Apparently Rene Fasel is just as insane as Bettman

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I think it depends on what the goal is for this tournament. Again, if the idea is to have essentially a replica of the Olypics and World Championships, then sure, some of these suggestions go against the essence of that kind of tournament. If the goal is to market the NHL and its players, maybe something different could be as good or better. Its arguable that the allowing teams like Germany and Switzerland to compete in a tournament agains Canada/Russia/US, etc. is also a 'complete joke' from a competitive point of view.

I'm just saying that we already have tournaments like that, so what is the harm in not having a 3rd tournament do exactly the same thing?

I agree with you on this (although maybe the NHL wants to attack the german market)

the thing is though, as I think I have said before, that people understandably assume that the NHL wants this tournament to replace their participation in the olympics. In that case there would not be a best-on-best tournament anymore in international hockey.
 
What's the problem with this idea? Everyone is panning it, but no one is articulating their position. Let the best players play.
 
Hockey World Cup ? its a NON starter

unlike the Olympics (world stage) or the WJC (young prospects playing for their hockey future)

here we have possible NHL stars going out to possibly risk injury, for low media coverage, 0$, paying $ insurance premiums, low national coverage (except Canada and 2 european countries ? ...rest , USA & Russia don't give a crap)

whats the point to this event ?...I am sure NHL owners want really nothing to do with this
 
I agree with you on this (although maybe the NHL wants to attack the german market)

the thing is though, as I think I have said before, that people understandably assume that the NHL wants this tournament to replace their participation in the olympics. In that case there would not be a best-on-best tournament anymore in international hockey.

If the NHL comes out and says that this is replacing the olympics, then yeah, I agree with the idea that I'd like to retain a tournament of best-on-best national teams. But, to my knowledge, this hasn't been said or suggested, so its just fans being paranoid for now.

I guess my personal feeling is that NHL players will compete in the olympics for as long as they want to. Whenever the topic comes up of the NHL not allowing players to compete, and the NHL has a non-committal response, I just assume it is just one of a list of things that is constantly being used as a negotiating chip in ongoing/future labour disputes. That's just my take, I could be wrong.
 
I really don't get why people are so opposed of these ideas being tossed around.

This isn't meant to be a World Championship tournament, being run with a strict sense of national purity. Its an NHL-organized exhibition tournament being run to both make money, and market the NHL and its players.

If it were up to me, I'd accomplish those goals in two simple ways:

1) Include as many star players from the NHL as possible

2) Include interesting story lines within the tournament to keep the fans and media engaged

Now, lets assume that 5 of the teams will be made up of the 5 'major' hockey nations: Canada, Russia, United States, Finland, Sweden (hypothetical classification, not a political statement, don't want to argue if other countries are 'major' hockey nations right now, etc.). Lets say that leaves 3 more teams for an 8-team tournament. I see two major types of options:

OPTION A: Traditional

This would simply add 3 more countries to the mix, likely Slovakia, Czech Republic, and one of Germany/Switzerland/Denmark/Belarus, etc.

Would this include as many star players as possible?

No, because star players from countries outside the tournament wouldn't be able to play (Kopitar, Ehrhoff, Grabovski, Josi, Neiderreiter, Nielson, Boedker, Vanek, Zubrus, Zucarello, and most importantly, Girgensons :naughty:). How would the tournament be better by excluding most of these players?

Would this encourage interesting story lines?

No, it would just look like every other International tournament where you would have 3 tiers of teams: 1) Teams that have a good chance of winning; 2) Teams that are less likely to win, but could pull an upset; 3) Teams that realistically have no chance.

OPTION B: Non-traditional

This would allow for some of the variation that has been tossed around in discussion. For the sake of this example, and considering the options that have already been brought up, here is how I will fill out my tournament:

1-5) Canada, US, Russia, Finland, Sweden
6) Slovakia & Czech Republic (combined)
7) All-Star Team of remaining countries
8) Young Guns team of players aged 18-22 from every country*
*this would mean that the rosters of teams 1-7 can only consist of players 23 or older

Would this include as many star players as possible?

Yes, it would. The best players in the world would be eligible with no restrictions on nationality. Additionally, the Young Guns team would be a draw for more serious NHL fans that would provide an extra chance to see some of their team's prospects in action. It would essentially be marketing the 'next generation' of NHL stars.

