenario for sure, and arguable, so would team 8. Having a stronger pool of teams will create more opportunities for close matchups and unpredictable results. There will also be interesting plotlines to follow with all 3 of these teams.

6) Interviews of players from Slovakia and Czech Republic to talk about their feelings on playing together, get some insight into how their families were affected by the former Czechoslovakia breaking up, human interest, yadda yadda.

7) You'd have to think that the teams from 'rejected' nations might have some additional motivation to prove their worth and be taken more seriously.

8) This team of young players probably have the most to gain from this situation, you would expect these young players to bring tons of energy of having something to prove. I think they are also a team that lots of fans would root for, and that many fans (myself included) would be curious about how well they could perform.


I see a lot more merit to Option B. I think its perfectly fine to disagree, but I don't think either of the two options is 'crazy' or 'insane'.

I love your optin B
Would be great,if they don`t pull NHL players away from the Olympics

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Finland ?

They medal all the time in international tournaments, at all levels.

I was referring to the skill level of the individual players, not the team results.

 

[fredrikstad]

It wouldn't be a true "best on best" tournament though, as Sweden and Switzerland would be left out. Unless they wanted to join together and form "Team Neutral". And what would Finland do? Play a few hard-fought preliminary exhibition games vs. Russia to a draw in Helsinki, then drop out of the tournament when they're asked to join Team Axis??

We would need a team Aliens, a team Christianity and a team Muslims too

 

[Oleg Petrov]

I put this in another thread, Not married to the format, just think you need teams that have geographical ties.


U.S. States
Minnesota – NHL players in 14-15 = 36 - Parise
Michigan – NHL players in 14-15 = 27 - Kesler
New York – NHL players in 14-15 = 23 - P Kane, D Brown
Massachusetts – NHL Players in 14-15 = 13 - Yandle, John Carlson
Wisconsin – NHL Players in 14-15 = 11 - Kessel, Suter
California – NHL Players in 14-15 = 9 - Orpik, Nieto
Connecticut – NHL Players in 14-15 = 9 - Pacioretty
Pennsylvania – NHL Players in 14-15 = 8 - Brandon Saad, John Gibson
Illinois – NHL Players in 14-15 = 7 - Craig Anderson

USA Bracket
GM 1 - Illinois V Pennsylvania – Philadelphia, PA – Sept 7, 2015
GM 2 – Connecticut V Michigan – Detroit, MI – Sept 8, 2015
GM 3 – California V New York – NY, NY – Sept 8, 2015
GM 4 – Wisconsin v Mass – Boston, MA – Sept 9, 2015
GM 5 – Winner Gm 1 v Minnesota – Minneapolis, MN – Sept 9, 2015
GM 6 – Winner GM 2 v Winner GM 5 – NY, NY - Sept 11, 2015
GM 7 – Winner GM 3 v Winner GM 4 – NY, NY – Sept 11, 2015
GM 8 – Winner GM 6 v Winner GM 7 – NY, NY – Sept 12, 2015

Canadian Provinces
Ontario – NHL Players in 14-15 = 167 - Stamkos
Alberta – NHL Players in 14-15 = 54 - Iginla
Quebec – NHL Players in 14-15 = 48 - St. Louis et le gang
B.C. – NHL Players in 14-15 = 44 - Shea Weber
Saskatchewan – NHL Players in 14-15 = 38 - Getzlaf, Marleau
Manitoba – NHL Players in 14-15 = 26 - Jon Toews
Maritimes – NHL Players in 14-15 = 21 - Crosby

CANADA BRACKET
GM 1 – Maritimes V Manitoba – Winnipeg, MTB – Sept 7, 2015
GM 2 – Saskatchewan V Alberta – Calgary, AB – Sept 8, 2015
GM 3 – B.C. V Quebec – Montreal, QC – Sept 8, 2015
GM 4 – Winner GM 1 V Ontario – Toronto ON – Sept 11, 2015
GM 5 – Winner GM 2 V Winner GM 3 – Toronto, ON – Sept 11, 2015
GM 6 – Winner GM 4 V Winner GM 5 – Toronto, ON – Sept 12, 2015

SEPT 15, 17 & 19 – Game 1 in NYC, Game 2 & 3 in Toronto
Winner USA Bracket V Winner Canada Bracket

 

[fredrikstad]

I put this in another thread, Not married to the format, just think you need teams that have geographical ties.


