Angry/frustrated fans what would it take to be

[Racer88]

If and when we win the Cup, I don’t believe Keefe will be our coach.

Or Dubas the GM

 

[Captain Crunch]

I'm convinced that you didn't watch the games at all.

What you said is not only counterintuitive, and counterproductive, but it's not anywhere close to accurate.

Matthews and Marner didn't just not fold under pressure, they led the team and series in scoring, dominated the games at even strength, scored the only goal in game 7, scored 1 or 2 goals in game 6, and blew the likes of Kucherov, Stamkos and Point out of the water.

It's just complete nonsense.

I'm sorry, but if you think that Matthews and Maerner were anywhere close to a problem for this team, I have no words to say that could possibly change your mind.

This is a classic case of pre-judging and then twisting facts to fit the narrative.

Okay, here is how I look at it. A lot of fans think Matthews and Marner need to play together. The problem that creates is Tavares (should never have signed him, we weren’t far enough along in the rebuild; also, the start of our cap crunch, which really became a concern when Dubas handed out all that money to the other 3 core players) and Nylander haven’t been able to develop any chemistry. And when Matthews was out with his injury, Marner and JT had a very good stretch together. But when Matthews returns, Keefe puts Matthews and Marner back together, along with reuniting JT and Nylander, despite the lack of success they have together at 5 on 5.
Now it’s very problematic to build a proper supporting cast when there is so little cap room available. And that has been a problem in every 1st round series we’ve had. We need more depth scoring, but haven’t been able to address it due to how close we always are to the cap.
We aren’t trading Tavares (very hard to sign future UFAs) or Nylander (either one would mean Dubas admitting he made a mistake in believing in HIS 4 core players).
So as usual, it’s wash, rinse, repeat here in Leafland.
We have gone out in the 1st round 6 straight years. Has the problem been Matthews and Marner can’t come up big when we need them the most, or is it because we don’t have the proper depth scoring to help us get over the hump? If it’s the depth scoring, do we have enough cap room to sign the depth players that would make the difference to get us through to the 2nd round?

 

[Al14]

Okay, here is how I look at it. A lot of fans think Matthews and Marner need to play together. The problem that creates is Tavares (should never have signed him, we weren’t far enough along in the rebuild; also, the start of our cap crunch, which really became a concern when Dubas handed out all that money to the other 3 core players) and Nylander haven’t been able to develop any chemistry. And when Matthews was out with his injury, Marner and JT had a very good stretch together. But when Matthews returns, Keefe puts Matthews and Marner back together, along with reuniting JT and Nylander, despite the lack of success they have together at 5 on 5.
Now it’s very problematic to build a proper supporting cast when there is so little cap room available. And that has been a problem in every 1st round series we’ve had. We need more depth scoring, but haven’t been able to address it due to how close we always are to the cap.
We aren’t trading Tavares (very hard to sign future UFAs) or Nylander (either one would mean Dubas admitting he made a mistake in believing in HIS 4 core players).
So as usual, it’s wash, rinse, repeat here in Leafland.
We have gone out in the 1st round 6 straight years. Has the problem been Matthews and Marner can’t come up big when we need them the most, or is it because we don’t have the proper depth scoring to help us get over the hump? If it’s the depth scoring, do we have enough cap room to sign the depth players that would make the difference to get us through to the 2nd round?

Yep, with the fab 4 taking up most of our cap, all Shanahan and Dubas can do is shuffle around the deck chairs on the Titanic hoping for this Leaf ship to NOT sink once again every spring.

Doing the same thing over and over, and getting the SAME results, is insane !!! MLSE should have addressed this problem and FIRED the entire front office! It's time for a new perspective and a new regime.

They might as well pay Campbell $10M, get rid of the non-supporting cast, and let Keefe ice only 5 players. They should be GOOD ENOUGH to get it done as they're being paid enough to do so. RIGHT?

 

[ShaneFalco]

Yep, with the fab 4 taking up most of our cap, all Shanahan and Dubas can do is shuffle around the deck chairs on the Titanic hoping for this Leaf ship to NOT sink once again every spring.

Doing the same thing over and over, and getting the SAME results, is insane !!! MLSE should have addressed this problem and FIRED the entire front office! It's time for a new perspective and a new regime.

They might as well pay Campbell $10M, get rid of the non-supporting cast, and let Keefe ice only 5 players. They should be GOOD ENOUGH to get it done as they're being paid enough to do so. RIGHT?

