Post-Game Talk: Another tease game...how did we only lose 5-3? Season over. Too late to tank?

[ULF_55]

The Blues looked really good.
I think they might win this year.

So the rebuild in Toronto, that would take less than 5 years?

Shouldn't that rebuilt team expect to compete with and be equal to a team like the Blues?

It shouldn't be okay to lose against the Blues because they are a contender.

I do wonder if Bernier should have played though? On the 2nd. goal he just stood there and I wondered if that a mobility problem? Third just went through him, but he probably should have had it, no screen or anything, so maybe he's just not 100%?

 

[Mess]

I agree with you. It seems like Leafs manage to make it interesting but it looks more like the opponent has taken their foot off the gas pedal. In the analytic community, it's called score effects.

When you're down by 3 and have nothing to lose you play desperation hockey. It is without system and structure simply tossing everything into the attack to generate offense. Leafs have some gifted offensive weapons so small end of game burst are moderately successful.

Its not how you would approach any game as it give up far to many quality scoring chances against.

Teams with big leads tend to sit back and allow the attack to come to them.

 

[Warden of the North]

Has a "swarm defense" ever worked? Whch teams have used it successfully in the past? Because Im sick and tired of watching all of our players collapse back allowing the pointmen unhindered shots all night long.

 

[Ari91]

I would like to pose a question to everyone, as I watched the game with my step-father and we had very different opinions about this.


The third period, where the Leafs seemingly "showed up". Was that actually the case? I argue that it wasn't, that St Louis sat back and played defence and in a way just let the Leafs come at them. Let's be real, the Leafs were DOMINATED tonight in the first and second periods, and it wasn't even close. Did they really just decide "oh, crap third period we better start playing now!"? I don't think so, but he didn't agree with me at all.

Thoughts?

That's not how the Blues play defense or protect leads so I wouldn't say that the Blues just sat back because they had a lead. I think the Leafs pressed harder out of desperation to create some chances and the difference had more to do with Miller not being all that sharp in net. Thinking back to that game, I honestly think all of the Leafs best chances did in fact end up in the back of the net. Their other opportunities were eliminated by the Blues defensive play more so than Miller having to make huge saves.

It's been a long time since we've seen a Leafs team that had any killer instinct. This team doesn't have it. I think the Leafs were dominated because the Blues are a better team AND because they play scared. They don't trust themselves enough to be aggressive so they try to play it safe but overthink and in a game where the difference can be milliseconds, it costs them with dumb mistakes (ex. Phaneuf's failure to clear the puck, Franson's inability to play a 2 on 1, etc.). When they go down in games, and do these almost comebacks, a part of me thinks it may be because they have less pressure on them to play the defensive side because they need to press for offense so their offensive risks are justified (in their minds) and it allows them to play a little harder and better.

I'm no psychologist but it just seems like this team is more comfortable being chasers and taking the risk that the chase will get them places.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Has a "swarm defense" ever worked? Whch teams have used it successfully in the past? Because Im sick and tired of watching all of our players collapse back allowing the pointmen unhindered shots all night long.

I've never heard of it before now, and I'm tired of seeing it.

 

[achtungbaby]

Has a "swarm defense" ever worked? Whch teams have used it successfully in the past? Because Im sick and tired of watching all of our players collapse back allowing the pointmen unhindered shots all night long.

Eakins hasn't had much success with it in Edmonton. I don't even know of another team that uses it.

 

[Gallagbi]

It's not new and its more common in international play. We're using a very emphasized collapse, which pulls a lot of players in to odd positions.

The Rangers under Torts used to collapse heavily, similar to us, but the focused on getting in to the lanes and being more aggressive. The Leafs collapse system is more passive.

 

[LeafOfBread]

I really do miss the teams from '99-'04. Those guys at least didn't bend over

 

[Ari91]

It's not new and its more common in international play. We're using a very emphasized collapse, which pulls a lot of players in to odd positions.

The Rangers under Torts used to collapse heavily, similar to us, but the focused on getting in to the lanes and being more aggressive. The Leafs collapse system is more passive.

Maybe it's supposed to be more like Torts system because Carlyle is always complaining about how the team doesn't play aggressive enough when playing in their own end.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I really do miss the teams from '99-'04. Those guys at least didn't bend over

yup.
grit and determination. they still made you want to pull out your hair, but they knew how to fight back.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Can someone explain why Washington is ahead of the Leafs when the Leafs have more ROW? Is it because of the 1 fewer game?

 

[LeafOfBread]

Can someone explain why Washington is ahead of the Leafs when the Leafs have more ROW? Is it because of the 1 fewer game?

Yep, until the full 82 game season has been played out, the team with less games played is automatically ahead in the standings. Of course, if things were to stay this way until game 82, then the Leafs would finish ahead. So really, it's pretty much meaningless besides letting you know that the Caps have games in hand.

 

[Gallagbi]

Maybe it's supposed to be more like Torts system because Carlyle is always complaining about how the team doesn't play aggressive enough when playing in their own end.

Could be, both are pretty flawed though.

We play more of a contain collapse than we do a swarm in my opinion. Swarms are aggressive and cut off options. The Leafs are content to allow low percentage shots and play around the outside of the ice. Theyll cheat towards the slot as well, where a swarm is generally the players cheating to a passing Lane (aside from the pressure man)

 

[KuleminFan41]

So the rebuild in Toronto, that would take less than 5 years?

Shouldn't that rebuilt team expect to compete with and be equal to a team like the Blues?

It shouldn't be okay to lose against the Blues because they are a contender.

I do wonder if Bernier should have played though? On the 2nd. goal he just stood there and I wondered if that a mobility problem? Third just went through him, but he probably should have had it, no screen or anything, so maybe he's just not 100%?