U.S. States
Minnesota – NHL players in 14-15 = 36 - Parise
Michigan – NHL players in 14-15 = 27 - Kesler
New York – NHL players in 14-15 = 23 - P Kane, D Brown
Massachusetts – NHL Players in 14-15 = 13 - Yandle, John Carlson
Wisconsin – NHL Players in 14-15 = 11 - Kessel, Suter
California – NHL Players in 14-15 = 9 - Orpik, Nieto
Connecticut – NHL Players in 14-15 = 9 - Pacioretty
Pennsylvania – NHL Players in 14-15 = 8 - Brandon Saad, John Gibson
Illinois – NHL Players in 14-15 = 7 - Craig Anderson

USA Bracket
GM 1 - Illinois V Pennsylvania – Philadelphia, PA – Sept 7, 2015
GM 2 – Connecticut V Michigan – Detroit, MI – Sept 8, 2015
GM 3 – California V New York – NY, NY – Sept 8, 2015
GM 4 – Wisconsin v Mass – Boston, MA – Sept 9, 2015
GM 5 – Winner Gm 1 v Minnesota – Minneapolis, MN – Sept 9, 2015
GM 6 – Winner GM 2 v Winner GM 5 – NY, NY - Sept 11, 2015
GM 7 – Winner GM 3 v Winner GM 4 – NY, NY – Sept 11, 2015
GM 8 – Winner GM 6 v Winner GM 7 – NY, NY – Sept 12, 2015

Canadian Provinces
Ontario – NHL Players in 14-15 = 167 - Stamkos
Alberta – NHL Players in 14-15 = 54 - Iginla
Quebec – NHL Players in 14-15 = 48 - St. Louis et le gang
B.C. – NHL Players in 14-15 = 44 - Shea Weber
Saskatchewan – NHL Players in 14-15 = 38 - Getzlaf, Marleau
Manitoba – NHL Players in 14-15 = 26 - Jon Toews
Maritimes – NHL Players in 14-15 = 21 - Crosby

CANADA BRACKET
GM 1 – Maritimes V Manitoba – Winnipeg, MTB – Sept 7, 2015
GM 2 – Saskatchewan V Alberta – Calgary, AB – Sept 8, 2015
GM 3 – B.C. V Quebec – Montreal, QC – Sept 8, 2015
GM 4 – Winner GM 1 V Ontario – Toronto ON – Sept 11, 2015
GM 5 – Winner GM 2 V Winner GM 3 – Toronto, ON – Sept 11, 2015
GM 6 – Winner GM 4 V Winner GM 5 – Toronto, ON – Sept 12, 2015

SEPT 15, 17 & 19 – Game 1 in NYC, Game 2 & 3 in Toronto
Winner USA Bracket V Winner Canada Bracket

That would be epic. A hockey dream come true

 

[Urbanskog]

That would be epic. A hockey dream come true

Whose dream exactly?

 

[Pepper]

Rene Fasel is an idiot and has always been one.

Yours truly,
European hockey fan.

Umm no, let me refrase that.

Yours truly,
A hockey fan from Europe.

There's a difference.

 

[LSnow]

I like the idea. Just scrap all the national teams. Make 6-8 team captains who pick from set list of players who are willing to join the tournament then "national team" aspect comes coaches from different countries.

Or just play it like any other national tournament.