Come on - they got mad respect in the handshake line. That's good for another 2 years in leaf land

 

[MSZ]

Come on - they got mad respect in the handshake line. That's good for another 2 years in leaf land

Stamkos said that was a "tough series" too. That's something Keefe will brag about for years, "look guys, Tampa said we were tough to play against."

 

[ShaneFalco]

Stamkos said that was a "tough series" too. That's something Keefe will brag about for years, "look guys, Tampa said we were tough to play against."

Him and some fans

 

[Leaf Fans]

Here is the quote from Keefe after the game 7 loss to Tampa Bay:

After the loss Toronto coach Sheldon Keefe had a really lame take on his team and the handshake line, saying:

“We got a lot of respect in that (handshake) line from that team, which is nice to see. It was a much different tone and much different feeling of respect from the other side from what we’ve experienced previously. We’re certainly earning respect in the league but, again, we’re not in the respect game. We’re in the winning game.”

So he didn’t actually use the words “moral victory”, but you get the point, right?

Yes, the point is that it is great to get respect, but it doesn't really mean anything because we are in the winning game. BTW thanks for including the entire quote- too many people were quoting just the first part.

 

[Drytoast]

We got f***ed by the refs. Blatant penalties not called against us (like tugging on Matthews jersey for 5 f***ing seconds) were instantly called this series. Tampa was gifted a f***ing 5-3 full two minutes when they needed a tying goal. Our goal was called back on interference on a play I've never seen called again because it happens all the gd time in hockey.

Muzzin gets his stick sat on on the 2-1 go ahead goal in the seventh game?

We matched Tampa tit for tat and the refs made up the difference. And Tampa fans can't argue it. They know.

I'm more pissed off at the officiating than I am at the leafs

 

[pcruz]

We got f***ed by the refs. Blatant penalties not called against us (like tugging on Matthews jersey for 5 f***ing seconds) were instantly called this series. Tampa was gifted a f***ing 5-3 full two minutes when they needed a tying goal. Our goal was called back on interference on a play I've never seen called again because it happens all the gd time in hockey.

Muzzin gets his stick sat on on the 2-1 go ahead goal in the seventh game?

We matched Tampa tit for tat and the refs made up the difference. And Tampa fans can't argue it. They know.

I'm more pissed off at the officiating than I am at the leafs

The players still needed to do more.

While these things are true, regarding the officials, the players had 60 minutes to score 2 goals and didn't.

There are a million plays every game that can sway this way or that - Matthews has a shot stopped by the jersey at the elbow of Vasi and the puck goes the other way and Paul scores.

If the team got spanked like Florida and Edmonton did, then the team knows its is completely outclassed and needs significant changes.

We lost by 1 goal, in a 7 game series, playing the 2 time defending champions, called for double the PiM compared to the regular season, had a terrible power play...

Change any of those factors and we score another goal in Game 6 or 7 and take the series.

But that's not possible, so all we can do is have an honest reflection on this team, and the performance of this team this year.
What happened 2, 3, 50 years ago means nothing to how this team is evaluated.

Fans are upset that the team hasn't won in a long time and assume the players don't care.

This is their life and championships is their entire goal in their profession....

The players want to win more than you or I do.
Because it's their lives.
It's merely entertainment for the rest of us.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Clearly you don't watch the games because this team has had 6 years to win a playoff series, 3 with Marner and Matthews together as the main option and have nothing to show for it. I really can't believe it has to be spelled out for you but here we go.

Game 5 Columbus:
Matthews: 0 Points
Marner: 0 Points

Game 5 Montreal:
Matthews: 1 assist
Marner: 1 assist

Game 6 Montreal
Matthews: 0 points
Marner: 0 points

Game 7 Montreal
Matthews: 1 assist
Marner: 0 points

Game 6 Tampa
Matthews: 1 Goal
Marner: 0 points

Game 7 Tampa
Matthews: 1 assist
Marner: 1 assist

6 potential close out games Matthews and Marner's stat line is :
Matthews: 1 Goal 3 Assists
Marner: 2 Assists

If you think those numbers are fine that's on you. However I'd recommend giving your head a shake and waking up from lala land because you can't pay 11M for that type of production in close out games and expect to go ANYWHERE in the playoffs. Embarrassing that you're even trying to defend numbers like that. I literally want to puke thinking there are people that champion that kind of production. If you want to keep Marner and Matthews together going forward fine, but don't use their past production in potential elimination games as a reasoning for it. That's just ridiculous.