The Blues made good draft picks and acquisitions that work for their team . Remember, the Blues did have only 1 top 5 draft pick on their team and thats Pietrangelo(they did trade Johnson away). They were middle of the pack when it came to the draft and drafted well ,especially their later picks too.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Yep, until the full 82 game season has been played out, the team with less games played is automatically ahead in the standings. Of course, if things were to stay this way until game 82, then the Leafs would finish ahead. So really, it's pretty much meaningless besides letting you know that the Caps have games in hand.

Thanks for clarifying. The only thing you can hope for at this point is that if things are tied the Leafs make it via ROW. They can only realistically beat out Detroit and Washington that way unless they get more points than them(obviously). All is not lost though but things are certainly slipping away

 

[LeafOfBread]

The Blues made good draft picks and acquisitions that work for their team . Remember, the Blues did have only 1 top 5 draft pick on their team and thats Pietrangelo(they did trade Johnson away). They were middle of the pack when it came to the draft and drafted well ,especially their later picks too.

They had a plan in place for how they wanted to build their team and followed it very well. Hitchcock instilled a strong culture within the team and you see everyone following the system to a T.

Smart acquisitions over the years like Steen, Sobotka, Shattenkirk etc while also effective use of non top-10 picks to grab guys like Oshie, Schwartz and Berglund have led to them building the team they wanted to. These players were just seen as good cheap depth a few years ago but are integral to the team now in their own ways.

Blues have been able to find an identity, while the Leafs are still lost in the water, trying to navigate themselves on the right path.

They're kind of stuck in the middle of nowhere right now. Some days it looks like they're trying to follow the path of the Bruins or Blues where they have a gritty team with good goaltending, but the defense sucks too much to follow that kind of plan and the team is still really lazy and soft in many ways.

Then other days, it looks like they're trying to be more like Chicago or San Jose, relying on speed and skill. But again, crap team defense that can't cover for those high risk plays; if the forwards want to play this way, they need to have a commitment to back-checking and playing a strong 2-way game like players such as Hossa, Toews, Couture, Marleau, etc. all do.

 

[Renegade]

If it comes down to Toronto and Detroit for a playoff spot, Detroit is only up by 1 ROW.

If we are tied with Detroit in ROW, we would need to win the regular season game on saturday to be tied in matchup wins.

The last tie breaker would be goal differential. Wings are -13, Leafs are -15.

If it came down to this, could be very close depending on the finish.

 

[cookie]

Has a "swarm defense" ever worked? Whch teams have used it successfully in the past? Because Im sick and tired of watching all of our players collapse back allowing the pointmen unhindered shots all night long.

It may be the only defensive scheme appropriate for players lacking in defensive awareness. Other teams are making full use of this and the shot counts can attest to this fact.

 

[Tak7]

If it comes down to Toronto and Detroit for a playoff spot, Detroit is only up by 1 ROW.

If we are tied with Detroit in ROW, we would need to win the regular season game on saturday to be tied in matchup wins.

The last tie breaker would be goal differential. Wings are -13, Leafs are -15.

If it came down to this, could be very close depending on the finish.

You have nothing to worry about.

The Leafs will be mathematically out of contention before the end of the season, so there will be no need for tie-breaker scenarios involving Toronto.

With 3 point games + the fact that the Leafs have played more games than the rest of the wild card contenders, you can almost guarantee that the Leafs won't be in the mix now.

 

[Igy]

I know I will get some hate for this, but I hope the Leafs don't make the playoffs this season even if there is still a little chance. This team sucks and we aren't going far in the playoffs anyway. I'd much rather have a top 10 pick and make changes this summer.

 

[HEAVY DUTY]

I know I will get some hate for this, but I hope the Leafs don't make the playoffs this season even if there is still a little chance. This team sucks and we aren't going far in the playoffs anyway. I'd much rather have a top 10 pick and make changes this summer.

yup same here. the silver lining for me is that carlyle will get fired. something i've been wanting since our december/january skid.

 

[LeafOfBread]

I know I will get some hate for this, but I hope the Leafs don't make the playoffs this season even if there is still a little chance. This team sucks and we aren't going far in the playoffs anyway. I'd much rather have a top 10 pick and make changes this summer.

Honestly I don't disagree. My worry is around the coaching specifically..if we somehow will our way into the playoffs, I feel like Nonis is going to be fooled by the mirage and will keep Carlyle on.

I mean I would love to watch playoffs, but I'm not sure what exactly is the best thing for this team right now. At the same time, maybe getting into the ****ing playoffs is what they need. We saw last year how much they settled down their game once the playoffs came around and how they actually controlled the play for many stretches during those games.

Regardless there needs to be changes this off-season. I want Franson and maybe Lupul gone. These guys epitomize what is wrong with the club

 

[Renegade]

The Leafs will be mathematically out of contention before the end of the season

Not a guarantee. Games in hand don't prove anything yet. Columbus got shut out by the Islanders this past weekend, Detroit lost their last two, Washington isn't separating themselves either.

It COULD come down to the last day, but if the Leafs play the way they have been, they'll be done by sunday. So I agree there.

There is still 8 games left. Ain't done til' it's done.

 

[Renegade]

I know I will get some hate for this, but I hope the Leafs don't make the playoffs this season even if there is still a little chance. This team sucks and we aren't going far in the playoffs anyway. I'd much rather have a top 10 pick and make changes this summer.

I don't think we'll get a top 10 pick either way. If we miss we'll probably end with a 12-15 overall pick. Especially in a weak draft, I'd much rather squeak in and get destroyed in the first round.

Just my opinion. Next year or last year would have been the better years to get high picks.

 

[Big Lurk]

listen to this beautiful chorus