 

[Big Phil]

It`s all pretty straightforward to me. Switzerland and Slovakia and it's game on. For god's sake, Slovakia just won bronze at the WJC. They're not exactly a rubbish team.

I can see why Bettman would back the "all-star" idea since he knows nothing about hockey and is merely out to make a fast buck with gimmicks.

But Fasel? Shouldn't he be standing up for common sense and tradition?

I had hoped he would be the voice of sanity but instead he's playing right along with the idiots.

Perhaps he hopes that giving in to the NHL's lunacy will make it more likely that they show up in 2018.

It won't happen. Marian Hossa, Zdeno Chara ring a bell? You think they want to play for "Team.......World All-Star" or whatever or Slovakia? It is just a stupid gimmick that is being floated and poorly received. The "bright" minds in hockey do this just to be different. But it will never float. Fasel is still a clown though. He still got booed a bit after the Gold medal game at the WJC even though the home crowd was in a very good mood.

 

[tony d]

Option B looks like a great option, I don't care for the World Cup but I might be able to get into it and they go that route.

 

[mjlee]

In what other country besides Canada, and maybe the US would this be worth 100 million USD? None of the European countries nor in Russia would it ever attract enough attention and/or crowds to make it profitable. Placing it in a European/Russian time zone will further cut down on NA audiences. Even the WHC which is well known and respected in Europe struggles to turn a profit unless IIHF puts it in some dictatorship that is willing to underwrite it.

If the NHL wants to profit it will have to perpetually be placed in Canada or a northern US state which is easily accessible for Canadians. Which is fine and understandable but does detract from the World Cup aspect. Why not go back to calling it what it really is, Canada Cup?

 

[Urbanskog]

In what other country besides Canada, and maybe the US would this be worth 100 million USD? None of the European countries nor in Russia would it ever attract enough attention and/or crowds to make it profitable. Placing it in a European/Russian time zone will further cut down on NA audiences. Even the WHC which is well known and respected in Europe struggles to turn a profit unless IIHF puts it in some dictatorship that is willing to underwrite it.

If the NHL wants to profit it will have to perpetually be placed in Canada or a northern US state which is easily accessible for Canadians. Which is fine and understandable but does detract from the World Cup aspect. Why not go back to calling it what it really is, Canada Cup?

Eh? The WHC is very profitable.

 

[Jussi]

In what other country besides Canada, and maybe the US would this be worth 100 million USD? None of the European countries nor in Russia would it ever attract enough attention and/or crowds to make it profitable. Placing it in a European/Russian time zone will further cut down on NA audiences. Even the WHC which is well known and respected in Europe struggles to turn a profit unless IIHF puts it in some dictatorship that is willing to underwrite it.

If the NHL wants to profit it will have to perpetually be placed in Canada or a northern US state which is easily accessible for Canadians. Which is fine and understandable but does detract from the World Cup aspect. Why not go back to calling it what it really is, Canada Cup?

Sewden's pretty much the only country who failed to make a profit on hosting it. Finland made a combined profit of 10,5 ,million euros from the 2012 and 2013 Workds.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

"According to TSN’s Rick Westhead the NHL and NHLPA will announce the return of the world cup of hockey during the NHL all star break, which takes place Jan. 22-26.

Westhead added one of the tweaks to the tournament will include a best-of-three final. In November Sportsnet’s Chris Johnston reported potential changes to the format. Rumored changes to the tournament include two all star teams in addition to the top six hockey nations (Canada, U.S., Sweden, Finland, Russia and Czech Republic).

One all star squad will be made up of the best players from Slovakia, Switzerland, Latvia, Germany and Slovenia, among others.

The make-up of the second all star team is yet to be determined. Last month IIHF president Rene Fasel weighed in on the proposed changes.