Would this encourage interesting story lines?

Absolutely. First of all, in terms of parity, teams 6 & 7 will have stronger rosters in this scenario for sure, and arguable, so would team 8. Having a stronger pool of teams will create more opportunities for close matchups and unpredictable results. There will also be interesting plotlines to follow with all 3 of these teams.

6) Interviews of players from Slovakia and Czech Republic to talk about their feelings on playing together, get some insight into how their families were affected by the former Czechoslovakia breaking up, human interest, yadda yadda.

7) You'd have to think that the teams from 'rejected' nations might have some additional motivation to prove their worth and be taken more seriously.

8) This team of young players probably have the most to gain from this situation, you would expect these young players to bring tons of energy of having something to prove. I think they are also a team that lots of fans would root for, and that many fans (myself included) would be curious about how well they could perform.


I see a lot more merit to Option B. I think its perfectly fine to disagree, but I don't think either of the two options is 'crazy' or 'insane'.

I agree with this. I mean, we have Olympics, we have WHC. I've viewed the world cup as a fun extra event. I'm not opposed to combining the lower teams to make them more competitive at all.

I'd even be fine with a U23 all star team, they wouldn't be as competitive, but there are a lot of good U23 players, they wouldn't get completely blown out and it would be a good experiance.

And to those saying, well that destroys a best on best tournament, well not really. Assuming all the players get released we will see the top 5 teams with probably their best teams possible. How would a Canada, or USA, or Russia Olympic team differ from their team under this format? It wouldn't. The only difference is the Czech/Slovak combined, Best of the rest, and young team, and I don't see either of those 3 teams winning, so you'll still get your hypothetical lets see which team is best in a best on best tournament.

The only one objection I would have with your proposal is 22 year olds not being allowed on their team but instead have to play for the young team. I think if a 22 year old can make his national(or combined national) team then he should. The junior team would take a big hit if say a 22 year old McDavid jumped from them to Canada but they weren't winning anyway so I think that should be done to furthur the "best on best" idea.
 
What's the problem with this idea? Everyone is panning it, but no one is articulating their position. Let the best players play.

For me it turns a legitimate best-on-best international tournament that has the potential over time, to become a prestigious event, into something that is along the lines of the NHL All-Star Game...something that is fun perhaps but is meaningless and has little prestige.

I would prefer that the NHL stay at the Olympics (it has built-in legitimacy) but don't mind the idea of a true World Cup. Just like football/soccer, rugby, cricket etc. if you make a proper tournament (qualifications, not invitations) then given enough time it has the potential to turn into a significant event with a lot of meaning, like the Rugby World Cup.

Once you change it from national teams, to adhoc all-star teams, it becomes nothing more than a series of friendlies/exhibition games. It loses legitimacy as a proper tournament to crown the best hockey nation. Lots of sports have World Cups and the format is pretty consistent, and they don't include all-star teams!
 
I like Team Axis vs Team Allies, with Russian players crossing over from one team to the other midway through the tournament, and with US players joining the squad soon after.

It wouldn't be a true "best on best" tournament though, as Sweden and Switzerland would be left out. Unless they wanted to join together and form "Team Neutral". And what would Finland do? Play a few hard-fought preliminary exhibition games vs. Russia to a draw in Helsinki, then drop out of the tournament when they're asked to join Team Axis??
 
If the NHL comes out and says that this is replacing the olympics, then yeah, I agree with the idea that I'd like to retain a tournament of best-on-best national teams. But, to my knowledge, this hasn't been said or suggested, so its just fans being paranoid for now.

I guess my personal feeling is that NHL players will compete in the olympics for as long as they want to. Whenever the topic comes up of the NHL not allowing players to compete, and the NHL has a non-committal response, I just assume it is just one of a list of things that is constantly being used as a negotiating chip in ongoing/future labour disputes. That's just my take, I could be wrong.

I think one of the looming problems is the upcoming 2022 Olympics hosts (China or Kazakhstan) are not looking promising. The IOC has priced/corrupted themselves out of dealing with desirable locations for the Olympics, especially the less glamorous Winter Olympics. I believe the NHL is preparing to take a stance that if you want our players, you need to pick a host we are comfortable with sending our players to.
 
