ThorntonFightClub*
Registered User
Yet Marchand, a more established player, has equally sucked in that same time frame with a larger cap hit without a peep.
Salary Cap: Anybody still crying about Reilly Smith
- Thread starter LouJersey
- Start date
Yet Marchand, a more established player, has equally sucked in that same time frame with a larger cap hit without a peep.
LSCII
Cup driven
Why is it literally impossible to be honest and critical about Smith and his play without bringing up other guys who had struggles? Does it make it Smith's play any more acceptable if you say "sure, but player X also didn't play up to his abilities either". Is that really a valid point? Smith started off ridiculously hot when he first got here. After he cooled down, he's been a marginal player at best. Nothing Marchand has done or not done matters or invalidates that as fact. If Marchand never scores another goal in this league, it still won't make Smith's last season and a half good. He's struggled. Simple as that.
Stone Clode
Kicks him, stunner!!
While I mostly agree with that, the counterpoint is that their struggles could be intertwined. Marchand struggled in conjunction with Smith, as they were on the same line together, but only Smith seems to get ragged on.
That being said, the whole team was awful, and trended downwards last season (well, maybe not Eriksson). The exceptions to that were Spooner and Pastrnak, but they started at the bottom anyway (now they're here). I'm willing to give Smith a second shot at it, as in general I think two seasons isn't a terribly huge sample size (in the grand scheme of a career), what with given the absolute rollercoaster this team has been from winning the president's trophy to missing the playoffs entirely. Just like one good season could be a fluke, so could one bad year. I tend to point to your mentioning of the 'more like half good year, 1 and half bad'. That could certainly be the case, but again I think a 3rd year will be the true tell. Whether or not he'll be in Boston for that though is another case entirely.
ThorntonFightClub*
Registered User
Hurts when context kills your argument, eh?
Marchand has struggled for 2 years now. His numbers are declining, he is taking more team killing penalties and his playoff performance has been non existent.
All while having a far larger cap hit than Smith has to date.
Yet there isn't this mob trying to ship him out of town to anyone who will listen because his cap hit is so "egregious".
Ever consider that Marchand is weighing that line down?
LSCII
Cup driven
Smith got over twice the PP time on ice as Marchand, while not producing, and Marchand got 10 times the SH toi as Smith. So basically, Smith gets all ES or PP time in situations where offense and scoring is needed, while Marchand gets zero of that PP time, and plays a ton when scoring is not conducive (shorthanded) yet he still out scored Smith both the last two seasons, despite him sucking like you claimed.
And as for your recollection of Marchand not being shopped by fans, you're wrong. He was decided on as the odd man out decided on here to clear cap space last off season. Everyone wanted him gone, and they were very vocal about it. Even Dale Arnold was on the radio campaigning for this. So you're imagining things when you say Marchand doesn't catch ****. He does. A ton of it in fact.
But again, that has no impact on what Smith did last year. Smith struggled and is now grossly overpaid. Marchand has zero to do with that.
Bergeron and Marchand actually both performed a lot better when playing with Smith than apart. Same trend held true the previous year as well. If I'm looking at the numbers right, Bergeron scored at a higher clip playing with Smith than anyone else on the team at ES over that span (including Marchand). Small sample sizes with individuals, but he actually spend a decent amount of time away from each other last year.
I honestly don't think there was a problem with that line. Marchand had abnormally low assist totals. Bergeron was around his norm.
Also Smith actually scored goals at a better rate than Eriksson 5 on 5. His individual numbers were essentially the same as his 20 goal season 5 on 5. He saw a massive dive in SH% on the PP. Actually lower than his ES%.
5v5 ---
Bergeron averages 2.89 gf60 with Smith, 1.32 without
Marchand averages 3.00 with and 1.58 without
Smith apart from those two? 2.11 and 1.98
Bergeron averages 2.89 gf60 with Smith, 1.32 without
Marchand averages 3.00 with and 1.58 without
Smith apart from those two? 2.11 and 1.98
ODAAT
Registered User
this. I have always been 100% neutral on him. Don't hate him, don't love him (except his GW against MTL last year in the playoffs)
if his play/production this season are where they were last then yep, open season to blast him but sorry, this team had almost an entire roster, IMO, outside of the Spooner/Pasta who I would say brought their all and played up to their potential....not good enough, and not good enough from far too many last year, Smitty doesn`t even register on the radar for me in comparison to those making far more who did just as little or less
Jean_Jacket41
Neely = HOF
How many 24y with a 20g-50pts under their belt have signed extensions for less than 3.4M?
LSCII
Cup driven
Seeing as Smith has played the lions share of games there the last two seasons, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the 1.32 and 1.58 numbers are both from a very, very small sample size. A more interesting comparison would be how the numbers from Seguin to Smith looked against each other for both Marchand and Bergeron.
Banded Peak
Registered User
- Apr 15, 2015
- 608
- 768
Smith was eight among forwards, and fifth in both blocks and takeaways. So, ****, average and average. If those things are such valuable things to judge a forward by than Backlund and his 58 takeaways all while playing 30 less games and having almost as many blocked shots despite playing 30 less games ought to knock your socks right off.
Backlund is leaps and bounds better than he was two years ago, Smith has regressed to the point of being practically useless since oh what New Years of '14?
And while the third line is where Backlund is destined to be is not where he plays now.