“To be very honest, I like the idea. If we go with No. 7 and 8 with normal matching teams, we have that in the Olympics, we have that in the Canada Cup, we have that in the World Championships. Now having this selection. There’s a discussion about having European selection, it would be a great team with non-participating European teams building up a team,” said Fasel. “Then the second one is North American selection. That can be a very interesting for the hockey fans, great. That could be something. It is still an idea. There’s a rumor. We don’t know yet what they’re going to do. Personally, I like it very much.”

Fasel may like it, but players we here at PHT talked to were skeptical.

“It would be hard to play for some kind of different team, but I guess at the same time, a lot of the small countries, they’re producing really good players,” said Olli Jokinen, who’s represented Finland internationally on a number of occasions. “Players like that, a lot of time they don’t get a chance to play tournaments like that.”

Added U.S. Olympian, and Toronto Maple Leafs forward, James van Riemsdyk: “There’s more pride it in, for the players, when you’re representing your country. I think it’s fun when you have the different countries like you have every year in one of these tournaments there’s a big upset and that’s what makes it fun.

“I think it’s more fun when you have the countries (competing).” Toronto is expected to be one the venues for the 2016 tournament."


Best of 3 for the final. That was the format in 1996.

 

[Canuckistani]

Best of 3 for the final. That was the format in 1996.

I like the best of 3 final, but if the event has these stupid all-star teams it'll be a meaningless joke either way.

Won't be watching a second of it.

 

[mjlee]

Sewden's pretty much the only country who failed to make a profit on hosting it. Finland made a combined profit of 10,5 ,million euros from the 2012 and 2013 Workds.

Heh, well I thought I read that the WHC had to go to Minsk because no other European country would host it, because of the crippling cost. Yeah, the WHC in Sweden was a disaster, total misread of the prices and market.

 

[Stanley Foobrick]

He is going to kiss Bettman's ass at every turn now, he sees the writing on the wall.

His Olympic sized ego had him believing the NHL needed the Olympics more than the Olympics needed the NHL, he now realizes that mistake and will do, say just about anything to keep the NHL players at the Olympics. Only problem is it's too late.

The two week break, injuries, and the profits going to the IOC off the NHL players (not necessarily in that order) have all built up to this final decision to close the books on the NHL / Olympic marriage.

 

[Stanley Foobrick]

I like the best of 3 final, but if the event has these stupid all-star teams it'll be a meaningless joke either way.

Won't be watching a second of it.

You're that concerned who the also ran teams are? That's too bad, you're going to miss a great tournament played by the big 6 hockey nations. The only 6 that have a realistic chance of winning anyway.

 

[saskganesh]

"we have that in the Canada Cup,"

Present tense noted. Funny.

Sounds like he's making up nice things to say because it's nice to say nice things.

Looking forward to the ECHL All Stars and the Combined World Women's Team being proposed next.

Which is is OK as this is not a serious tournament.

 

[ulvvf]

Will be interesting to see Team leftover kissing and waving their flag after they have won. I will definitely cheer for team leftovers, the biggest joke in hockey history.

Who cares, World Cup is a meaningless event. Anything that's run by the NHL in the International arena means squat.

Agree, unfortunately there is no good international tournament in hockey, much thanks to NHL´s unhealthy strong position in the hockey world

 

[Canuckistani]

You're that concerned who the also ran teams are? That's too bad, you're going to miss a great tournament played by the big 6 hockey nations. The only 6 that have a realistic chance of winning anyway.

Slovakia just won bronze at the WJC and made the semifinals in Vancouver.

Switzerland beat Canada in 06, took us to a shotoout in Vancouver, and made the final of the 2013 WHC.

How are these teams deserving of losing their spot to some BS no-nation squads?

And if it were true that only six nations have a chance at winning then make it a six nation tournament! What is the purpose of the two joke teams other than to turn the whole event into a complete farce?

The two week break, injuries, and the profits going to the IOC off the NHL players (not necessarily in that order) have all built up to this final decision to close the books on the NHL / Olympic marriage.

Leaving hockey with no best-on-best event. This is a complete travesty for fans and players alike.