I really don't get why people are so opposed of these ideas being tossed around.

This isn't meant to be a World Championship tournament, being run with a strict sense of national purity. Its an NHL-organized exhibition tournament being run to both make money, and market the NHL and its players.

And what would be the motivation for players to attend such a tournament?

"Silly nationalism" and similar words that proponents of this stupid idea use is the only reason why players give up time to rest/spend time with their families/heal up/whatever to play in the Olympics/WC.

Forcing some of the best players in the world to play for some "leftover all-star" team instead of their country is like making a tournament where one team is composed of players with last name starting with A-D, another one with E-H etc.

You mentioned Czechoslovakia, I guess that would be doable, but the reason for it is that the vast majority of Czech and Slovak players were born in Czechoslovakia, same with the vast majority of Czech and Slovak fans. There would still be a sense of playing for "our country". But leftover all-star team is just stupid. Same with juniors being forced to play against their own countries.
 
And what would be the motivation for players to attend such a tournament?

"Silly nationalism" and similar words that proponents of this stupid idea use is the only reason why players give up time to rest/spend time with their families/heal up/whatever to play in the Olympics/WC.

Forcing some of the best players in the world to play for some "leftover all-star" team instead of their country is like making a tournament where one team is composed of players with last name starting with A-D, another one with E-H etc.

You mentioned Czechoslovakia, I guess that would be doable, but the reason for it is that the vast majority of Czech and Slovak players were born in Czechoslovakia, same with the vast majority of Czech and Slovak fans. There would still be a sense of playing for "our country". But leftover all-star team is just stupid. Same with juniors being forced to play against their own countries.

Exactly, it's idiotic. ordering players alphabetically could provide an even more balanced tournament than what most people here are suggesting.
 
Burn this idea to hell.

Seriously flamethrower this God damn idea.

Either have a proper 12-16 team World Cup, or just keep the NHL in the Olympics.
 
And what would be the motivation for players to attend such a tournament?

"Silly nationalism" and similar words that proponents of this stupid idea use is the only reason why players give up time to rest/spend time with their families/heal up/whatever to play in the Olympics/WC.

Forcing some of the best players in the world to play for some "leftover all-star" team instead of their country is like making a tournament where one team is composed of players with last name starting with A-D, another one with E-H etc.

You mentioned Czechoslovakia, I guess that would be doable, but the reason for it is that the vast majority of Czech and Slovak players were born in Czechoslovakia, same with the vast majority of Czech and Slovak fans. There would still be a sense of playing for "our country". But leftover all-star team is just stupid. Same with juniors being forced to play against their own countries.

My understanding is that revenue from the World Cup would be split equally between owners and players. You make more money if you attract more attention. You attract more attention by including as many star players as possible. So, that's their motivation to play...

Also, the alternate format isn't about 'forcing' players to be put on an All-Star team, its about finding a way to include Star NHLers whose home countries wouldn't normally be involved in such a tournament.

A number of different formats were considered for the relaunch of the World Cup, but Toronto emerged as the strongest candidate because of the anticipated impact it would have in the world’s largest hockey market. In future, it is believed that cities around the world might be involved a bidding process for the event, which one source indicated could generate as much as $100-million in revenue.

That money will be split evenly between the league and players and doesn’t fall under hockey-related revenue. As a result, it won’t have any impact on the salary cap.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/toronto-to-host-2016-world-cup-of-hockey/
 
For me it turns a legitimate best-on-best international tournament that has the potential over time, to become a prestigious event, into something that is along the lines of the NHL All-Star Game...something that is fun perhaps but is meaningless and has little prestige.

I would prefer that the NHL stay at the Olympics (it has built-in legitimacy) but don't mind the idea of a true World Cup. Just like football/soccer, rugby, cricket etc. if you make a proper tournament (qualifications, not invitations) then given enough time it has the potential to turn into a significant event with a lot of meaning, like the Rugby World Cup.

Once you change it from national teams, to adhoc all-star teams, it becomes nothing more than a series of friendlies/exhibition games. It loses legitimacy as a proper tournament to crown the best hockey nation. Lots of sports have World Cups and the format is pretty consistent, and they don't include all-star teams!