LSCII
Cup driven
It doesn't matter. Last season, Smith showed regression yet he still got an extension that is paying him for his high, and not what he's been over the last year and a half. To me, it's too much.
BB88
Registered User
- Jan 19, 2015
- 41,268
- 23,475
Marchand-Bergeron-Connolly/Eriksson
Lucic-Spooner-Pasta
Eriksson/Connolly-Krecji-Rantanen/Meier
Koko-Kemppainen-Ferlin/Randell
where's the room for Smith?
I take the cap space and sign a big UFA D if they want to go for it and with that F group they could go for it and not destroy our future.
Kelly+Seids+Smith out, we'd have plenty of assets and cap to spend at the deadline and in the next offseason, room to do signins.
Chara-Hamilton
Krug-Sekera
Morrow-McQ
Meloche/Linus
Rask.
Lucic-Spooner-Pasta
Eriksson/Connolly-Krecji-Rantanen/Meier
Koko-Kemppainen-Ferlin/Randell
where's the room for Smith?
I take the cap space and sign a big UFA D if they want to go for it and with that F group they could go for it and not destroy our future.
Kelly+Seids+Smith out, we'd have plenty of assets and cap to spend at the deadline and in the next offseason, room to do signins.
Chara-Hamilton
Krug-Sekera
Morrow-McQ
Meloche/Linus
Rask.
Backlund has developed into a very good defensive forwards who takes on tough matchups for Calgary. At this point he is a better 3 zone player than Smith and his deal buys 2 years UFA, the Backlund contract is better.
Lol, what? A more interesting comparaison to prove your point maybe, but that's just aweful. While Smith is a good little player, Seguin is an all star. Does anyone here think Smith is as good as Seguin? Then why should we compare him with? If Smith is doing as good as Seguin he is ok, if he's doing worst than Seguin he's bad?!?
LSCII
Cup driven
It's an interesting comp because those are the last two guys who have played with Bergeron and Marchand specifically. It doesn't prove any point I'm trying to make because regardless of what those numbers are, Smith still has played poorly over the last year and a half. No stat is going to change that fact. It does speak to a lack of elite offensive players on the roster today, but that's an entirely different discussion and not one I'm looking to get into. I'd just like to see it because I'm curious. If I had to guess, I'd say it probably shows the performance on that line has been pretty consistent regardless of whom was on the wing with them. I'd also guess that the dropoff from Seguin to Smith is a lot closer than people think. And again, that doesn't change anything about what Smith did last year. It was still a bad season for him.
Does this comp really prove that Smith isn't overpaid? To me, it proves that Atkinson's contract is a bit too rich as well …
Two bad contracts don't make a right
No, it just shows that a lot of fans are out of touch with current NHL contracts. The mentality here generally resides in the believe that it's still 5 years ago and the salary cap is only 60 million. It's like being in a room full of Jeremy Jacobs circa 80's-90's in here sometimes.
Jean_Jacket41
Neely = HOF
Yes it does.
If you want to claim that he is grossly overpaid like you just did, you should be able to bring comparative ~24y old with a 20g-50pts season under their belt that signed extensions for much less than 3.4M.
LSCII
Cup driven
You keep citing one season instead of a guy who had 13 goals last year and 40 points. So really what you need to be asking is what do guys who score 16-17 goals per year and tally 45ish points get paid. Because again, he's not a guy who has shown he can consistently score 20 goals and 50 points. He did it once, and even then, he barely managed any goals in the second half of his first year here. From February on through the end of the 2013-2014 season, he had 2 goals. 2. 18 in the first 4 months. 2 in the final 3.
http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/gamelog/_/id/2500990/year/2014/reilly-smith
He's been a guy who over performed for 4 months and then dropped off a cliff. And that drop off has run another full season now. So far, what he's really been is someone who put together a great first 4 months of one season, and then reverted to a guy who is not much more than a JAG at this point.
This may be true, but aren't there good reasons why?
Marchand has built-up cache from some very good times here, he is better defensively, kills penalties, plays on the edge, better puck possession player, better along the boards.
I honestly couldn't name a single positive attribute of Smith's game besides his scoring. And that's fine...scoring is obviously kinda important. But if he's not scoring, he's going to take heat because he doesn't offer much else.
363:05 for Bergeron and 380:23 for Marchand. Actually quite a large sample size. A little more than 1/3 of the season for both players without Smith 5 on 5.
Same trend in 13/14.
Bergeron with Smith averaged 3.74 GF/60 (in 710:01 minutes)
Bergeron without Smith averaged 2.07 GF/60 (in 349:05 minutes).
Marchand with Smith averaged 3.46 GF/60 (in 694 minutes)
Marchand without Smith averaged 2.23 GF/60 ( in 404:25 minutes)
Not suggesting he's the straw that stirs the drink or anything (he's not), but there's nothing to indicate Reilly Smith brings down the production of either Marchand or Bergeron. All indications point to him being an effective compliment (assuming I'm looking at these numbers correctly).
Jean_Jacket41
Neely = HOF
So in other words, you have no example of a ~24y forward that has a 20g-50pts under his belt or 35g-90pts over two season that signed an extension for much less than 3.4M.
LSCII
Cup driven
18 goals in the first 4 months of his Bruins career. 15 goals in the last 10 months combined over two seasons. Sign me up!!
But yeah, 20 goal scorer...
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