This is where the disconnect comes from, you’re putting too much weight of the past failures as a reason it won’t be successful in the future. People and players learn and grow. Them being unproductive in the past with different coaches and sets of circumstances didn’t mean they’d be unproductive this time.
So what’s your solution? Trade top 10 players and hope to get mystery boxes stuff that if you’re lucky become top 50 players?
How many points did Tampas big guns get in game 7?

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

This is where the disconnect comes from, you’re putting too much weight of the past failures as a reason it won’t be successful in the future. People and players learn and grow. Them being unproductive in the past with different coaches and sets of circumstances didn’t mean they’d be unproductive this time.
So what’s your solution? Trade top 10 players and hope to get mystery boxes stuff that if you’re lucky become top 50 players?
How many points did Tampas big guns get in game 7?

How much weight would you put on 6 years of first round exits including 3 where Mitch Marner and Auston Matthews are playing together and making 10M+? Different coaches and different set of circumstances are a moot point as 1. The whole post was about them playing together. They've only played together consistently under 1 coach. That one coach will be back next year
2. What more circumstances need to play out? In the Columbus series I think we can all agree we were the slightly better team. In the Montreal series we were the much better team. In the Tampa series it was a coin flip. Leafs lost in ever single one of those series and aside from the Tampa series where Marner and Matthews combined for 3 points in two games (you'd like to see more). They have been pretty lackluster. yes, out of the infinite amount of different scenarios that can play out in a series I'm sure the Leafs win a couple of them. That's not a reason to keep them together. There's a scenario where the Montreal Canadians win the Stanley Cup this year too.

I made my solution very clear. Split them up.

The first mistake you're making is assuming Tampa's big guns are only Stamkos, Point and Kucherov. Tampa's big guns include a #1 Norris Dman in Hedman and a Vezina goalie in Vasilevskiy. What Tampa's big guns did was hold the Leafs to 1 goal in their close out opportunity. Not bad. We aren't able to emulate that model because we have almost half our cap going to 4 forwards. Yes Tampa has a great advantage in no States Tax. Leafs also have some major perks as well. Look at Matthews and Marner's contract. These guys got massive signing bonuses in their first two contract years. A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. You'd think that something like that would bring down the asking price.

I understand what you're saying. Past performance doesn't predict future returns and you're 100% correct. However, they aren't irrelevant and the last thing I want to do is run this back 100% as is, no significant changes and be here in the exact same spot again inching one year closer to wasting the years of two of some of the best players this franchise has ever had.

 

[Drytoast]

The players still needed to do more.

While these things are true, regarding the officials, the players had 60 minutes to score 2 goals and didn't.

There are a million plays every game that can sway this way or that - Matthews has a shot stopped by the jersey at the elbow of Vasi and the puck goes the other way and Paul scores.

If the team got spanked like Florida and Edmonton did, then the team knows its is completely outclassed and needs significant changes.

We lost by 1 goal, in a 7 game series, playing the 2 time defending champions, called for double the PiM compared to the regular season, had a terrible power play...

Change any of those factors and we score another goal in Game 6 or 7 and take the series.

But that's not possible, so all we can do is have an honest reflection on this team, and the performance of this team this year.
What happened 2, 3, 50 years ago means nothing to how this team is evaluated.

Fans are upset that the team hasn't won in a long time and assume the players don't care.

This is their life and championships is their entire goal in their profession....

The players want to win more than you or I do.
Because it's their lives.
It's merely entertainment for the rest of us.

They matched Tampa tit for tat. I can't complain about their performance this year. There were games where Tampa looked like dog shit. There were games where we looked like dog shit.

But even in the most lopsided Tampa win...7-3 game 4. The power plays were 8 to f***ing 1. And we killed off 7. And even with a shit start and the ref's benching Matthews for almost a full period we still clawed back to 5-3 before we pulled the goalie and they got two empty netters.

Those refs? Were not asked to officiate for the rest of the playoffs. That's how great they were.

No gd playoff game should have the power play ratio of 8-1. And that was our worst game.

Refs f***ed us. Plain and simple.

 

[ECanuck]

On board again? Keeping in mind noone is getting fired.
Tough but for me bold moves would help- a piece of the core moved to help balance things out better. An out of nowhere big goalie acquisition (don't ask me how), and a different mindset surrounding this team which comes from Shanny. Change the narrative to losing is not acceptable here. No pat on the backs for regular season success. Keefe should be nervous instead of comfy

After all these years, for me it's winning the stanley cup. Until than I'm not going out of my way to catch leaf games in the regular season. Even when I can watch, most of the time I decide to do something else. I watched all the playoffs but next year I'm not even sure about that.