This is about as clear an opinion against doing something different that I've read, and it makes a lot of sense.
 
the problem with creating fictitious all-star teams is just that. There is no precedence, protocol or good reasoning for it. some may argue against the purpose of national teams as-is, but at least there is a long standing tradition of NTs across various sports around the world including hockey. You could just make up whatever conditions you want to assemble a team and it wouldn't, and shouldn't count for anything. Why not make a team of "best players not on the first six NTs"?

Slovakia is a good team and, aside from a poor 2014 campaign for the senior men's group, can take it to any top nation. Excluding them for "competitive" reasons just shows a lack of knowledge and respect towards international hockey. Switzerland can be equally as good and equally as dangerous especially in elimination games.

In today's world, there are 8 nations that can play competitively against each other with some obvious favorites (and a few bubble teams that can challenge some of these 8 from time to time). I'd of course prefer best if they played the best 8 teams according to IIHF rankings, but I'd much prefer them just using the 6 teams instead of inviting two farcical made-up teams based on whatever parameters they wish. Hell, why not a purely fan voted team then? Why not allow Canada's B and C team to join in with the "rest of the world"? Why not make a team based only out of the Ontario province? How about a team excluding players over 200 lbs, or restricting it to under 5'9" in height and below? It would be equally as arbitrary and ridiculous.
 
the problem with creating fictitious all-star teams is just that. There is no precedence, protocol or good reasoning for it. some may argue against the purpose of national teams as-is, but at least there is a long standing tradition of NTs across various sports around the world including hockey. You could just make up whatever conditions you want to assemble a team and it wouldn't, and shouldn't count for anything. Why not make a team of "best players not on the first six NTs"?

Slovakia is a good team and, aside from a poor 2014 campaign for the senior men's group, can take it to any top nation. Excluding them for "competitive" reasons just shows a lack of knowledge and respect towards international hockey. Switzerland can be equally as good and equally as dangerous especially in elimination games.

In today's world, there are 8 nations that can play competitively against each other with some obvious favorites (and a few bubble teams that can challenge some of these 8 from time to time).

I kinda disagree. If you have a best-on-best tournament, I'd say there's about a 99% chance that one of the top 5 will win (CAN/USA/RUS/SWE/FIN). Saying that Slovakia or Switzerland has no real chance of winning isn't an insult, its just the truth.

I'd of course prefer best if they played the best 8 teams according to IIHF rankings, but I'd much prefer them just using the 6 teams instead of inviting two farcical made-up teams based on whatever parameters they wish. Hell, why not a purely fan voted team then? Why not allow Canada's B and C team to join in with the "rest of the world"? Why not make a team based only out of the Ontario province? How about a team excluding players over 200 lbs, or restricting it to under 5'9" in height and below? It would be equally as arbitrary and ridiculous.

Again, people are listing all sorts of crazy ideas and calling them equal. All I'm arguing is that there IS a reason for some of the ideas floating out there. If the purpose is to include as many NHL stars as possible, then the All-Star Team idea makes sense. Restricting a team to under 5'9" or over 200 lbs doesn't add anything and makes much less sense.
 
Who cares, World Cup is a meaningless event. Anything that's run by the NHL in the International arena means squat.

It'll mean more than the Olympics.

The Canada Cups meant more than Olympic hockey gold for any real hockey fan before professionals were allowed to play.
 
... people are listing all sorts of crazy ideas and calling them equal. All I'm arguing is that there IS a reason for some of the ideas floating out there. If the purpose is to include as many NHL stars as possible, then the All-Star Team idea makes sense. Restricting a team to under 5'9" or over 200 lbs doesn't add anything and makes much less sense.

Hmmm...pretty sure he was trying to be humorous, plus (tongue firmly in cheek ) to make a point :naughty:
 
better hockey doesn't equal a legit tournament, esp if everything is just supposed to be framework for an eventual canada-usa final


Au contraire, Canada Russia will do just fine. Gotta have Canada for the TV ratings though... But no worries, Canada always makes World/Canada Cup finals...Just know...IF the Russians win, they can’t keep our trophy ;)
 

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